Does anyone have any experience retarding shaped loaves in a temperature-controlled fridge? I have a theory that an second-hand fridge, maintained at 10-12C, will allow me to retard 36 loaves. I've been considering deep plastic pizza dough boxes to hold the brotforms, but I'm concerned that these may not allow sufficiently rapid cooling of the dough. Does anyone have any experience? Educated guesses? Better suggestions?

I'm moving up from a few years of regular home bread baking to very small production (to sell to friends, etc.). I've always preferred the taste and crumb of dough retarded during secondary fermentation (and the schedule control it allows). My best results have been acheived by using an old freezer, hooked up to an eBay temperature controller set to 10-12C for an overnight fermentation (directly after shaping), with the brotforms sealed in ziplocs to prevent excessive drying. My loaves are generally whole grain or 50:50 whole grain:white, scaled to 750g.

I'm considering buying 6 stackable deep pizza dough boxes, which should hold 6 brotforms each, more or less filling a standard fridge. I'm assuming the fridge will be better than the old freezer as there is much more airflow in a fridge. I'm concerned, however, that the dough boxes, which are designed to seal to one another, will insulate the dough too much and prevent sufficient cooling. Pizza dough boxes have the additional benefit for me that they can be used to transport shaped loaves, as I need to move dough to a rented oven until I can build my own WFO (this would be much more difficult if the brotforms were stacked on sheet pans or boards, which I have also considered).

Obviously, in the long term, some sort of retarder that can accept racks would be ideal, but I don't want to spend too much capital on that right now. If someone has a brilliant idea to build a retarder on the cheap in my basement, I'd love to hear about it.

Ok, so here are my bagels, not my first time making them.  I've actually been making bagels for several years now.  I haven't had any complaints about them, in fact, many people say they really like them!  However, I was on a quest to see if I could get more out of my bagels, see if I could make them better.  So, I tried Peter Reinhart's recipe, minus the baking soda in the water on most of the bagels. I did do 2 bagels in the baking soda.  I always thought that having baking soda in the water would make it taste a lot like a pretzel and I don't think that's how a bagel should taste!  Well, I was wrong, well according to my husband :)  Definitely a little tougher crust, in a good way and the malt adds a little but more flavor!  Other than that, they taste just like the bagels I've been making for years. 

But.....I'm not sure that the process I went through makes this bagel any better than the way I've been doing them.  I've been following a very simple recipe, flour, water, yeast, salt and sugar. Let is rise until double, divide into 4 oz pieces, shape, let rest for 20 minutes, boil for a minute each side and bake for 15-20 minutes at 400-425.  If I left the bagels to rise overnight in the fridge, they would turn out the same.  I just don't know if the retarding process is really necessary.  What do you think?

Due to various schedules at work, it turns out that the best bet for me to bake bread during weekdays is to retard (preferably) the proofing. I've been trying to piece together from various books rules of thumb to convert yeasted bread recipes that are not retarded, to a retarded proof. So far, I've more questions than answers:)

- Most every book I've seen says that retarding bulk fermentation adds flavor, but do not say that about retarded proofing. I don't understand why this is - the organic acids should be produced just as well in a retarded proof, right? (Particularly in home environments where you bake 1-2 loaves. Maybe for bakeries there's added effects due to the mass effect,) Does someone know whether proofing overnight produces the same results as bulking overnight?

- The only rule of thumb regarding yeast changes that I could find was in Dan DiMuzio's book, where he says that you might want to cut yeast from 0.7% to 0.2-04% if you're retarding the proof. It wasn't clear to me whether that's the only adjustment needed in terms of time/temparature/yeast/hydration. That is, let's say a recipe says that "add 0.6% yeast, improved mix, bulk for 2 hours, proof for 2", would the change be "add 0.3% yeast, improved mix (with an added 1/2 folds because of the overnight proof), bulk for 2, retard for 12"? Or would I need to change more that one factor in time/temp/yeast/hydration at the same time?

- Any other general tips/rules of thumb for recipe conversion to a retarded proof?

Thanks!

I had great success with overnight retarding of my ciabatta dough.  The flavor was sweet and nutty, the crust turned to a beautiful golden brown, and I got great big holes.  I thought that trying an overnight stay in the fridge for my rustic bread would yield similar results.  But I tried it this Saturday and my dough ended up with small uniform air pockets, and lacked in the rich develoepd taste of the ciabatta.

So I'm wondering what's the secret to overnight retarding of dough?  How long does it need to warm back up?  Should you knead once then put in the fridge, or knead twice and form?  Should you use a poolish, as I did, or just mix all the ingredients and then retard the dough?

