I've been baking sourdough since Fall 2010. For the last week, I've made 5 loaves of sourdough bread, just trying to get an acceptable-looking loaf for my mushroom club's upcoming mushroom dinner. Until now, I've been satisfied with my pathetic loaves, because I think they're as healthy or more as any loaf of bread, and they taste sour, which is what I want, and they're a perfect vehicle for butter and liver pate (which I include liberally in my diet).

But now I'm making this loaf for my club members, and I'm afraid that my loaves may embarass me.

I'm really "free-style" with my sourdough baking, and although I find the techniques and science fascinating, so far I don't feel it necessary to follow instructions too closely. So.... I want to improve the quality of my loaves (drastically), but I'm not yet striving for what most would consider "perfection," and I'm not about to make my bread-baking complicated.

I'm loosely following the recipe entitled "Sourdough" on pg. 115 of "The River Cottage Bread Handbook" by Daniel Stevens. I change it just about every time, and so this is one reason for my creating this account - I'm going to start (seriously) recording each experience I have with my sourdough career.

Here's my basic recipe:

Sponge: Made in the evening, let ferment overnight, covered with a plastic garbage bag, left at about 65-70 degrees F.

• 1/2 c. whole rye starter
• 2 c. whole spelt
• 1 1/4 c. water

Dough: Next morning.

• 1 c. whole spelt
• 1 c. unbleached, all-purpose wheat with germ
• 1/2 c. whole buckwheat

Procedure: Varies ;).

Almost every time I bake my bread, in the oven it cracks at the sides of the base. (In this photo, it's not too bad actually).

Google searches tell me that this is a sign of underproofing. I let it rise for a good 5 hours, sometimes more though when it doesn't seem to rise. When I put it by the woodstove, then it does rise, gets very airy and a little melty. (I oil the bowl and dough). But then it really spreads out on the pan. And once I tried re-kneading it and shaping it, several times, and that didn't seem to help. Here are some more pictures:

(I intentionally tore that piece off - not an issue with baking!)

Now, this time, with my mushroom loaf, I didn't get the side-splits. I think that's because I put a lot of flour on the dough before I let it rise (which, I'm not sure if it really did - it went about 3 hours) and it developed a bit of a skin. Then, that skin cracked on the top a little as it rose (horizontally, mostly) and so although the cracking didn't look so great when it baked because I also slashed it, it didn't crack on the sides, I'm guessing because of the skin. But this loaf also had little to no oven spring, perhaps also because of the skin.

So although I'm so sick of making bread right now, I'm trying again... but this is the last time before the mushroom dinner tomorrow, I promise myself. I'm changing the recipe again though. Instead of 1 c. whole spelt and 1 c. all-purpose, I'm adding 2 c. all purpose to the dough.

Now I'm letting the dough autolyze for 45 minutes to an hour, depending on when I finish this entry ;).

My prediction of the procedure for this batch:

• Knead for 2 minutes or so, adding in chopped shiitake and porcini mushrooms
• Stretch & fold every 30 minutes, for ? hours (this will be the bulk fermentation)
• Form dough into a boule. Flour just the bottom and sides, to create a skin to prevent the side cracking. I won't flour the top to allow it to rise without the top cracking. Let rise in bowl for 3 (?) hours at 65-70 degrees F. (Should I put it downstairs, where the woodstove is? I did that I couple of times previously, but it kind of melts my dough... I think I won't put it downstairs, and continue with a slower, longer fermentation instead)
• Put dough on baking sheet, re-shape into boule, slash + on top, with |  between each right angle of +, kind of nearing the base to allow some expansion at the bottom and hopefully prevent side-slitting where I definitely don't want it. Mist the slashes. Bake at 500 for 10 minutes, then 30 minutes at 400.

(Originally posted this earlier today as a reply on another thread but have been advised to re-post it here for better visibility).....

