The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts


Song Of The Baker's picture

The Rye I was Thinking Of! - Kind of

November 8, 2012 - 3:09pm -- Song Of The Baker

Here is a type of Rye bread I found that is very close to the one I was trying to find in this previous post:

This rye is pretty much what I was after.  Dense, dry, sturdy, stiff crumb.  It is called Klosterbrot Roggenbrot.  Here are some photos.  If anyone has a good recipe similar to this please share.  I would love to make this.

Wade37's picture

Is it practical to maintain the Full Sour (of 3 Stage Detmolder Process) for future use ?

October 15, 2012 - 9:34am -- Wade37

I use a 100% rye starter and produce tasty, but not notably sour, rye + wholemeal loaves and I am considering trying the Detmolder 3 Stage Process to increase my output sourness and flavour. The procedure is lengthy and necessitates critical temperature control.

My question is : Is development of Refreshment/ Basic Sour/ Full Sour stage mixes necessary for each bake or can a portion of Full Sour be maintained (e.g. refrigeration + feeding, as in the case of conventional starters) for future use ?

ph_kosel's picture

I had a hand at making a sourdough Limpa loaf similar to something I had at a potluck recently.  The Limpa I had at that party was very moist, around 50% rye, and flavored with molasses, fennel, caraway, anise and perhaps orange zest.  I found a recipe that may well be the same one HERE, and followed it.  I decided to bake it as a pan loaf instead of as an artisan loaf because the dough is extremely moist and (because of the high rye content) incredibly sticky.

This is probably the best of several Limpa recipes I've tried.  The seed mix and orange zest, coupled with the molasses and the tang of the sourdough, gives it a unique, rather festive flavor.  I think it might be even better with some raisins in it but I've never heard of Limpa with raisins.

These are the ingredients I used for this sourdough (there's also a yeasted version on the breadtopia site linked to above):

Water: 400 grams, 1 3/4 cups
Sourdough Starter: 70 grams, 1/3 cup
Dark Rye Flour: 245 grams, 1 3/4 cups
Unbleached Bread Flour: 245 grams, 1 3/4 cups
Molasses(full flavor, not mild): 44 grams, 2 Tbs.
Fennel Seed: 8 grams, 1 Tbs.
Anise Seed: 2 grams, 1 tsp.
Caraway Seed: 3 grams, 1 tsp.
Salt: 12 grams, 1 3/4 tsp.
Zest of 1 Orange

Here are a couple photos:

ericb's picture

Hamelman light rye without yeast?

October 14, 2012 - 8:25am -- ericb

I am planning on baking a loaf of Hamelman's Light Rye tonight, but I'm considering making it without commercial yeast. I was wondering if anyone has experience doing this with this specific recipe.

For doughs developed using the Detmolder method, Hamelman says that commercial yeast is unnecessary, provided the baker builds in some extra time for proofing. However, he does not give a specific time. Besides, I'm not sure that this applies to doughs made using the simpler method outlined in the Light Rye recipe.

dabrownman's picture


It has been a while since we did our Hemp Bag take on Empress Ying’s 36 hour baguettes.  The last time the hemp seeds made for some pretty dopey baking according to Hanseata.  She is rarely wrong when it comes to seeds and especially  ….eeerrrr…. baking with them.   They were delicious baguettes but lacked full depth of flavor and tasty character of a bread that has at least 15% whole grains in it.


Luckily EY (Empress Ying) has already set the standard for multi-grain baguettes here like she has for 36 hour baguettes galaxy wide here:  They are terrific!

 Of course I didn't find her perfect post until after my bake was done so all of the good things I learned from it were not used :-)  Her experiment starts at 20% whole grain and moves up to 40% and she increases her hydration as the whole grain rise with 80% hydro for her 20% whole grain version.


I kept my hydration at 75% for this 16% version but would have used 78% had I thought properly even without her post.  I know it sounds like a lot to expect from a doofus like me but my apprentice has been testy of late and asleep at the oven much of the time.


My whole grains were different than txfarmer’s too.  We used spelt, rye and whole wheat.  Our 36 hours was different than hers too and wasn't even 36 hours either.   We just can’t seem to stick to any kind of schedule since we retired.  Instead of a 12 hour autolyse, we did a 6 hour room temperature one with the salt.


After the mix of levain and autolyse came together, we did 8 minutes of French slap and folds because my apprentice loves the sound of the dough smacking the marble - makes her go insane and start barking very loudly until things quiet down.  After a 15 minute rest we continued on with (3) S&F’s every 30 minutes for the next hour and a half.   We allowed the dough to ferment for an hour before we retarded it for 20 hours instead of 24.  We then took it out of the fridge with the intent of baking it but after 1 hour of warm up, pre-shape, final shape (16” long) and into a rice floured basket for final proof, we only let it proof for an hour and then chucked it into a plastic trash can liner and into the fridge for another 14 hours of retard. 


