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Song Of The Baker's picture

Rye Sourdough Starter Questions

March 11, 2013 - 10:46am -- Song Of The Baker
Forums: 

I have a few questions regarding rye bread using mature rye sourdough starter.

In using my starter for SF style sourdough breads, JH 5 Grain Levain breads, baguettes, etc.  I have found a pleasant amount of sour/tang come out in the finished loaf - or none at all with baguettes, which is what I would expect.

Recently, trying some rye breads such as a 40% rye, I find the end result a bit TOO sour for my liking.

Anomalous's picture
Anomalous

I've experimented a lot with sourdoughs but this is my first 100% spelt effort. I used 60g wholemeal stoneground rye starter from the fridge to make a levain with 80g white spelt flour and 80g water and left it at room temperature for about 3 hours until it was nice and bubbly.

 

Then I added another 220g of white spelt and 60g water, mixed thoroughly and left covered for 15 minutes. Next, I added 5g salt and a good glug of olive oil and mixed thoroughly then put it onto an oiled worktop and did a bit of folding and stretching for about a minute and formed it into a round. I waited 15 minutes and did another minute of folding and stretching and shaping into a round, and repeated the process another couple of times before forming it into a slightly longer shape and putting it into a floured towel with its ends held together by bulldog clips to form a kind of hammock shape. 

After about four hours it seemed to have risen enough so I turned it out into my preheated combo cooker, slashed it and put it into the preheated oven at 230C. I took the lid off after 18 minutes and baked it for a further 20 minutes at the same temperature.

I'm very pleased with the result. The crumb is soft and light and the crust is very crunchy; much more so than with wheat flour. 

The starter was about 120% hydration, so the 60g that I used was probably about 27g rye and 33g water, so I think the overall hydration of the loaf, starter included, is about 64%. Next time I'll try it with a cold final proving in the fridge.

 

jefklak's picture
jefklak

I've been trying to achieve more sourness into my sourdough breads because while I did create nice and airy crumbs, I did fail at effectively making it taste tangy. I know a lot of people don't like it that way (my girlfriend for example, haha) but since I've baked a rye bread I don't want to go back. I've tried 2 different miche recipes so far (Hamelman & Reinhart) and now that I have the "local breads" book, I tought it would be a nice opportunity for me to learn some more!

I did these things differently:

  1. Use a rye starter instead of a white levain, but I did convert it into a rather stiff one
  2. Bulk ferment a lot longer (4 hours) with 3x stretch&folding at room temp, 23-24°C 
  3. retard for 12 hours at 5°C in the fridge. 
  4. Knead a bit longer than usual (I always knead using french fold)

With the longer kneading, I wanted to achieve a more evenly spread hole crumb structure as seen in most "miches". I've bought one at "le pain quotidien" here in Belgium (difficult to find sourdough here...) and it looks more or less the same, except mine is better! hah!

The flour I've used is simply amazing, it's locally stone-ground organic very fine wholewheat (yes indeed, no stupid T85). The final build consists of 400gr wholewheat and 100gr spelt flour (white). I wish you could smell and taste it, I'm so happy with it!

  • The crumb I was aiming at has been realized
  • The taste I was aiming at has been realized (I did not expect this, as I tried other things to get a "tang")
  • The boule held it's shape well and was baked cold - I'm upping the scales next time!

To see more pictures and the whole recipe, check out http://www.savesourdough.com/miche-epeautre/

PiPs's picture
PiPs

What do you do with the fruits of a couple of less than successful attempts at a Dark 100% Rye bread?

Altus!

What is altus you ask?

Old bread …namely, ground up leftover rye bread usually soaked in water.

In my case its old (ugly) dark sour 100% rye bread that is soaked overnight in water. I also crumbled dry altus and fed my rye starter portions of this along with normal rye flour.


Old bread, blended, coffee and soaker

I baked three different breads this weekend, all of them utilising altus. First was the “any grain” sourdough, this time in tins, another dark sour rye and the country bread with two starters.

The night before I prepared soakers, starters, milled and sifted the necessary flours so as to make the morning as peaceful and smooth as possible.

