Hi all,

I tried out my second recipe from Peter Reinhart's Bread Baker's Apprentice on the weekend (an excellent book IMHO and thanks to the members of this website for putting me onto it), the multigrain extraordinaire loaf. The final loaves turned out reasonably well and taste great (although a little sweet for my liking). One interesting thing I noticed whilst I was making the dough however was that, despite the fact it is listed as a standard dough in the book in terms of wetness, once I had finished mixing all the ingredients together the dough was extremely wet. So much so that when I made the mistake of emptying it out onto the bench to attempt to knead it, all I ended up with was a sticky mess on the bench and all over my hands. After the addition of a fair amount of extra flour I was finally able to scrape enough together to put the dough back into the bowl and continue trying to knead it there using the "dough hook" method described in the book (whereby you turn the bowl in one direction and use a metal spoon like a dough hook to stir the dough in the other direction). About fifteen minutes later it had finally come together enough to turn out onto the bench again to continue kneading by hand. Despite this the dough was still rather sticky so I kept adding flour. Eventually it started to approach the mentioned goal in the book of a dough that is "tacky but not sticky" and it was ready to be left to rise.

After that there were no problems and, like I said, the final product was fine but I am just wondering if anyone else has tried this recipe and had the same sort of experience with the amount of flour in the recipe not being anywhere near enough? Unfortunately I kept adding flour about a handful at a time straight from the bag so I couldn't even hazard a guess exactly how much extra flour I ended up adding but it felt like quite a bit. It has got me a little worried now that if that was a standard dough what the wet doughs used for ciabattas and the pain a l'ancienne are going to be like!

Anyhow I'd love to hear anyone else's experience making this recipe if they've tried it.

Thanks,

Shaun

I have known for a while now that I would have to face my fear of wet doughs. Yes, fear. Absolute fear.

I am very good at breads that are relatively dry, and the only doughs that I've worked with that are wet weren't nearly as wet as the recipe I found here - Floydm's Daily Bread.

To be honest, I had a vague idea - at best - at what I was doing. I made a whole wheat poolish, and the rest of the flour was organic spelt. For good measure and texture, I added 1/4 cup flax seeds. I baked on a stone as directed.

For having so little idea about what I was doing, I feel pretty fantastic about the results. The rise was reasonably good, and the texture was perfect. I would hope for a slightly better crumb next time. But I'm not going to be picky after my first try.

Also, I wanted a harder crust, but I think that has to do with a) my stone and b) a better method of steaming.

I've been making baking powder biscuits and scones for nearly 20 years now, and using the same recipes. In the past four or five months I've been running into real trouble with my doughs. My biscuit dough and scone doughs are becoming nearly batters. I'm having to nearly double the amount of flour in relation to liquids in order to have dough that I can even remotely handle, and the resulting product is not producing great oven spring or rising properly like it used it. And using a bench knife to cut it is a pain; the doughs are sticking to the knife, which is not something I struggled with before. 

I can only assume that my problems with biscuits and scones are related somehow to a change in the moisture content of my water, but I didn't think that it would throw my recipes off this much. My cookies and breads don't seem to be affected much, if at all. Does anyone have any ideas about:

1. Whether or not this level of variance can be attributed to the flour (I can't think of anything else)

2. How I can assess the flour I buy in the future for moisture

3. How I can correct my recipes when working with this particular flour. 

4. Other ideas?

For the record, I'm using bulk-bin Giusto's organic unbleached AP flour. 

Any ideas are appreciated. This is ridiculous!

I want to learn more about S&F. I like the method. The dough feels good.

I've looked at other threads but not found the answers to two questions:

First, in ABED some breads call for S&F and others for kneading. Besides rich doughs preferring to be kneaded, what about the dough or formula might tell you to use one method over the other? For example, the wild rice & onion is kneaded, but the WW is stretched. I'm thinking about it in regards to working with older recipes, and rather than blindly experimenting, I'd like to understand more about the likelihood of success. Then I'll experiment.