EY said that she thought it could stand some more hours of retard and Ian just gave it 30 so we though a total of 34 hours of retard instead of 24 might be OK if the bread gods were too drunk on godliness to notice. 


After the 2nd retard was done we let the dough, still inside the trash can liner sit on the counter for 3 hours before firing up Old Betsy at 500 F for a 45 minute pre-heat with 2 of Sylvia’s steaming bread pans on the bottom rack with the stone on the rack above.

The baguettes were upturned onto the parchment lined peel, poorly slashed 4 times each, this type of massacre should be illegal by the way,  and slid onto the stone with a ½ cup of water thrown into the bottom of the oven as we closed to door to make sure the steam was maximized. We immediately turned the oven down to 450 F and let the bread steam for 10 minutes.


The steam was removed, the oven turned down to 425 F convection this time, and the baguettes were baked for another 15 minutes.  The baguettes were turned 180 degrees every 5 minutes for the last 15 minutes to make sure they baked evenly.


When we test them for temperature they were already at 210 F so we took then out of the oven and put them on the cooling rack.  They were very crispy (and stayed that way), blistered, nicely browned and we could hold them up by the ears – well at least 1 of the 2 we could.  The slashing was still primitive - practice isn't helping much  -  but no giving up is allowed :-)


What surprised us was the crumb was not as open as we wanted and thought we would get after our last baguette bake and the even our last boule bake for that matter.  Well you can’t have everything, every time like Empresses do unless you know what you are doing and do it :-)  Maybe starting off with 8 minutes of French Slap and folds was not the right thing to do. 

Do you think it would help if we followed txfarmer’s directions exactly?  Possibly!  Well, tell that to my apprentice!These baguettes do taste great, much better than plain white ones or even ones with hemp seeds in them with our taste buds.  Can’t wait to have some bruschetta tonight.

16% Whole Multi-grain Baguettes







Build 1


Rye Sour Starter


















Total Starter






Total Starter






Levain % of Total






Dough Flour






Whole Spelt



Dark Rye



Whole Wheat



Dough Flour












Dough Hydration






Total Flour






T. Dough Hydration



Whole Grain %






Total Weight




isand66's picture

I decided to make a couple of breads to bring to my cousin's house for Rosh Hashana this weekend and she requested I make my Farro Hard Cider Multi-grain.  I didn't have any hard cider available nor did I have time to make a Farro starter so I used a nice Long Island toasted lager and substituted my stock AP starter which I recently refreshed.

I also ground some soft white wheat berries I just purchased at the store from Bob's Red Mill.  The package says this is similar to a pastry flour and it did seem to make a very soft flour.

For the soaker I added some rolled oats in addition to the cracked wheat I used last time.

I have to say the second version of this bread is definitely better than the first try.

This is a nice hearty bread great with some cheese or stew or for a nice pastrami or corned beef sandwich.

AP Starter

227 grams AP Flour

71 grams AP Seed Starter

151 grams Water at Room Temperature (80-90 degrees F.)

Mix ingredients in a bowl until thoroughly combined.  Cover the bowl and let it sit at room temperature for around 8 hours.  The starter should almost double when ready to proceed.  You can either mix in final dough or put in refrigerator for at most 1 day before using.  If your kitchen is warmer than mine which is usually about 70-72 degrees with my air-conditioning you can proceed sooner.


60 grams Cracked Wheat

40 grams Rolled Oats

280 grams Boiling Water

Mix ingredients together in a bowl and cover.  Let rest for 30 minutes or longer until ready to use.

Drain the liquid before mixing in the final dough.

Main Dough Ingredients

425 grams Refreshed AP Starter (65% hydration) from above

100 grams Soaker from above

190 grams Freshed Milled Farro Flour

80 grams Quinoa Flour

75 grams Wheat Germ

21 grams Potato Flour

65 grams AP Flour

55 grams First Clear Flour (KAF Brand)

120 grams Freshly Ground Soft Wheat Flour

60 grams Pumpernickel Flour (Dark Rye or Course Rye Flour)

50 grams Molasses

16 grams Sea Salt or Table Salt

445 grams Toasted Lager


Mix the flours with the Lager and molasses in your mixer or by hand for 1 minute.  Next cut the starter into small pieces and put in bowl and mix for 1 minute to incorporate all the ingredients.  Let the dough autolyse for 20 minutes to an hour in your bowl and make sure to cover it.  Next add in the salt, and the soaker and mix on speed #1 for 3 minutes or by hand and on speed #2 for 2 minutes.  The dough should have come together in a ball and be tacky but not too sticky.

