Happy New Year to all at TFL. I've learnt a lot and improved a lot. Still a long way to go and I am not satisfied. My last loaf of the year was a white loaf with added spelt flower. My slashing resulted in a slashed finger - but I live to tell the tale. This time next year - just see what I will have learnt!

I tend to economize on razor blades for slashing, using them quite a few times before throwing them away. I think I've been handicapping myself. I used a new blade for the last batch of ciabatta, and got aggressive with the slashing -- 1/4 inch deep, at a 45-degree angle to the surface of the boule. Result: great oven spring. My slashes expanded a whole inch, rather than the usual anemic 1/4 inch or so.

(Originally posted this earlier today as a reply on another thread but have been advised to re-post it here for better visibility).....

Hi Guys... My wife and I moved to Indonesia (islands of Bali & Lombok) a year ago and I've been trying to make SD as its little available in Bali and not at all in Lombok. (As are most of even the simplest things we are used to having in our USA kitchens - either extremely hard to find or simply not available here!) I’ve spent several months now attempting to correct my low oven spring - all to little avail.

Here's my (3rd World) Odyssey....

1. I have one of the few gas ovens here in Lombok (I bought it for bread making) as most Indo's only use stove-top gas burners. From day 1 bread was pale and not browning so.
a. Started using a thick 18" x 18" marble stone - no change.
b. Suspected low oven temp and got an oven thermometer (yup... temp on full Hi maxing out only 300 (-) F!
c. Started using broiler too for last 10 minutes of 1 hr preheat and now can get to 500 F! (Turn it off a few minutes before loading loaf as, even using lowest rack, top overcooks if I leave broiler on). Okay... so now I can start at around 460 - 475 F after opening/loading bread and temp drop after loaf loading is no less than to 450 -460 F which I can maintain w/out turning broiler on again - (close enough for government work.)

--- (Mising my Thermador!) ---

2. Flour supply is limited here. Found one supplier ("Bogasari") and made some nice masonry products. Found a different Bogasari flour (this time a "Bread Flour" according to label - no other info on content. Continued making bricks. Found a 3rd (local) flour - same result.

3. Made same recipe many times (not switching as attempting to rule out issues one by one and wanted fewest variables @ time). Finally gave up on original recipe and used David's "Unoriginal" adaptation of Susan from SD recipe (thanks S & D!) and tried both retarding before bulk ferm, retarding after bulk ferm (i.e. after various proofing times of - 1/2 hr; & 1 hr; & 2 hrs); and also w/out retarding - no real change in oven spring , regardless. Tried baking retarded loafs cold from frig and also allowing more proof time before baking. Boules continued to look like steroidal pancakes.

4. Spent a day searching for and finally found some crazy looking grey parchment (thanks Bill from Carrefour!) in my attempt to lessen handling by using a paper peel. Started using a banneton thinking that containing the dough while proofing might help keep shape and thus better spring. (I'm making smallish boules and using a 7" wide bowl with good shape & fabric liner (an old T Shirt!) with good helping of rice flour/bread flour mix - works fine. A bit less horizontal "rise" and a touch more height to loaves but still disappointing looking 2 1/2 inch high pancakes.

5. Decided flour may be the issue so travelled to Bali and visited several bakeries. Found "Sriboga" "Hime" flour (www.Sriboga-FlourMill.com) with "Mositure <14%"; "Protein - Min 12.5%"; "Dry Gluten - 12-13%"; "Ash - Max .46%" (great!!). Had to buy minimum 25 kilo sack so also bought a vacuum sealer and a small freezer so I could store it long-term. Loaves look a little better with new flour but still a disappointing 3" or so high and nowhere near the SD I used to make years ago.

--- (Laughing now...) ---

6. Starter (100% hydration) seemed fine but turned my attention there. Started a 2nd batch to use as a control (this time with both addition of both a little organic ww and some organic whole grain ww flour as well as a bit of rye to make sure I got good mama critters in 2nd batch . Both batches look really healthy - doubling or tripling in about 8 hours or less depending on feeding and temp. Changed my feeding from 1:1:1 (S:W:F) to 1:2:2 to make sure starter was good and active (and peaking) at time of incorporation into dough mix. Added about 10% Rye for next 10 days or so of feeding original starter to give it an extra bump. Both look happy as clams - lots of activity, good bubbles, perfect smell not over or under fed or used at off-peak and both performing similarly in breads -so ruling out starter.