Hi Guys... My wife and I moved to Indonesia (islands of Bali & Lombok) a year ago and I've been trying to make SD as its little available in Bali and not at all in Lombok. (As are most of even the simplest things we are used to having in our USA kitchens - either extremely hard to find or simply not available here!) I’ve spent several months now attempting to correct my low oven spring - all to little avail.

Here's my (3rd World) Odyssey....

1. I have one of the few gas ovens here in Lombok (I bought it for bread making) as most Indo's only use stove-top gas burners. From day 1 bread was pale and not browning so.
a. Started using a thick 18" x 18" marble stone - no change.
b. Suspected low oven temp and got an oven thermometer (yup... temp on full Hi maxing out only 300 (-) F!
c. Started using broiler too for last 10 minutes of 1 hr preheat and now can get to 500 F! (Turn it off a few minutes before loading loaf as, even using lowest rack, top overcooks if I leave broiler on). Okay... so now I can start at around 460 - 475 F after opening/loading bread and temp drop after loaf loading is no less than to 450 -460 F which I can maintain w/out turning broiler on again - (close enough for government work.)

--- (Mising my Thermador!) ---

2. Flour supply is limited here. Found one supplier ("Bogasari") and made some nice masonry products. Found a different Bogasari flour (this time a "Bread Flour" according to label - no other info on content. Continued making bricks. Found a 3rd (local) flour - same result.

3. Made same recipe many times (not switching as attempting to rule out issues one by one and wanted fewest variables @ time). Finally gave up on original recipe and used David's "Unoriginal" adaptation of Susan from SD recipe (thanks S & D!) and tried both retarding before bulk ferm, retarding after bulk ferm (i.e. after various proofing times of - 1/2 hr; & 1 hr; & 2 hrs); and also w/out retarding - no real change in oven spring , regardless. Tried baking retarded loafs cold from frig and also allowing more proof time before baking. Boules continued to look like steroidal pancakes.

4. Spent a day searching for and finally found some crazy looking grey parchment (thanks Bill from Carrefour!) in my attempt to lessen handling by using a paper peel. Started using a banneton thinking that containing the dough while proofing might help keep shape and thus better spring. (I'm making smallish boules and using a 7" wide bowl with good shape & fabric liner (an old T Shirt!) with good helping of rice flour/bread flour mix - works fine. A bit less horizontal "rise" and a touch more height to loaves but still disappointing looking 2 1/2 inch high pancakes.

5. Decided flour may be the issue so travelled to Bali and visited several bakeries. Found "Sriboga" "Hime" flour (www.Sriboga-FlourMill.com) with "Mositure <14%"; "Protein - Min 12.5%"; "Dry Gluten - 12-13%"; "Ash - Max .46%" (great!!). Had to buy minimum 25 kilo sack so also bought a vacuum sealer and a small freezer so I could store it long-term. Loaves look a little better with new flour but still a disappointing 3" or so high and nowhere near the SD I used to make years ago.

--- (Laughing now...) ---

6. Starter (100% hydration) seemed fine but turned my attention there. Started a 2nd batch to use as a control (this time with both addition of both a little organic ww and some organic whole grain ww flour as well as a bit of rye to make sure I got good mama critters in 2nd batch . Both batches look really healthy - doubling or tripling in about 8 hours or less depending on feeding and temp. Changed my feeding from 1:1:1 (S:W:F) to 1:2:2 to make sure starter was good and active (and peaking) at time of incorporation into dough mix. Added about 10% Rye for next 10 days or so of feeding original starter to give it an extra bump. Both look happy as clams - lots of activity, good bubbles, perfect smell not over or under fed or used at off-peak and both performing similarly in breads -so ruling out starter.

7. Using bottled water only and scrupulously careful with sterility of prep utensils and starter containers. Tired 2 different bottled waters. No change.

8. Tried a variety of mixing methods (bought only mixer I could find in Bali with bread hook - 2 funny looking hook/"screws" - but works well enough. Compared hand mix to machine mix - with varying lengths of gluten development & mix times with both methods. Tried autolysing and not autolysing for various times after initial mix. Do let dough rest a few minutes after bulk F and first gentle forming into rounds (before final careful/gentle shaping into boules).