And second, some bakers seem to use longer intervals, up to 30-45 minutes, between folds. All the recipes in ABED call for being done in 40. Why?

Thanks for your insight.
Jerry

I made Pain a l'Ancienne bread from BBA and was amazed at the outcome. I had never worked with a cold fermentation process before. While it is a much wetter dough, the hands-on time in terms of kneading and manipulation is little-to-none compared to other dough recipes I've tried. I turned my Pain into ciabatta vs. a baguette (we are more likely to eat sammiches in this house). The finished bread had a moist crumb, but still had air pockets much like the ciabtta bread I'd made earlier. The taste was where I really noticed the difference: nutty, a bit sweet, and also a sour note as well with a chewy crust. We loved it! My blog shows my step-by-step of the dough through final baking. http://veganthyme.blogspot.com.

A week ago,  I bought my first rye and whole wheat flour, they were imported from Germany.  I could not understand a word on the description,  but I was determined to try my hand on these flour.  Here I am trying my first rye and whole wheat bread.  Honestly,  I have no idea what it is suppose to look like or taste like,  as I'm not a fan of rye bread usually,  I'm a white loaf freak.  Surprisingly,  this recipe is easy, and the taste is really good.  I still need to work on my shaping and proofing timing though.  

It;s a wet dough to work with,  I'm now aching all over from the kneading,  3 different types of kneading just to get dough ready.  Wish I have a machine to help me with.  I'm still waiting for my birthday present...

The taste is pretty good though,  seems like the poolish had helped with this outcome.  Is it suppose to look like that?  Unfortunately,  Barry's artisan did have any pictures of the dough he made, and I found many rye and whole wheat that are more dense.  Am I getting this right?

Jenny

Recipe Here:

Jenny's Blog on Poolish Rye and Whole Wheat Bread

When I knew nothing about bread baking and just did the no-knead bread it worked beautifully every time.  Now I am developing more serious interest in making bread and nothing is working whatsoever.   

I am trying to make Jason’s Ciabatta http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2984/jasons-quick-coccodrillo-ciabatta-bread.  I don’t have a bread mixer but I wanted to make Jason’s recipe anyway, by hand, as some people say it can be done.

I quote campcook  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/12994/best-ciabatta-recipe:

I have been making Jason's recipe with variations for some time.  It is very forgiving and produces excellent results every time.  I have flattened it into pizza, folded in extra ingredients, used fresh ground whole wheat flour and cooked it over a campfire -- all to the raves of my tasters.

 Recently, I started doing it almost no knead with no mechanical mixer.  I stir the dry ingredients thoroughly, then stir in ice cold water and let it rise over night.  (We are camping in the mountains so it is very cold at night but I still put it in a cooler to slow the rise.)  In the morning, I (wet) stretch and fold it a couple of times before dividing it for the final 40 minute rise.  Each loaf is wet stretched again before baking one at a time in my camper oven.  I have a pizza stone in the oven to help hold temperature constant.  Each loaf gets 25 to 30 minutes at roughly 500 degrees ( we are at 7000 feet here.)  The results are just fantastic -- big open holes, chewy crust and wonderful flavor.

I have flattened this dough into pizza or near pizza shapes and just shortened the bake time.  I have added slivers of garlic at times, nuts, whole grains and raisins at other times - it all worked.

He says (in the boldface above) that he is getting the same result from stretching the very wet dough about a couple of times when  the recipe directs to beat the hell out of dough….upto 30 mins at high speed(??) 

Here is what is happening to me:

I mix the ingredients together lightly and after a few mins rest I turn the wet dough with a spatula a few times, sort of like stretch and fold in a bowl.  It seems to firm up and become smooth and shiny but still floppy.  But I am (was) assuming at this stage I am far, far away from what the dough is supposed to be as per recipe because people are beating it in a mixer for a long while before they say it ‘comes together’.  I now throw the dough on a board and do the French fold which is touted to be great for very wet doughs.  But, within a few turns, instead of progressing towards coming together,the dough gets GOOPIER  and WETTER and breaks down completely.  As I try to lift it the dough drips for my fingers.  What wasn’t pancake batter a few moments ago suddenly turned into stretchy batter.  It is still shiny but instead of smooth it looks rough, like cellulite. I scrape it off the board into a bowl and let it go.   The yeast works because I see a lot of bubble eventually but NO rising in the dough.

