I (am very new to bread baking and) want to use the stretch and fold technique that I have been reading about here.  I don’t have a mixer and I want make very wet doughs like for focaccia and ciabatta.   I have done the no-knead method and autolyse and know very well that you can make tasty bread without any kneading whatsoever.  And I am intrigued by the knowledge that whipping the day light out of a dough results in over oxygenation and actually less tasty bread and therefore leaning ever more toward stretch and fold.  

I have not had a chance to read the PR and JH books that describe/discuss this method only the videos and chats on this site.  Is it possible to give some generalized guide lines?

 I am confused about the following:

1)      After you mix in the yeast how do you know how many times you ought to stretch and fold the dough before you let it rest?  Some advice is just once to quite a few times?

2)      How do you decide how long you should let the dough rest before you stretch and fold again? Some advice is as short as 10 mins or up to 30 mins.

3)      How do you know how many cycles of S & F you should do?

4)      How can you tell when the right amount of gluten is developed?                                                          I have a specific question here.  For example in http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2984/jasons-quick-coccodrillo-ciabatta-bread  or Rose Levy Berenbaum’s sheet foccacia or http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/3621/quick-rustic-ciabatta-pizza-recipe-full-howto-pics it tells you how long to mix with a mixer at a certain speed for a certain length of time and how the dough will suddenly come together.  Not having seen the dough prepared with a mixer is there some way to tell from S & F that you have achieved the same?

5)      And importantly why can’t I just do a bunch of S & Fs all at once (as kneading used to be) let the dough rest and not hover over it?  Why are the intermediate rest periods important?  Would it not work if I did a bunch of S & Fs and then let the dough rest?

6)      Related to (5) can I simplify this process in some way and do S & F only once or twice?

7)      And then is doing S & F in the bowl just as good as taking the dough out on a counter?

8)      Can you actually over do the S & F and ruin your bread?

Last night, just to see, I mixed water and flour at 100% and 113% hydration and let it autolyse.  The dough(s) did firm up quite a bit after the 1 hour autolyse.  I gave it a few S & F in the bowl with a rubber spatula and that seemed to move things along a little further.  I just couldn’t tell if the gluten was developed as the recipes described they should be.  Would having added yeast changed things?  Those goops are in the fridge.  I will add some yeast to them tonight and see where that takes me.

Well!  This is a long post.  Some of these questions must be so naïve but I hope some them are relevant.

Thank you for any input!

K.

There are two videos of Peter on Amazon in conjunction with his new book. One shows how to load loaves in the oven and steam them; the other, how to do stretch and fold with an 80% hydration dough.

http://www.amazon.com/Peter-Reinharts-Artisan-Breads-Every/dp/1580089984/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257007108&sr=8-1

--Pamela

The last couple of days I've studyed the stretch-and-fold/French fold videos, read the discussion threads that deal with it, printed some things out to study some more, and then reviewed everything a few more times.  I have the impression that once you get it, it's really too simple to even explain adequately (if that makes sense). But I don't think I've got it yet. Today I tried to apply the techniques to a double batch of Struan (the recipe posted under Favourite Recipes) and the results were not stellar (loaves were smallish.) So I could use some help figuring out where I went wrong.  I should explain first that I probably introduced too many variables when I should have stuck with just stretch-and-fold. Instead I also tried starting out in a non-preheated oven (a whole other discussion); and, since I had some potato cooking water in the fridge, I substituted that for the water. It may not have helped that I doubled the recipe either; it meant that I had to cut it into 3 pieces which may have undone some of the efforts to keep the dough structure intact. Anyway, here are my questions:

1. The recipe said to knead the dough. I didn't. I mixed with a spoon, then by hand, mostly trying to get everything to stick together without kneading. Then I let it rest for about 10 minutes. At that point I wasn't sure how wet it would be because I hadn't handled it very much yet. It didn't seem as wet as the dough in some of the French fold videos. Is this correct so far? Should I/could I have done a little kneading? Should I have added any water for a dough that looked more like the Bertinet sweet dough? Is it okay to substitute alternate techniques when a recipe tells you to knead, or is it better to use recipes that are designed for stretch and fold?

2. After a 10-minute rest, I just folded twice with one turn and put the dough back in the bowl. It was pretty tacky at that point and seemed to want to stay in a ball (not stretch).  I let it rest about 20 minutes, then folded again.  This seemed like it could be a long labour intensive process.  Should I have done a few more folds at the very beginning until the dough was more elastic? I was afraid of overhandling.

3. I let the dough rest again for about 30 minutes, then sprinkled flour on my work surface.  This time I gently flattened the dough and stretched it out into a thick square.  It handled nicely. I folded the sides over on each other, turned it and folded the two ends over each other, and put it back in the bowl.  I poked it here and there to make it look like I knew what I was doing but I suspect that didn't add anything. At this point I thought I would just let it ferment for awhile, till double. Should I have done more rests/stretch-and-fold before leaving it for an hour? How do I know when to keep up with intermitent folds and when to trust the dough?

4. I was starting to run out of time so I left the bowl covered with loose plastic and a cookie sheet over that in a sunny spot in the kitchen.  It probably got to be 75 or 80 in the bowl, and it was doubled in about an hour. Was it a bad thing to leave it in an extra warm spot?

5. Now I had to cut it into pieces, since it was a double recipe (6 cups flour plus other grains). I hate cutting a round mound of dough into 3; impossible to divide equally. At this point I was confused about the best way to form the loaves. I also wasn't sure how to deal with the middle piece which had been cut on both long sides so that all the holes were exposed.  I folded one piece like a letter (2 folds, no turns) and let it rest, then I rolled it jelly roll style as in jmonkey's sandwich shaping video. I found it hard to get it elongated and to tuck in the ends, maybe because I was worried I was destroying the structure. It would have been happier as a boule I think.  The other two pieces I tried to roll and get surface tension by stretching it under and pinching a seam. One of those I had to bake free form because I only have two pans. I didn't feel that comfortable with the degree of surface tension.  The outside seemed a bit weak to me. Corrections here? How do you get that tight jelly roll while still having the dough long enough to fill the ends of the pan? Is it possible to make it too tight, thereby ruining the airpocket structure? After cutting the dough into pieces, could I have done anything to increase surface tension on the cut sides?

6. At this point I put the loaves in the oven for final proofing. I had warmed the oven a teeny bit, then added a bowl with boiling water for humidity. They rose okay (one hour) although I might have let them get a little higher if I hadn't had to go out.  They crested over the pan.  When I slashed them though, they seemed a bit weak and then deflated a little with the cuts (the knife was pretty sharp). This surprised me because I don't think I had overproofed. I put them back in the oven and set the temp to 350 as per the recipe.  I left them in my husband's charge at that point, so I didn't watch what kind of oven spring I got.  Seeing the loaves when I returned, I don't think there could have been a lot.  Should I have turned the oven to a hotter temperature to start, then lowered it after 15 minutes or so? Should I have preheated and not listened to all those good folks who have been saving on energy while still enjoying great bread?

As usual, the results tasted better than they looked, especially with creamy chicken wild rice soup. I just would have liked to have put a nice big loaf in my freezer.  Any questions answered or errors spotted would be appreciated!

Call me a dummy or accuse me of not paying attention, I don't care. I'm confused about Stretch&Fold and French Fold. They're the latest, and I agree they're great. But I'm confused about what they are.