 

Any Grain Sourdough in tins (grains included in total flour)

Formula

Overview

Weight

%

Total dough weight

2164g

 

Total flour

1200g

100%

Total water

960g

80%

Total salt

24g

2%

Prefermented flour

240g

20%

Desired dough temperature 29°C

 

 

 

 

 

Starter build – 12 hrs 23°C

 

 

Starter

50g

20%

Rye flour

200g

83%

Altus

40g

17%

water

240g

100%

 

 

 

Soaker– 12 hrs 23°C

 

 

Wheat kibbled

120g

28%

Barley kibbled

120g

28%

Altus

120g

28%

Linseed

60g

14%

Water

420g

100%

 

 

 

Final dough 29°C

 

 

Starter

480g

88%

Soaker

840g

155%

Rye flour sifted

300g

55%

Bakers flour

240g

45%

Water

300g

55%

Salt

24g

2%

 

Method

  1. Autolyse bakers flour and water for 30min, then stir with wooden spoon for 5 minutes.
  2. Add the rest of the ingredients and mix 5-10mins. I use a scraper in my right hand to pick up and turn the dough and keep my left hand wet enough to avoid excessive sticking.
  3. Allow bulk ferment for 15-30mins.
  4. Shape and roll in rolled oats. Place into greased tins (mine were Pullman) seam side down.
  5. I proved these for one hour and 45 minutes before placing into oven with lids on for 15 minutes at 270°C  then a further hour at 200°C

 

Country bread with two starters

I deviated from the procedure described in a previous posting on these breads in two ways.

The rye starter build was a fed a portion of altus crumbs and the final dough had a 200g altus soaker consisting of equal weights of water and dark rye bread.

The altus soaker was blended with water before adding the flours for the autolyse.

 

I have again tried my hand at a 100% Sour Dark Rye. I had to alter several things for this bake. I am out of rye grains for milling so for this bake I used Four Leaf Millings biodynamic rye meal flour. I also used the altus as a soaker instead of cracked grains.

 

Dark Rye Bread Ver 3

Formula

Overview

Weight

%

Total dough weight

1600g

 

Total flour

865g

100%

Total water

735g

85%

Total salt

15g

1.7%

Prefermented flour

302g

35%

Desired dough temperature 29°C

 

 

 

 

 

Starter build – 12 hrs 23°C

 

 

Starter

50g

16%

Rye meal flour (Four Leaf Milling)

202g

67%

Altus

100g

33%

water

302g

100%

 

 

 

Soaker– 12 hrs 23°C

 

 

Altus

100g

100%

Water

100g

100%

 

 

 

Final dough 29°C

 

 

Starter

602g

129%

Soaker

200g

43%

Rye meal flour (Four Leaf Milling)

465g

100%

Water

335g

72%

Salt

15g

3%

 

Method

  1. Soaker is blended with warm water before the rest of the ingredients are added.
  2. Mix until well combined.
  3. With wet hands shape and place into greased pullman tin.
  4. After my previous cases of overproving I watched the dough like a hawk and it seemed ready after one hour. I docked and placed into a 270°C oven for 15 minutes then a further two hours at 200°C.

__

The altus gave the breads a serious flavour kick and moistness to the crumb. The country bread’s crumb was significantly darker from last weeks bake due to the added altus and it was a delight to see the dark flecks of past rye failures given a new life.

… and again I wait with trepidation for the opportunity to cut the dark rye and peer inside…

cheers, Phil

p.s. A little side story ... My partner managed to create her own version of altus unbeknownst to her when she put a rye crust wrapped in a tea towel through the washing machine. Lets just say with toilet training children in the house a rye crust wasn't the first thing that came to mind when she saw the brown lump amongst the towels.

 

 

 

PiPs's picture
PiPs

Saturdays are my day of play in the kitchen. I rise early in our quiet house to bake bread for the week. A boiled kettle, a cup of tea, then I start mixing and planning my day just as the sun pokes through the kitchen window. After mixing, we enjoy a lazy breakfast while I watch the dough and wait. By midday the baking is done, enticing me to cut a slice (or two) for lunch.

Last weeks Dark Rye disappointment also fuelled a rye test bake, but I will save that for another post in the next few days as I am waiting for the crumb to set.

With the rye bake keeping me busy both mentally and physically in the kitchen, I decided to be kind on myself and bake a simple adaptation of the country bread with two starters by using a proportion of wholemeal spelt in the final dough. I think I have found a winner both with flavour and texture.

Milling and Sifting

While last weeks light rye was certainly delicious and moist (with the soaked cracked rye) I found the sharp flavour of using only the rye starter too assertive. The overnight rise in the fridge compounded this further and the sourness became quite pronounced a few days after baking. Using a combination of the two starters and a room temperature proof seems to restore a balance that I felt was lacking in last weeks bread.