9. Tried bread pans to "force" more vertical rise. Still little oven spring (see comparison photos of last ones)

10. Got a thermometer which measures both inside temp and humidity. A bit high at 81 F so adjusted room temp with AC during bulk & proof to about 78 F which should be fine.

11. Played with a few different fold techniques (used number/times David called for in his recipe first, then tried more and less folds - always doing my best to handle dough very gently at all stages - without loss of gaseousness from bulk and/or proof ferments. No real change.

12. Played with a few different stretching techniques for final boule shaping. No change.

13. Adjusted both bulk and proof times up and down, hoping I was overproofing. No change (rats.... really hoped that was the culprit!)

14. Made sure my water temp and flour temp were good (was using the flour from freezer without letting it come to room temp first) - stopped doing that. Same results

15. Switched to Susan from SD's "My New Favorite Sourdough" recipe (July 8, 2007) thanks again S! A bit quicker and easier prep on this recipe (vs. David's marvelous 3 build protocol) Still have spring issue!

16. Have tried both "magic" cover technique and various others (pan of hot water in bottom of oven, spraying with mister, etc.) No change.

---- (Note slashes - no ears, just ragged scars that did nothing (I'm thinking probably the result of so little spring) ---

Tried various baking regimes (including on the stone w/out pan) - settled on this one as easy to get from banetton to oven with least handling.

So much trial and error... so little spring!

17. Bought a new oven but have not had time plumb & install it (in our other/Bali house) - will try but doubt it’s the issue.

I am plumb out of ideas on how to fix this. So disappointing - not used to this kind of baking failure. Any ideas anyone?

PS:  Got a few suggestions on my original post (elswhere) so moving the following 2nd post here too:

More on No Oven Spring

Hello! I'm new to breadbaking, and I'm confused. I followed the SourDo Lady's starter and basic bread instruction, and my bread tastes awesome and the crumb seems ok, but it's spreading and not rising enough for my liking. Based on what I've read here, I think I'm messing up the fermentation time, flour protein level, or my oven temp is off as I'm waiting for a thermometer to arrive. As I'm in an new country, I also have no idea about the flours I'm using (harina integral mixed with tipo 000). It's a fun mess and I want to eliminate one variable at a time. There are a lot of unknowns and future experiments in perfection waiting, but I'm pretty happy that the bread is gobbled up by my testers. I want to get the rise to improve so that I can try this one with more ingredients!  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/12819/potatonut-bread-south-tyrol-thanks-salome

However, I'm confused about a few things:

1. What is the difference between refrigerating dough over night with one stretch and fold vs. stretch and fold immediately 3x for 45 min, then refrigerating?

2. I keep forgetting to incorporate the butter/salt/sugar in a timely fashion. What happens to the gluten if I'm adding butter/salt/sugar in after it's risen 1-2 times? What happens if I added nuts or seeds at this points, since most recipes seem to want a first rise without that stuff? I don't really understand the rise of breads with mixing stuff in, or even if you're supposed to poke air out, then put it in the oven. See next question.

3. I accidentally collapsed my friends yeast based dough - she had let it rise twice. So, I did a few stretch and folds, and stuck it next to the other one in the oven. Her previously risen bread stayed inert when baked. The one I reformed started much smaller and grew almost to the same size as the other. How does that happen?!?!

Thank you so much for any tips!

Jessica in Buenos Aires

Does anyone have a recipe for a Yeasted Coffeecake but there is no rise required? Recently I saw a recipe but didnt write it down. It had you putting the batter/ dough in a cold oven to start out. Im assuming it was instant yeast....

Help!  I must have added my proofed yeast to scalded milk that was still too hot.  It hasn't risen after 2 hours.  (This is a rye bread, so it always takes longer to rise, but this is ridiculous)  Is there anything I can do to rescue the dough?