7. Using bottled water only and scrupulously careful with sterility of prep utensils and starter containers. Tired 2 different bottled waters. No change.

8. Tried a variety of mixing methods (bought only mixer I could find in Bali with bread hook - 2 funny looking hook/"screws" - but works well enough. Compared hand mix to machine mix - with varying lengths of gluten development & mix times with both methods. Tried autolysing and not autolysing for various times after initial mix. Do let dough rest a few minutes after bulk F and first gentle forming into rounds (before final careful/gentle shaping into boules).

9. Tried bread pans to "force" more vertical rise. Still little oven spring (see comparison photos of last ones)

10. Got a thermometer which measures both inside temp and humidity. A bit high at 81 F so adjusted room temp with AC during bulk & proof to about 78 F which should be fine.

11. Played with a few different fold techniques (used number/times David called for in his recipe first, then tried more and less folds - always doing my best to handle dough very gently at all stages - without loss of gaseousness from bulk and/or proof ferments. No real change.

12. Played with a few different stretching techniques for final boule shaping. No change.

13. Adjusted both bulk and proof times up and down, hoping I was overproofing. No change (rats.... really hoped that was the culprit!)

14. Made sure my water temp and flour temp were good (was using the flour from freezer without letting it come to room temp first) - stopped doing that. Same results

15. Switched to Susan from SD's "My New Favorite Sourdough" recipe (July 8, 2007) thanks again S! A bit quicker and easier prep on this recipe (vs. David's marvelous 3 build protocol) Still have spring issue!

16. Have tried both "magic" cover technique and various others (pan of hot water in bottom of oven, spraying with mister, etc.) No change.

---- (Note slashes - no ears, just ragged scars that did nothing (I'm thinking probably the result of so little spring) ---

Tried various baking regimes (including on the stone w/out pan) - settled on this one as easy to get from banetton to oven with least handling.

So much trial and error... so little spring!

17. Bought a new oven but have not had time plumb & install it (in our other/Bali house) - will try but doubt it’s the issue.

I am plumb out of ideas on how to fix this. So disappointing - not used to this kind of baking failure. Any ideas anyone?

PS:  Got a few suggestions on my original post (elswhere) so moving the following 2nd post here too:

More on No Oven Spring

As there seems to be more than a little Zen to soudough baking, I though sourdough sages was a more appropriate term than sourdough experts.  Anyhow, here is my question, or rather more of an observation.  Whenever I cook a loaf where the levening is with sourdough culture alone, the rise is always less, both during the fermentation and proofing stage, although I always get much better oven spring compared with yeasted loaves.  I appreciate that fermentation takes much longer with the starter than with dried yeast, and perhaps I get a little impatient and limit the proof to 1 hour when two may be better.  But the substantial oven spring suggest the dough has been proofed enough.  Is the greater oven spring due to more substantial gluten development with sourdough in general?  normally I do not kneed but develop gluten through and autolyze followed by multiple stretch and folds.

Hello,

I recently got Peter Reinhart's Artisan Breads Everyday. I've tried the pain au levain recipe 3 times and have had the same problem every time. The crust of the bread is a kind of pale gray color on top and a nicer golden on the bottom. And, although the bread does have a good spring, the crust doesn't really crack open on top (even where I've scored it). (See pictures below).

I'm wondering if anyone has any idea of what's going on.

I should say that I am using King Arthur French Style Flour (11.5% protein); I am using both starter and instant yeast; the dough is fermenting in the fridge for about 18 hours before baking; I preheat the oven to 500 Farenheit with a baking stone in the oven for 45 minutes; I pour a bit less than a cup of boiling water into a preheated baking pan on the rack under the stone; and I open the oven door for a couple seconds after 13 minutes and then bake for another 15-25 (depending on the size of the loaf).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

I am new to making bread. I tried the whole wheat basic recipe from Healthy Bread in 5 Minutes a Day. I thought I had done something wrong the first time I tried it, so I mixed up another batch last night. I got new yeast, proofed it, even added a tablespoon of sugar to give the yeast more energy. The dough rose beautifully over 2-3 hours, and was refrigerated over night. This morning, I pulled out a one pound hunk, and let it sit for 90 minutes. I used my romertopf baker to bake it. After soaking the baker, I put my dough in it (lined with parchment paper), and baked for 30 minutes at 450 degrees. It is nicely browned, but it just doesn't rise when it bakes. It did rise a little more on the counter this morning, but I don't think there is any oven spring. I did add vital wheat gluten to the ingredients to help. I did start with a cold oven, and started timing when the oven reached the correct temp. I also had an oven thermometer in the to measure the temp. I am confused as to what to do. I am going to try another loaf using a plain pyrex loaf pan, preheated first, to see if it makes a difference. Suggestions anyone? I would just like sandwich sized loafs.

