The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

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dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

We have been baking with YW, Combo YW / SD and straight SD lately but have not had the chance to compare identical YW and SD recipes to see how they might compare.  We recently made a Joe Ortiz Desem Starter that we really liked so decided to use WW to build each of the starters to the same 90 grams of levain with the same 80% hydration.

  

We usually want somewhere around 40 % whole grains minimum in our breads with sprouts and seeds, but since these rolls were going to be used for our monthly hamburger dinner we skipped the sprouts and seeds but added fresh chopped basil, caramelized onions, bacon and parmesan cheese instead. 

Yeast Water version is first for pictures.

 

These additions reflected isand66’s (Ian’s) bacon, caramelized onion and cheese bread we rank in our top 5 and his roll bake this week along with breadsong’s roll bake this week that had basil and parmesan cheese in it.  We thought combining the 2 would make for a very nice bun for our grilled poblano chili, caramelized onion and mushroom, cheese burger we were planning for dinner.

 

Since it is summer, we planned on bailing the rolls in the mini oven using (2) of Sylvia’s steaming cups designed for it.   We are amazed the varieties of well baked bread that come out of that little oven.

 

This was no exception.  Both rolls were soft and moist inside with the YW being more so but the SD was more open.  The crusts came out nice and crusty but were immediately toned down to nice and soft by brushing milk on them immediately – no one wants a hard hamburger bun. The crust on the SD was darker and more blistered and the spring was greater.  The SD rolls were baked last when the oven temperature and steam were working better.

Now for the Desem SD pictures

 

The YW rolls were slightly under baked and the SD ones were slightly over baked even though both were baked the same way and for the same time and temperature exactly.  Since only the levain was retarded, the SD tang was muted for the SD rolls and there was no SD tang in the YW as expected.

We liked both of these rolls equally well and have now found our new go to hamburger bun and possible bruschetta  bread.  We will add 10g each of potato flakes and ground oats with a little garlic and 12g of water to the recipe next time to make it even better.  We just forgot them this time by mistake.

 

Method

The levains were built over (2) 3 hr and (1) 2 hr build before being refrigerated overnight.  Home ground whole wheat was used for the levains in keeping with the normal Desem starter feed.  We also ground the soft white whole wheat berries.

 

Each  dough was made by hand mixing the levain and non fat milk together first to break up and liquefy the levain, then the flours, butter and oil were added.  We added the fat to give the rolls an even more tender and moist crumb.  The dough was then hand kneaded for 4 minutes and allowed to rest for 15 minutes in an oiled, plastic covered bowl.

YW is on the right in side shot and on the left in the crumb shot.  The spirng better for the SD - quite unexpected.

 

(4) sets of S & F’s were done on 15 minute intervals with the herb, onion, bacon and parmesan added in on the third set.  The dough was then allowed to ferment and develop for 90 minutes.

Each batch made (6) 111 g rolls.  After dividing, the rolls were S&F’ed to shape and then rolled under the palms of the hand until the skin was tight and the fold seamed shut.  The rolls were then proofed for 2 hours on parchment in a plastic bag.

YW on the left, SD on the right.

 

The oven was preheated to 500 F and Sylvia’s (2) Pyrex cups, half full of water with a wash cloth in them were heated until boiling in the microwave.   The rolls with parchment were placed on the top part only of the mini’s broiler pan with the steaming cups and loaded in the lower rack for 10 minutes of steaming.  After 2 minutes the temperature was turned down to 425 F.

Who wants a plain cheeseburger?

 

When the steam came out at the 10 minute mark, the baking rack was moved to the upper level and the temperature turned down to 375 F convection this time.  In 5 minutes the rack was rotated 180 degrees and moved to the lower level for 5 more minutes of baking. 

When you can have one of these.  Both have grilled poblano peppers, Alpine Lace, Emmenthaler Swiss and brie cheese, caramelized onion and mushrooms.  One has lettuce and tomato and one does not.  Either makes any architect a proud builder :-) Even Lindy's on 4th in Tucson would have a hard time beating these burgers and no way they can beat the buns!

 

At 20 minutes the rolls were deemed done and removed to wire cooling racks where they were immediately brushed with milk to soften the crust for hamburger buns.

Brownman's Banana Bread made as a sheet cake For desert.

Formula follows the pictures.