Next take the dough out of the bowl and place it on your work surface.  Do a stretch and fold and rest the dough uncovered for 10 minutes.  After the rest do another stretch and fold and cover the dough and let it rest for 10 minutes.  Do one more stretch and fold and put the dough into a lightly oiled bowl and let it sit at room temperature covered for 2 hours.  After 2 hours you can put the dough into the refrigerator for 24 hours or up to 2 days before baking.  Feel free to do some additional S & F's if you feel it is necessary.  I baked the bread about 24 hours later.

The next day (or when ready to bake) let the dough sit out at room temperature for 1.5 - 2  hours.

Next, form the dough into your desired shape and put them in floured bannetons, bowls or on a baking sheet and let them rise covered for 2 hours or until they pass the poke test.  Score the loaves as desired and prepare your oven for baking with steam.

Set your oven for 500 degrees F. at least 30 minutes before ready to bake.  When ready to bake place the loaves into your on  your oven stone with steam and lower the temperature immediately to 450 degrees.   The total baking time was around 45 minutes.  When both loaves are golden brown and reached an internal temperature of 200 degrees F. you can remove them from the oven.

Let the loaves cool down for at least an 6 hours or so before eating as desired.


dabrownman's picture

Typo after typo,  My left fnger doesn't know what my right finger is doing.  This is way worse than dyslexia, which I had but sold to Lebanese rug trader and a lot more painful too.

With plenty of rye, WW and semolina bread in the freezer we baked off another as close to white bread as we ever make for the bread winners daily lunches.   My wife prefers Oroweat whole wheat bread but we are slowly winning her over to SD bread in the 25%-35 % whole grain range.


This one was 25% home ground whole grain bread with spelt, rye and WW ground from berries.   The remainder of the flours used for the bread were grocery bought bread flour and AP milled by KAF.


The bread baked up nicely browned with small to medium blisters.  The crust came out crisp but went soft and chewy as it cooled.  The bloom and spring were OK but nothing special.   The crumb was moderately open, soft, chewy and slightly glossy.  This bread had a bolder SD tang right after being cooled and we assume it will get better tomorrow. 


If you like David Snyder’s Pugliesi Capriosso and San Joaquin or Pierre Nury’s Rustic Light Rye you will like this bread.  For a nearly white bread it sure is tasty.  Just delicious.


The formula follows the pictures.


The levain starter was equal amounts of rye sour, desem and spelt (a new one that we will soon convert to Kamut) and built up over (2) 3 hour and (1) 2 hour build.

The levain was refrigerated overnight after nit had doubled along with the autolysed flours which included the entire formula less the levain.  There were no sprouts, scald, soaker or add ins with the exception of the red and white home made malts, some ground flax seed and a tiny bit of honey.

The next day the autolyse and the levain were removed from the fridge and sat on the counter for 1 hour to warm.  The two were combined in the KA mixing bowl and kneaded with the dough hook for 8 minutes on KA2.  The dough pulled away from the sides at the 7 minute mark.  It came together easily for the 75% hydration dough.

It was rested in an oiled plastic tub, sized for a 836 g loaf, for 20 minutes before (4) sets of S& F’s were performed all in the tub.  The first set was 25 stretches with a ¼ turn each time.  The next set was 5 stretches less all the way down to the last one of 10 for a total of 70 stretches.

After the last S&F the dough was rested for 60 minutes before being pre-shaped and then shaped into a boule and placed into a rice floured basket seam side up.  The basket was sized to allow the dough to double when it reached the top.

Sandwixh on the left made with last bakes Semolina Bread - good but not great like this bake.

The boule was them placed into a plastic trash can liner, the end closed with a rubber band.  The tented and basketed boule was placed in the refrigerator for a 12 hour retard.

Makes a great grilled hot dog bun! cantaloupe, cherries, black grapes, chips and pico de gillo. 1/2 ea plum and peach, 3 kinds of pickles and some Mexican beans - a typical but still a nice lunch to feature this  fine bread.

After 12 hours the mini oven was preheated to 500 F and (2) of Sylvia’s steaming cups with dish rage rolled up were micro waved until boiling.  The dough was covered with parchment and then the bottom of the mini’s supplied broiler pan.  The whole stack was overturned and the basket removed.

It was quickly slashed ¼” deep with a single sided razor blade, the steaming cups placed in the corner and the whole apparatus loaded into the mini oven’s bottom rack for 15 minutes of steam as the oven was turned down to 450 F.   When the steaming cups were removed at the 15 minute mark the oven was turned down to 400 F convection this time.