I prepared the flour the night before. The wheat was milled and sifted. The caught material was remilled and sifted again before being used in the final flour with the caught bran set aside. The spelt was milled and then added to the final flour mix without sifting while the rye grains were milled coarsely and fed to a hungry rye starter for use in the morning. My usually wholewheat starter was fed sifted wholewheat and 30% wholemeal spelt before being mixed to a 50% hydration and placed in a cool spot overnight.

 

3 grain country bread with two starters

Formula

Overview

Weight

%

Total flour

1100g

100%

Total water

900g

82%

Total salt

25g

2.3%

Prefermented flour

167g

15%

Desired dough temperature 23°-24°C

 

 

 

 

 

Final dough

 

 

Rye starter @110% hydration

115g

12%

Sifted wholewheat starter @ 50% hydration

168g

18%

Sifted wholewheat flour

603g

65%

Wholemeal spelt flour

330g

35%

Water

784g

84%

Salt

25g

2.6%

Last fold, shape and proof

Method

  1. Autolyse flour and water for one hour.
  2. Incorporate starters by squeezing into dough with wet hands until smooth and feel no lumps then knead for 5 mins (I used a gentle slap and fold because of the amount of spelt). Rest dough for five mins. Incorporate salt and knead for a further five mins.
  3. Bulk ferment three hours with three stretch and folds 30min apart in the first 1.5hrs.
  4. Preshape. Bench rest 20 mins. Shape.
  5. Final proof was roughly two hours at room temperature (23°).
  6. Bake in preheated dutch oven for 10 mins at 250°C then a further 10 mins at 200°C. I then removed it from dutch oven and baked for a further 25 mins directly on stone for even browning.

 This is such pleasant dough to work with. Spelt and rye bran are flecked throughout. The kneading and folding gives strength so the shaped loaves hold themselves proudly before being placed in bannetons.

I had massive oven spring considering the amount of freshly milled wholemeal flours … the “Pip” was very pleased.

I played again with the scoring this week. My partner’s nickname is “Rat” so in her ratty honour I scored one of the loaves with a giant “R” … the “Rat” was very pleased.

The flavour for me is a balance between the tang in the rye and subtleness of a wheat starter. This not a boring bread, but it does not dominate the senses either.

… and after a busy day in the kitchen I prepared a simple lunch before we headed outside to continue the rest of our day in the spring sunshine.

Cheers, Phil (and the Rat)

 

 

 

PiPs's picture
PiPs

How to cheer up sad, sick children?

Chocolate chips!

We have a case of glandular fever in our house at the moment making for a worrying week. Several trips to doctors, blood tests and we finally seem to have a boy with a smile and energy again.

This bake was in fact planned for a 40th birthday party in a park today, but the party was cancelled due to the increasing number of storms we have been having. We had another storm this morning, similar to last Saturday.

I had decided to play with the Tartine bread formula using my freshly milled rye starter and finishing a bag of bakers flour I had in the back of the cupboard. (Much to the delight of my partner) I mixed on a Friday night and baked Saturday morning….fresh bread to take to a party. Oh well…now we have fresh bread for lunch instead.

After the bread came out of the oven this morning and with the day free it seemed like the perfect opportunity to put through a batch of banana and choc chip wholemeal muffins. Perfect comfort food for a sick kid.

The muffins are loosely based on a Gordon Ramsay recipe for blueberry wholemeal muffins and while they are delicious with blueberries I used choc chips for kid appeal. I also substituted yoghurt and milk instead of buttermilk.

The muffins melt in your mouth when still warm from the oven leaving little smiling faces covered in chocolate. Not surprisingly it doesn’t look like they will last long.

 

Rye Starter Tartine loaf
Total dough weight: 2kgs
Hydration: 77%
Prefermented Flour: 10%
DDT: 26-27°C

Freshly milled rye starter @ 100% Hydration: 200g
Bakers Flour: 800g
Freshly milled wholewheat: 200g
Water: 750g
Salt: 23g

Dissolve starter in 700g of the water, then mix with flours. Autolyse for 30 mins.

Add salt and final 50g of water. Fold through the dough.

Bulk ferment three hours with four stretch and folds 30 mins apart in the first two hours.

The dough was racing, so after a 20 mins bench rest I shaped it and placed in the fridge for an overnight rise.

Final proof was roughly eight hours in the fridge.

 It was baked straight from the fridge with steam on stone for 10 mins at 250°C then a further 35 mins at 200°C.