YW StarterBuild 1Build 2 Build 3Total%
Yeast Water25200452.86%
WW152194515.00%
Total Starter404199030.00%

Or the Desem starter below

Desem SD, Caramelized Onion, Basil, Bacon,  Parmesan Rolls     
      
Desem StarterBuild 1Build 2 Build 3Total%
SD Desem Starter1000102.86%
Rye00000.00%
AP00000.00%
WW152194515.00%
Water152003511.67%
Total Starter404199030.00%
      
Starter     
Hydration80.00%    
Levain % of Total14.49%    
      
Dough Flour %   
Semolina5016.67%   
Bread Flour7525.00%   
Soft White Whole Wheat5016.67%   
AP7525.00%   
Durum Atta5016.67%   
Dough Flour300100.00%   
      
Salt62.00%   
Non Fat Milk19565.00%   
Dough Hydration65.00%    
      
Total Flour350    
Milk and Water235    
T. Dough Hydration67.14%    
Whole Grain %42.86%    
      
Hydration w/ Adds68.29%    
Total Weight621    
      
Add - Ins %   
Butter206.67%   
Olive Oil 103.33%   
Total30

10.00

   
 Add ins are split between  12 rolls     
3 Bacon strips     
4 T Chopped basil     
6 T Caramelized onion.     
1/4 C Grated Parmesan    

 

isand66's picture
isand66

I wanted to make some good soft tasty rolls using my Cherry Yeast Water starter.   I figured since I can't drink the starter I should use some organic cherry lemonade in place of the water.  In order to get the rolls to be nice and soft and rich I decided to add some cream cheese and butter and used some Durum flour in the levain as well as the final dough.

As I have mentioned in previous posts I have found that the best way to use the Yeast Water starter is to build up the levain in 2-3 stages.  For this bake I did a 3 stage build detailed below.  If you want to know more about starting your own WYW starter let me know and I will be glad to help you.  It is really easy to start and maintain and WYW does not have nearly as much of a sour tang as sourdough starters.

Procedure

Wild Yeast Water Starter Build 1

50 grams AP Flour

50 grams WYW

Mix the flour and the WYW in a bowl and leave covered at room temperature for 4-5 hours. You can refrigerate it after 4-5 hours if you don't have time to go to step 3.

Wild Yeast Water Starter Build 2

100 grams Durum Flour

100 grams WYW

Mix the flour and the WYW in a bowl and leave covered at room temperature for 4-5 hours.  You can refrigerate it after 4-5 hours if you don't have time to go to step 3.

Wild Yeast Water Starter Build 3

100 grams Durum Flour

150 grams Water

Mix the flour and the WYW in a bowl and leave covered at room temperature for 4-5 hours.  You can now proceed to the main dough or refrigerate overnight and use the next day.

Mix additional ingredients into Build 1 and use your hands to make sure all the ingredients are incorporated.  You should have a fairly firm 65% starter.  Leave covered for 4-5 hours at room temperature and then either proceed to main dough or refrigerate over night.

Main Dough

375 grams WYW Levain from Above

512 grams Bread Flour (KAF)

88  grams Durum Flour (KAF)

393 grams Organic Cherry Lemonade (I bought it at Whole Foods and it has about 23 grams of sugar per serving)

16 grams Salt (Seas Salt or Table Salt)

102 grams Cream Cheese Softened

49 grams Unsalted Butter Softened

Add all the Cherry Lemonade except 50 grams to the starter to break it up in your mixing bowl.  Next add all of the flours and mix on low for 2 minutes.  Let the dough autolyse for around 15 - 20 minutes up to an hour. This will help the dough absorb the flour.  Next add the salt, remaining Cherry Lemonade, cream cheese and the butter and mix for 4 minutes on speed number 1.   You should have a nice smooth dough which is still tacky.  Move the dough onto your work surface and dust lightly with flour if necessary or spray some cooking spray instead.  Most of the time if the dough is not a high hydration I will not use anything on my wood board.

Do 4  stretch and folds and form the dough into a ball and leave uncovered for 10 minutes.  After the first rest do another stretch and fold and cover the dough.  Let it rest for another 10 minutes and then do another stretch and fold.  You can now put the dough into a lightly oiled container or bowl and cover it.  Let it sit at room temperature for 2 additional hours or less if it is warm in your kitchen.  After 2 hours place the covered bowl in the refrigerator for 1 - 3 days until ready to bake.

When you are ready to make your rolls take the dough out of the refrigerator and keep it in its bowl at room temperature for 1.5 -  2 hours.  After its rest it is time to shape the rolls.  Depending on how big you want the rolls, first cut the dough in half and then roll half the dough into a log.  Next cut off the desired size piece you want and roll it into a tight ball.  Place rolls on cookie sheet and cover the rolls with a clean lint free towel sprayed with water or a piece of plastic wrap lightly sprayed with cooking spray.  Let the rolls rest at room temperature for 2 hours or until they are at least 1.5 the size.