Hello,   Ever since I figured out that my stunted oven spring, closed over scores, and split sides were due to insufficient steaming in my gas oven, I've made adjustments and found myself with the opposite problem.   I have been somewhat systematically trying to diagnose and work out these issues, but I'm still stymied.   I have been focusing on making a pain au levain with 80% white flour, 10% rye and 10% whole wheat, at around 75% hydration.   I just tried baking three loaves with three different sets of conditions.   For the first two, bakers percentage of starter is 33%.   The third I dropped this down to 30%.   The first loaf I did bulk ferment for 3 hours with 3 stretch and folds, then final proof for 2 hours.   The second I did bulk ferment for 3 hours with 3 stretch and folds, and final proof for 2.5 hours.   The third one I did bulk ferment for 2.5 hours with 3 stretch and fold, then a 12 hour retard in the refrigerator.   The first was raised in a couche, the 2nd and 3rd in a basket.    I scored each loaf three times using a curved blade, flat to the surface, and at around 20 deg from the long dimension of the loaf.

For loaf 1 which was proofed for the shortest period of time, the three scores essentially exploded and merged into each other.

Loaf 2 was a little better but two of the scores merged and the third didn't open much.   While loaves 1 and 2 expanded roughly the same amount loaf 2 expansion was more vertical which may be the difference between the couche and the basket.

Loaf 1 and 2 side by side:

Loaf 3 expanded much more slowly in the oven, but the center score seemed to take on all the expansion and the other two barely opened. 

Just curious why do breads made with whole wheat and white flour tend to have low oven spring. My bread always tends to flaten out ward during the rest period. the recipe is pretty simple

5.5 cups flour

2 cups white ap flour

salt

1 packet yeast

1/4 cup vital wheat gluten

and 4 cups luke warm water

i let it double in size for about 2 hours and then shape into boulle shape and then rest for 40 min. pop it on the stone at 450 and bake for 35 min. never goes any higher than what it was after the rest time. i tried to put cross marks in it but it flattened one loaf and it never rose again. haha.

thanks guys

Does anyone have the problem of slashes on the loaf closing?? Mine open quite nicely then close up after about 10 mins into the bake. I don’t think it’s a matter of my cuts being too shallow. 

And what is the normal sequence? Oven spring preceding/ followed by/ accompanied with the opening?

I have a over-proofing problem but I wonder if too much steam or too little has something to do with it as well. Help!

I am a home baker regular baking approximately 6+ loaves of whole grain breads per week.  I use Peter Reinhart's delayed fermentation method  exclusively and I am having issues with my oven spring...or lack there of.  It's totally unpredictable...I baked three anadama loaves last night and each of the two rises went as planned, yet when I put them into the oven...nothing.  The night before, however, I baked two loaves, both of which sprung nicely in the oven. In short, my oven spring has been consistently inconsistent and I do not know why. 

Here is some general information about the process:

Room temp in my house is usually right around 76 degrees

Soaker is kept at room temp for 10 - 12 hours

Biga refrigerated for approx. 10 hrs (two additional hours at room temperature to take the chill off before final dough mixing_

Use King Arthur whole wheat flour exclusively

My yeast is kept in an airtight container in the refrigerator and is only a month of two old

I use 9"x5" loaf pans

First rise usually lasts approximately 45 - 50 mins to achieve recommended rise of 1.5x's original volume

Final rise in the pan usually takes no longer than 50 mins until i press the dough with my finger and it slowly springs back (sometimes a hint of the indentation remains)

I do not use vital wheat gluten

I have noticed that when I make breads such as challah or brioche which include eggs and milk that the oven spring is usually significant

I have been baking for more than three years now with no formal training whatsoever.  In the past, a loaf here or there that did not spring was not the end of the world, however, I now have a number or people for whom I bake a loaf of bread per week and I cannot be giving out whole grain bricks!! Please help!