I think this method has a lot of promise, but I'm wondering how everyone else does it.  Many thanks!

-Peter

This is in response to Trailrunner's questions on a mixing discussion over at Hansjoakim's blog here on a fantastic-looking crumb he has on his Hazelnut bread.

Lately I seem to get best results with a combo of warm shorter bulk ferment with frequent early folding and long cold final proof. No mixer, no kneading with flour, no repeated French-folding. (warning, this could change as soon as I read of a better method, so please take with a grain of sea salt!):

• Hand mix all the ingredients with a large dough whisk in large bowl (incl. salt)
• Cover and let rest (autolyse) for 30 min. (I know you are supposed to leave out the salt but I find it easier to mix everything initially if not using a standmixer)
• After 30 min. rest, use plastic dough scraper to fold dough onto itself in the same bowl, just like what Mark does in his video here. I count to about 100 as that takes me just about 3 min., and that has seemed to develop the dough well.
• Next round up the dough with scaper and place it into a clean, lightly spray-oiled lidded dough bucket - or for large-size doughs where I double or triple the formula, I use a big square clear plastic food service container with lid.
• Let the dough sit for 30 min. (preferably at 76F location), then do a single stretch & fold as per Hamelman: if dough is in smaller bucket, tip the dough out onto a lightly spray-oiled counterstop, stretch it out into a rectangle, and letter fold it onto itself once, rotate 90 degrees, letter fold again, and put it back in the bucket for another 30 minutes. If dough is in big square container, just fold it right in the container and turn upside down when done.
• Repeat step above 2 more times for a total of 3 folding sessions spread 30 min. apart. Then leave the dough to finish bulk-fermenting at 76F, usually for another 90-120 minutes until just doubled (my home-made starter is not that fast a riser).
• Next shape loaves, then I place the shaped loaves in a 45-50F location (my unheated mudroom) to retard overnight or 12 hrs min.
• After cold retarding I place the proofed loaves in my room temp (65F) kitchen while I preheat my baking stone for 45 min. and bake with steam right after that, usually the loaves are proofed enough after all that time retarding, and the oven spring is great.

Here are results of a less slack dough (65% hydration pain au levain 10% whole wheat), not huge holes like you'd get with a very wet dough, but large enough and evenly distributed, and very flavorful crumb, chewy but not gummy:

I still need to try SteveB's double-mixing technique he describes here. If anyone sees any error in my ways with how I've been doing this, I'm all ears! I'm sure I'll revise this after I read Advanced Bread and Pastry, due in soon.

I've always liked the walnut raisin pain au levain Dan Leader sells at Bread Alone Bakery near me, and I've been wanting to try something like this for awhile and finally got around to it this week, but with cherries and pecans.

Both Susan's yeasted version on her Wild Yeast blog and SteveB's version on his Bread Cetera blog gave me a craving for cherry pecan bread when I saw their photos....thanks for the ideas you two, your baked goods are so mouthwatering and professional looking...(I am unworthy of breadblogging in the same sphere as you two!)

I made this as a sourdough-only version and mixed about 30% whole wheat and 2.5% rye with AP flour. This mix gave a nice dark-colored but light-textured open crumb that tasted good with the fruit and nuts. You could obviously substitue rasins and walnuts, or anything else you can think of. I find it especially tastes great sliced, toasted, and served with cream cheese, and lasts a long time.

I soaked the cherries for a bit too long as they were a little too mushy and a some color washed out, but the bread tasted great, I'll be making this again a lot I think. It was very easy.

Here are the loaves just before slashing and loading into the oven, after their overnight cold retarding:

Here's the formula:

Pecan Cherry Pain au Levain

Makes 2 large 2.5 lb batards or oblong loaves.

Levain Build

Final Dough

1)  12 hours before making final dough, create the levain using some ripe starter that has been fed and doubled. Mix well and cover in bowl until levain has risen to over double but has not yet begun to collapse, aprox. 10-12 hours at 65-70F. Toast the pecans at 350F for 10-20 minutes and let cool, then coarsly chop and set aside. Soak dried sour cherries in water overnight and strain next morning before making final dough.