Around 30 minutes before baking the rolls, prepare your oven and pre-heat at 450 degrees.  I used my usual set-up for steam and added 1 cup of boiling water to a pan on the bottom shelf but for rolls you could omit this step and you will get softer rolls if that is what you desire.  After adding the steam lower the oven to 425 degrees and continue baking.

It should take around 20-25 minutes to bake the rolls and they should be nice and brown on the bottom and top.  When done, let them cool on a wire rack and enjoy.

The rolls ended up nice and soft with a chewy and nice open crumb.

This post has been submitted to the Yeast Spotting Site here: http://www.wildyeastblog.com/category/yeastspotting/.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

These nice looking and good tasting rolls are some thing we normally don’t do since rolls are usually reserved for holidays and bread is served for dinner otherwise.  We wanted a 50% rye SD knotted roll that also used the WW Joe Ortiz cumin starter we like so much.   So we mixed together our standard rye starter and the WW Joe Ortiz one.  It sat in the fridge after the 8 hour build for 4 days while we decided what to do with it.  We probably should have refreshed it again but no time was available.

We also wanted to boost the browning, a little sweetness and yeast activity by adding molasses, barley malt syrup and home made diastatic malt powder.   We love berry scalds and seeds in bread, especially rye ones, so a cracked barley scald was prepared and once done, some caraway seeds and sunflower seeds incorporated into it.

It is just plain fun to make knots so we do so when ever we can.  We added different individual seed toppers to the rolls to make each a little different than the others.

The sour taste is slightly muted since we didn’t retard them.  The crust is nice and brown and softened as it came out of the oven.  The crust was not as open as we would have liked even for such a high percent whole grain bread but not brickish either.  But it was, soft and moist.  It probably could have baked a few more minutes too.  They should be baked to 205 F but ever since I fried the temperature probe in a 500 F oven, trying to stupidly test how hot it really was,  we have to play the 'is it done' guessing game again. 

 

 These were baked in the mini oven using (2) 0f Sylvia’s steaming method developed for the little beast.  The spring was good as a result.

Method

This WWW and Rye SD levain was made over (2 ) 3 hour builds and (1) 2 hour build and ended up at a  78% hydration and 160 g. for each roll.   The seed was a combination of a sour rye and the Joe Ortiz Cumin Desem starter.  It was very active and doubled after the last build in 2 hours.  Any sourdough starter will do though.  The starter was refrigerated for 4 days but it doesn’t need to be refrigerated at all.

The barley is cracked in a spice mill and then brought to a boil and allowed to sit at room temperature until cooled. The caraway seeds and sunflower seeds are then added to the barley scald and reserved, covered in plastic wrap until needed.  

 

The dough was a 50-50 combination of rye and bread flour.  The levain was mixed with the dough water, molasses and barely malt syrup to break it up.  The dough flours, wheat germ, salt and home made diastatic malt were then added and mixed by hand in a bowl with a spoon for 1 minute and allowed to rest covered with plastic for 20 minutes.

 

(4) sets of  S&F’s were done on 15 minute intervals on an oiled surface with the dough being returned to a plastic covered oiled bowl between sets.  During the last set of S & F’s the barley scald,  caraway and sunflower seed mix is worked into the dough on a floured work surface as this is very sticky dough because of the rye.

The dough is then allowed to develop and ferment for 90 minutes.  You want it to alt least gain 80% in volume before dividing up the dough into (6) 140 g balls to form into knotted rolls.  Form the balls into 14” ropes, make a knot in the middle and then tuck in the two ends into the middle, one from the top and one from the bottom.

Toasted

Allow to nearly double in size on semolina or corn meal sprinkled parchment paper, wrapped in a kitchen trash bag.  We baked ours after 2 hours and they were under proofed by 30 minutes or so - couldn't wait though as dinner needed attention too.  Should have retarded them in the fridge overnight instead of balking them.  We brushed the tops with egg yolk and sprinkled each witha different seed or topping.  We used bran and seeds; chia, flax, basil, white and black sesame and poppy before baking in a 450 F preheated mini oven with (2) of sylvia's steamers for 10 minutes.  After 2 minutes, turn the temperature down to 425  F.  At the 10 minute mark, remove the steam and turn the temperature down to 375 F baking with convection this time.