 

After a few months of wholewheat , sifted wholewheat breads and last weeks grain bread these breads are such a treat, so soft they are hard to cut. The humid air has now softened the crust, but it was thin and brittle when freshly baked. What appeals to me most about this bread is the bran flecks contrasting with the translucent crumb. The flavour seemed a happy balance between tang and lightness … it dissolves in the mouth … but …

… it was too close to overproofing for my liking and the oven steaming is still not as consistent as a dutch oven.

Lunch ended up being a generous slice topped with avocado, lemon and cracked pepper…

… as another afternoon storm rolls in across Brisbane.

Phil

dolcebaker's picture

Can store bought starter packet be used as a base for ongoing starter? How?

July 30, 2011 - 7:22am -- dolcebaker

 I bought a packet of ready sourdough culture, says to just add it to bread dough, intended for make at home one shot sourdough, says add to 10-35 oz of flour (just add to base bread formula). 

I found this 'all natural ready sourdough' starter, Seitenbacher brand from Germany, I found in a health food store.  It is a rye culture.

jennyloh's picture
jennyloh

I think I'm being ambitious here.  Building starters, and started with 3.  Actually no,  I didn't start with 3.  I started with 1 full rye.  50g/50g,  following by a 1:1 ratio and then 1:1:1 ratio by the 3rd day.  I realised too late that I was going to build a giant and alot of wastage. I decided to split them into 3.  


I wonder if they are ready or I should just go on feeding them? Looking for advice.



 


Rye Starter - Day 5 without refreshment yet.


I took out about 160g from this rye starter and then added 50g/50g.  I think I should have thrown out more.  It's not as bubbly as the one that I added whole wheat.



 


Starter 2:  Added White flour - Day 5 without refreshment (using Dan Lepard's % of white leaven formula)


80g of initial rye starter/100g white/80g water


It's more bubbly and seems to have tripled.  Is this ready?



 


Mother Starter (Peter Reinhart)


I actually read wrongly and used Reinhart's formula on the 4th day.  But it's also very bubbly.  Should I continue with this formula to create the mother starter as per Reinhart's formula?


80g rye starter/60g whole wheat/20g water



 


Looking for suggestions and advices.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Monday:  My garden is bursting with Spring!  The wind is windy and the birds are joyful!  We have 18°C and the furnace has been turned off.  I've pulled a starter out of the fridge.   A firm rye that was not put into long hybernation (do not fear, my pretties, the prepared starter is the jar next to it also looking none the worse from wear.)  It's wonderful and exhausting to be back in Austria.  Lots of garden work and getting used to stairs again.  Back to the starter.


This overripe goo smells cheese strong and has ice crystals all over it.  (Must have been at the back of the fridge.)  I'm thawing it out and scraping it now to look at the bottom.  This stuff could send me under the table from just breathing it, that with jet lag could be lethal.  It would be wise of me to breathe ever so lightly.  My son thought I should pay a fine, keeping a starter that smelled so strong.  It's criminal!  I laughed and smiled to my inner-bread-self.  I'd be the last one to tell him he could have thrown it out months ago.  Must have been fed last in January. 


(4 pm) I managed to push a top layer aside to get at the most underlying glop.  Rather stiff really, broke some out and reminds me more of fresh yeast consistancy.  It is also brighter in tan color than the top gray layer.  I've mixed water with it and ... um... now some rye flour and we will see what decides to grow.  Oops, got to run out for some rye flour.  Needed milk anyway.  I love being able to read everything on the shelves!  Rye everywhere!  Picked up some spelt berries too.


Tuesday:  (4 am)  The starter sat 12 hours and no action other than it smells sour and no longer like wet flour.  Too much acid for the yeast!  Gotta build up yeasty beasties!  Took out a spoonful and did a 1:5:5 again for the next 12 hours > 20°C in the kitchen.


(8 am)  Cooked some spelt in my rice cooker and because I didn't do too much with water so it would go dry, got some nice browning on the cooked grain...  not a bad way to add color to a loaf...  I ate some for breakfast as a chewy hot cereal.  Spent the day trimming and chipping in the garden.


(6 pm)  Got bubbles! I can see them thru the glass but not on top.  Smells sour but mellow and when I attack it with a spoon the bubbles collapse and I see structure under that smooth exterior.  Very good!  Took out another spoonful and did a 1:5:5 feed plus scrounged around for some old rye bread.  Found sunflower light rye, will have to do and processed it into crumbs, mixed in.  Got that sitting out now until I wake up in the wee hours, but also good until morning if I sleep thru.  


Mini

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