I have tried this six times now and sometimes with different flours.  It is happening every time.

Is it possible that the very wet dough develops gluten very quickly and then breaks down?   Then I really need only a few folds?  How can dough be this sensitive?!  Then how is it that all those happy people beat it for so long?  Is it that the gluten does break down while mixing but they don’t notice it because things are moving in the mixer but strangely the gluten comes back together after prolonged mixing?  The yeast not raising the dough is kind of telling isn’t it?

Or, if not the above, then what? 

Some people have stretched and folded several times but I am not getting there.  The dough seems to disintegrate right at the beginning. 

I want to almost buy a mixer to do this kind of dough.  God, I am restraining myself not to do that.  I want to be able to do this by hand producing the same bread at the end.  It has got to be possible.  No?    

Can anyone help me with what I am doing wrong and what I should try? Any insight from fellow, but, experienced bread bakers will be so appreciated.

 Meanwhile I am still working on it to test the variables.  And I will post what happens. Maybe I will just go ahead and bake whatever happens and see.

Many thanks for taking the time to read this long post!

K.

Hello,

I have been on a quest to make bagels.  I have tried many recipes with the exception of Peter Reinhart's.  The only problem with my bagels is that, although they taste delicious, they have been turning out a bit flat.  I have checked the recipes thoroughly and believe that I am measuring all ingredients perfectly.  Any thoughts on what could be causing this.  The recipes I have used are as follows:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/bagels-recipe

http://www.bakingbites.com/2007/06/homemade-bagels/

The recipes advise to let the dough rest before poking a hole in them.  The trouble is, that my shaped bagel balls seem to spread out a bit while they rest and seem to rise a bit.  When I go to enlarge the hole they defate just slightly.  Could my dough be to wet.  All of my measurements are correct.  Should I be using a flour with a higher protien content?  Currently I am using Gold Medal Bread Flour and King Arthur Bread Flour.

Thanks for your advice! 

Skylar

Hello,

I had my first go at making bagels today.  I used my KitchenAid stand mixer for the kneading.  When my dough was mixing, however, it seemed to be really very wet and sticky.  I decided to add more flour so the dough would clear the sides of the mixer bowl and only cling to the very base of the bowl as is customary of most doughs.  I used Gold Medal bread flour for the recipe and measured using the spoon and sweep method yielding just under 4.5 ounces weight per cup of flour.  Any thoughts as to why the recipe could produce a dough so wet?  It was a very wet day.  Should I have used a higher stregnth flour do you think, hence more absorbtion?  Or is this recipe just off the mark?  The recipe proportions are as follows.

1 Tbsp yeast

1 Tbsp sugar

1 3/4 cups warm water

4 cups bread flour

Some advice would be great!  Thanks!

I am really bad at getting acceptable results with wet dough. I'd like to improve and start making baguettes etc. It seems to me that my problems have to do with mixing the dough without it sticking to everything and never seeming to get it to the point where it can be an actual cohesive piece of dough. Another problem that I always have is getting it to rise properly. Instead of rising into nice loaves anything I make with wet dough just flattens out in a puddle as soon as I start getting it ready to go into the oven.

I was thinking that I could solve the problem by getting a mixer of some sort so that I could mix the wet dough with that and avoid touching it as much as possible.

first question is what kind of mixer would help me with this but that I can get for $400 or less?

second question is whether any of you have previously struggled with wet dough and making baguettes and getting anything to rise and not come out of the oven as a flat brick-like object and who have managed to overcome these obstacles? I would REALLY appreciate any advice, tips, or any other information that you could pass along to me.

Thanks!

Annalise