Toasted

In another 10 minutes or so, the rolls should be done and be 205 F on the inside.  Let them cool in the oven with the door ajar for 10 minutes then move to a cooling rack.

50% Rye SD Rolls With Wheat Germ, Caraway and Sunflower Seeds     
      
Mixed StarterBuild 1Build 2 Build 3Total%
SD Starter2000205.39%
Rye1020104014.23%
WW1020104014.23%
Water204006021.35%
Total Starter60802016056.94%
      
Starter     
Hydration77.78%    
Levain % of Total22.28%    
      
Dough Flour %   
Diastatic Malt10.00356   
Bread Flour14049.82%   
Rye14049.82%   
Dough Flour281100.00%   
      
Salt62.14%   
Water20071.17%   
Dough Hydration71.17%    
      
Total Flour371    
Water270    
T. Dough Hydration72.78%    
Whole Grain %64.15%    
      
Hydration w/ Adds73.35%    
Total Weight718    
      
Add - Ins %   
Barley Malt82.85%   
Wheat Germ82.85%   
Molasses82.85%   
Caraway (2) & Sunflower Seeds227.83%   
Total4616.37%   
      
Scald     
Cracked Bulgar258.90%   
isand66's picture
isand66

My first intention was to make some hamburger and hot dog buns, but as usual I couldn't resist the temptation to be more creative.  These rolls really didn't turn out ideal for its original purpose, but they do taste real good none the less.

I usually don't use yeast anymore in most of my baking since I prefer to use my sourdough starter, but in this case my starter was not ready for duty so I used instant yeast and a long cold slumber in the refrigerator to develop some nice flavors.

The end result was nice semi-soft roll with a nice crumb and simple clean flavor.  These rolls make great sandwiches and go well with a smear of cream cheese or butter!

Ingredients

453 grams Bread Flour (KAF is my brand of choice)

200 grams Whole Wheat Flour (KAF Organic)

80 grams Rolled Oats

155 grams Cottage Cheese Drained (I used 2%)

11 grams Olive Oil

55 grams Egg Yolks (about 3 yolks depending on your egg size)

405 grams Water (90 degrees F.)

7 grams Instant Yeast (If you have Active Yeast you need to convert from Instant and increase the amount.  You will also need to activate the yeast in the water first if you don't use Instant Yeast.  Instant Yeast does not require any activation and can be mixed with the dry or wet ingredients)

11 grams Blue Agave sweetener (Feel free to substitute honey or molasses if desired)

14 grams Table salt or sea salt

Directions

Mix the flours and oats with the water for 1 minute in your mixer or by hand in your work bowl.  Let it sit covered for 1 hour to autolyse.

After an hour mix in the cottage cheese, eggs, oil, yeast, agave and salt and mix on speed 2 on your mixer for 4 minutes or by hand.

Take the dough out of the bowl and place on your work surface.  Knead it by hand for 1 minute and form it into a ball.  Let it rest for 10 minutes.  After 10 minutes do a stretch and fold from all sides and form it into a ball again.  Let it rest another 10 minutes and then do 1 additional stretch and fold and immediately put it in a lightly oiled bowl.  Cover the bowl and put it in your refrigerator for 1-3 days.

When you are ready to make your rolls take the dough out of the refrigerator and keep it in its bowl at room temperature for 1.5 -  2 hours.  After its rest it is time to shape the rolls or baguettes or Boules, etc.  I decided to make rolls and mini baguettes.    Cut the dough into 3 oz. pieces and form round rolls making sure each roll is nice and tight. or form into small rectangle and roll into mini baguettes.  Place rolls on cookie sheet and cover the rolls with a clean lint free towel sprayed with water or a piece of plastic wrap lightly sprayed with cooking spray.  Let the rolls rest at room temperature for 2 hours or until they are at least 1.5 the size.

I was going to use an egg wash which would have been a nice idea had I not been trying to cook dinner and prepare another dough for today, so unfortunately that step was omitted.  Feel free to use an egg wash and add some seeds or bran flakes etc. for that nice finishing touch.

Around 30 minutes before baking the rolls, prepare your oven and pre-heat at 425 degrees.  I used my usual set-up for steam and added 1 cup of boiling water to a pan on the bottom shelf but for rolls you could omit this step and you will get softer rolls if that is what you desire.

It should take around 20-25 minutes to bake the rolls and they should be nice and brown on the bottom and top.  When done, let them cool on a wire rack and enjoy.This post has been submitted to Yeast Spotting at http://www.wildyeastblog.com/category/yeastspotting.