2)  When levain is ripe, create final dough by mixing warm water with levain to dissolve. Mix all flours and salt in large bowl until evenly distributed, then add watered levain to flour mix with dough whisk, spoon, or hands until well combined. Cover and let rest for 1 hour at @ 70F. Tip dough onto counter, knead in the cherries and pecans lightly, and french fold for approx. 10 minutes with short 1-2 minute rests as needed to scrape together dough or relax it, and tuck in the fruit/nuts. The cherries and pecans may fall out and it will be quite messy at first, but eventually the dough will come together into a neat lump after 5-6 minutes or so. At end of kneading, round out the dough so that fruit/nuts are tucked inside and good skin of dough is on outside. Place dough in lightly oiled container and cover to rest for 30 min. After 30 min., turn out dough onto lightly oiled counter to give it one good gentle stretch and letter fold, then place dough back into oiled covered container. Repeat one more stretch and fold after another 30 minutes, then let dough continue to rise until doubled at @ 70F (approx. 2 more hours).

3)  Shape dough into 2 batards, place batards in floured couche, cover well so loaves don't dry out, and let loaves cold proof overnight at 40-50F for approx. 8-10 hours. Next morning, place loaves in warmer area (65-70F) while oven preheats for 45 minutes to 450F. Bake loaves on oven stone with steam (I pour 1 cup hot water from tea kettle into pre-heated cast iron pan on oven floor) at 450F for 15 minutes, then turn heat down to 400F for another 30-35 minutes until center registers 200-205F with instant read thermometer and crust is well-browned.

On a slightly different note: my last few batches of bread have been coming out smelling and tasting better than ever, I think it may just be this new flour I was able to pick up in a 50lb bag from Bread Alone Bakery down the road from me. It is an All-purpose flour from Canada with 11.5% protein, not sure about ash content. Anyone ever used or heard of this Oak AP flour before?I like it a lot. It handles nicely in dough.

I am fairly new to baking, especially yeast breads, so I've joined this forum to meet people with the knowledge and experience to help me become a better baker.  I have taken an intro to baking class at culinary school, but I'm still a total novice at bread.

I plan to make a challah to serve on Monday, 9/29/08 for Rosh Hashanah.  The trouble I'm having is determining when to prep and bake my loaf.  I work all weekend and have an important event on Sunday night.  I have all day Friday, Saturday night (6:30-12:00), and about 1 hour very early Sunday morning free for baking.  If I prep and bake my challah on Friday, will it be good on Monday?  If I proof the dough on Saturday night and retard the shaped loaf in the fridge overnight, can I expect it to be ready to bake on Sunday morning?

I imagine many artisan home bakers nowadays have trouble finding a block of free time long enough to make bread, and I'm wondering how the rest of you manipulate the process to fit into your schedules.

Thank you,

Adam S.

I'm beginning to think my yeast is on steroids...

Given my hectic schedule, what with work and home and hubby and 3 kids going at least 4 different places, I have often stowed dough in the fridge to buy some time...as well as develop the flavors.  However, I've noticed a pattern that I haven't seen discussed on the forums yet:

If I put the dough in the fridge before first fermentation (knead it and fridge it), I get very little rise in the fridge.  But if any rise has happened at room temp and then I fridge it, either during first fermentation or proofing, I get overdevelopment...by the time the dough has come to room temp again, it's huge and I might as well degas ( the action, not the artist!) and shape from scratch, otherwise it's impossible to slash and I get almost no oven rise.

Doesn't matter if it's yeast, or yeast-starter combo.  I do the combo because my starter, altho bubbly and tasty, has never really risen...and I seldom have the extended stretches of time to let a straight starter do it's thing...but this will be another posting.

So...is it my fridge? (Which has been having it's quirks now, as well!) I store the dough on the bottom shelf--it's a bottom-freezer version--which is coolest.

Am I using too much yeast/starter?  If straight dough, yeast is typically 2 tsp for a 1 1/2 to 2 lb loaf; if yeast-starter, I use 1 tsp yeast and about 25-30% starter for the same size loaf (about 4-5 c flour).  I am basing the starter percents on The Metropolitan Bakery Book (Metro. is a Philly-based artisan bakery) which suggested using 30-40% starter for max flavor and keeping quality.  And since I had a bathtub full of the stuff...

Are there other issues I should be aware of? 

Should I work on my organizational skills, developing a schedule for proofing, retarding, etc?  In my earlier life, I was scheduled rigidly, but having been knocked around by life and being married to Mr. Spontaneity, I've lost that ability ;-).  The thought of reverting to a schedule makes me cringe, but if I have to for the sake of good bread...!   

Windi 

Why do you have to retard the bagels overnight?  I don't have room in my fridge to store a tray of bagels.

Steph

Hi there... don't really know which topic to put this under... hope anyone out there could help....