The boule was rotated every 5 minutes for the next 20 minutes when the boule was tested for temperature.   It was at 208 F and deemed done.   The mini oven was turned off and the bread allowed to sit in it with the door ajar for another 10 minutes to further crisp the skin.  It was then removed to a cooking rack.


Multi grain SD Starter - 25% Whole Grain Sourdough Boule     
Mixed StarterBuild 1Build 2 Build 3Total%
Multi-grain SD Starter **4500459.54%
Dark Rye1500154.24%
Total Starter135502521059.32%
** 15 g each Rye Sour, Desem & Spelt SD Starters   
Levain % of Total25.12%    
Dough Flour      %   
Non - Diastatic Red  Malt20.56%   
Wheat Germ102.82%   
Dark Rye102.82%   
Spelt 102.82%   
Ground Flax Seed102.82%   
Diastatic White Malt20.56%   
Bread Flour10028.25%   
Dough Flour354100.00%   
Water 26073.45%   
Dough Hydration73.45%    
Total Flour471.5    
T. Dough Hydration74.76%    
Whole Grain %25.77%    
Hydration w/ Adds75.29%    
Total Weight836    



breaducation's picture

As you can probably tell from my name(it's Jorgen in case you're wondering) I have Scandinavian roots in my family. My great grandparents were immigrants from Norway and while I don't speak Norwegian nor have I ever been there, I've always felt a connection to Norway and the Scandinavian countries in general(I almost always root for the Norwegians when the Olympics come around, which for some reason is much more successful in the winter.). So when I was pointed, by breadsong, to this article and formula, written by Chad Robertson, I got excited and knew I had to give it a try.

I was further interested in trying this bread when I stopped off at Bar Tartine's new sandwich shop on the way home from work one day. This is where Chad Robertson is doing most of his bread experimentation these days so I was hoping to taste something new and interesting. I went in to try and get one of the Smørrebrød(an open faced danish sandwich) but upon entering I was informed that they had just closed. However, they also informed me that they would be happy to make one for me anyways, on the house, so I could get a taste of what they do there! What great customer service! I knew I would be coming back even before I got to taste the Smørrebrød. The Smørrebrød I ended up getting consisted of eggplant, white bean puree and a whole roasted tomato all served on an extremely delicious and seed-dense slice of rye. It was sooo good. Upon comparing the bread in the Smørrebrød to the formula posted on Food Arts I was fairly certain they were one in the same or at least very similar.

Smørrebrød from Bar Tartine's Sandwich Shop

I've already been doing a bit of rye baking recently(See: Sprouted Vollkornbrot with Seeds) and loving the flavor, heartiness and keeping qualities, however, Chad Robertson's formula brings some interesting new ideas to the table that I've never tried before. For one thing, the loaf is partially hydrated with buttermilk and beer. Such a combination sounded too delicious to resist. His loaf is also extremely seed and rye berry dense. The total seeds and rye berries in the formula add up to over 170% of the flour! I'd certainly never pushed seed content that high in any loaf so it was all the more enticing(I love trying new things). Finally I had never retarded a loaf with a high percentage of rye because of concerns about high levels of sourness but Robertson goes for it. And when in doubt, listen to Robertson.

This dough was a little bit scary in the beginning stages of the mix. It started out extremely wet. At first I was seriously concerned that there was a misprint in the formula but as I added seeds and rye berries into the dough, and they started to absorb some of the water, the dough came together some and became more manageable. Let me warn you though that it is still an extremely wet dough so don't panic if you give it a shot. Also, there are no guidelines as to what the dough should feel like at each stage. I would have to rely on the times and temperatures he states in the formula and my own baker's intuition to get through.

I ended up modifying the process some by switching the retarding to the bulk instead of shaped to accommodate my schedule. I also doubled the sunflower seeds because I didn't have pumpkin seeds on hand and used my remaining sprouted rye from my Vollkornbrot bake in place of some of the soaked rye berries. In the article Robertson mentions using sprouted grain in several of his breads so I felt like this would be a proper fit.

This loaf is my new favorite rye bread! I love how many seeds there are. It's almost like you're eating seeds held together with rye and spelt flour which is quite pleasing actually. Also there is only a slight hint of sourness despite retarding the dough. The only disappointment is that the beer and buttermilk flavors don't really come through. I think if I was to make this loaf again I would increase these two ingredients. Perhaps even replace all the water with beer.

I ended up taking a few slices of this loaf with me on a rock climbing session in place of energy bars. It worked great! One or two slices gave me plenty of energy and kept me feeling nourished for hours  without the sugar rush feeling. I'm guessing that was the effect of all the seeds, whole grains and good carbs slowly digesting. I may have to try adding some dried fruit to the bread next to truely make it the ultimate climbing snack.

You can check out my modified formula and process at aBreaducation.


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