Enjoy!

bubs911's picture

Need some help with crusty rolls

May 6, 2012 - 10:37am -- bubs911

Hi all

Firstly i would like to thankyou for reading this post.

I am a chef from the UK and we are currently making fantastic crusty ciabatta style rolls for our burgers.

I have hit a problem in that we have to bake and freeze our bread as our bread takes 4 - 5 hours to make and is interupting our service and prep time.

loydb's picture
loydb

It's week 8 in the Inside the Jewish Bakery Challenge - Semester 1. This week is Onion Rolls. Sadly, I'll be sitting out the next few dessert-heavy weeks.

Once my confusion over how to deal with the onion mix was clarified (thanks all) this proved to be an easy, fast bake (in terms of actual prep). My notes follow:

  • I used 1 oz of the onion water and 9 oz plain water
  • My egg was almost a full ounce heavier than called for
  • I used 100% milled wheat, a 50/50 mix of hard red and hard white.
  • My cooking time ended up being around 25 minutes.

These are tasty and the outside is crunchy. They aren't overpoweringly onion-y, which I'd been concerned about. I think the flavor would be improved if I make a soaker with the whole wheat next time and let it sit in the fridge overnight prior to adding yeast. I'll make them again for sure.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Three years ago, I made Double Knotted Rolls from a formula provided by nbicomputers, AKA Norm Berg, AKA co-author with Stan Ginsburg of Inside the Jewish Bakery. (See: Norm's Double Knotted Rolls) We enjoyed these rolls a lot, especially for sandwiches made with leftover Thanksgiving turkey.

When I received my copy of Inside the Jewish Bakery yesterday, I had already planned to make these rolls today. However, the book had no specific recipe for these rolls and no indication which of the three formulas for rolls should be used for them. I was pretty sure it would not be the "Light Enriched" dough, because that is the one used for Kaiser Rolls, and Norm specifically distinguished between the "soft roll" dough formula and that used for "hard rolls," like Kaiser Rolls. That left two formulas. Neither was the formula I had used in 2008, but I decided to use the "Sweet Egg Dough," because that looked closest. Here is the result (in photos):

Rolls shaped and ready for proofing

Mixing followed the general instructions for mixing roll dough, and it worked well. Instructions (in Norm's words) for shaping can be found in this topic: Double knot roll. There are numerous YouTube videos of this technique, many erroneously presented as the method for shaping Kaiser Rolls. In addition, both Hamelman's Bread and Greenstein's Secrets of a Jewish Baker have good roll shaping illustrations. I scaled the rolls at 3 oz, with one bit of dough left over to make a sort of Figure Eight Roll.

Rolls proofed and egg-washed

Inside the Jewish Bakery has an enlightening discussion of how different degrees of proofing were used for different products made with the same dough. For the Double Knotted Rolls, a 3/4 proofing is necessary to get the right crumb texture.

These rolls can be baked plain or with poppy seeds or sesame seeds. (Onion rolls are a whole other genre!) My wife much prefers sesame seeds. I can go with sesame or poppy.

Rolls proofed, washed and seeded. Ready to bake.

I baked at 350 F for about 15 minutes. The rolls were slow to brown. Next time, I'll use the oven's convection setting, probably at 330 F.

Baked and cooling

These rolls were less rich than I remember, but still very good.  Next time, I believe I would return to the formula Norm provided in 2008. Who's counting calories?

David

Submitted to YeastSpotting

loydb's picture
loydb

I got some of the San Francisco sourdough culture from http://www.sourdo.com/. I decided to make two different starters -- one that was fed nothing but King Arthur Bread Flour, the other fed nothing but home-milled hard red and hard white wheat. Both produced extremely active cultures within 4 days of 12-hour feedings. I used the basic sourdough bread recipe from BBA, using KA Bread Flour for one, and an 85% extraction sifting of hard red wheat (13%) for the second. Both were given a light wash of egg yolk whisked with milk before the seasame seeds were sprinkled on. They had a 5 hour bulk fermentation and a 2.5 hour final proof.

The KA rolls were crunchy on the outside, but were very much 'white bread'-like on the inside. My wife likes them, I'm thinking about turning them into french toast. They have almost no sour flavor at all, and not much depth. The whole wheat rolls, on the other hand, have a more assertive sour flavor (but still nowhere near King Arthur's New England sourdough). They also (unsurprisingly) have way, way more flavor overall.

I'm going to keep both alive and separate and try again in a few weeks. I'll also try a much longer bulk fermentation.


King Arthur Bread Flour 


Whole Wheat

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