1. I had rehydrated the yeast with cold water. That shouldn't have been a problem. It was plenty warm enough in the kitchen
2. I had added leftover sludge after feeding the wild yeast. That shouldn't have been a problem. It wasn't that acidic. In fact there was no sour taste to the dough at all.
3. Maybe I had added too much salt. I don't think so. It didn't taste too salty.
4. I had added malt to the yeast. No, if anything that would have helped rather than inhibited the rise.
5. The flour is relatively new. If at least 4 loaves of bread hadn't been made from that bag of flour, I'd have blamed the flour.

The next morning, my husband found a little dish of creamy looking water on top of the stove. There were a few fruit flies doing the breast stroke in it. The liquid smelled faintly of apples. And THAT'S why my focaccia dough refused to rise. I forgot to add the yeasted water to the dough! Quel moron. Hmmmm, if there was no yeast in the dough, these can't really be called "pitas", can they? I think they have to be considered as "chapatis" because they are yeast-free.

• recipe for how NOT to make rosemary focaccia
• recipes for flatbread, including pitas and focaccia

Hello All,

This is my first post and my first natural yeast starter. I spent a good few hours reading all the posts to make sure I had a good understanding of what to do before I began. I was excited about the idea of making my own natural yeast starter, but unfortunately, it has not turned out as I had hoped. It has been a full week now since I began, and I have yet to get a rise out of my starter. Below I will explain in detail the process that I used.

Thursday- The beginning

I decided to begin my starter with canned pineapple juice in an attempt to prevent bacteria formation that causes false starts for many people. I thought I was playing it safe, but perhaps I should have stuck with plain old water. I also used Arrowhead Mills stone milled organic wheat flour. I used 1/4 cup pineapple juice and slightly less than 1/2 cup flour. I eyeballed the flour measurement, but I did spoon the flour into the cup rather than use the dipping-into-the-bag method.

Friday-

Morning. No activity in the starter. I scooped out 3/4 of the starter and repeated the same process as the day before (1/4 cup pineapple juice and a scant 1/2 cup of wheat flour). I mixed the juice in first, stirred vigorously, added the flour, and stirred vigorously

Mid afternoon vigorous stir.

Evening. Same steps as morning (keep 1/4 of previous starter, 1/4 cup pineapple juice and a scant 1/2 cup of wheat flour)

Saturday-

Morning. I saw a few tiny bubbles, but not enough to declare life yet. I had exhausted my supply of pineapple juice, so I switched to water. Everything else remained the same (1/4 cup water and a scant 1/2 cup of wheat flour)

Mid afternoon vigorous stir.

Evening. I saw more bubbles, so I switched to feeding it with white flour (1/4 cup of water and a scant 1/2 cup of white flour). I stirred the starter before bed.

Sunday-

Morning. I saw the same amount of bubbles as the night before. I did everything as before (keep 1/4 starter, add 1/4 cup water and a scant 1/2 cup white flower).

Mid afternoon vigorous stir.

Evening. It still had the same amount of bubbles as Saturday evening, so I thought something must be slowing its progress. I thought it could be the temperature (which is 70-75 degrees at my place), so I placed the starter near the vent of my computer for gentle heating. I have an electric oven that has no light inside, so using the oven as a way to warm it was out. I kept the rest of the process the same. I also stirred the starter before bed.

Monday-

Morning. I was pleased to notice that the bubbles were a little bit larger, but unfortunately there was no rise. I repeated the usual process (keep 1/4 starter, add 1/4 cup water and a scant 1/2 cup white flower), but this time I placed it on a heating pad that I use for my muscles after a long run. It was on the low setting (90 degrees) and auto-shuts off after 45 minutes.

At the mid-afternoon vigorous stir I noticed a tiny amount of hooch. There were a few bubbles on the top about the size of small peas, but otherwise no rise.

Evening. There were a few small bubbles, but otherwise less activity than at the mid-afternoon stir. I repeated the usual process (keep 1/4 starter, add 1/4 cup water and a scant 1/2 cup white flower) and placed it back on the heating pad on the low setting. When I went to bed, I turned the heating pad back on and stirred.

Tuesday-

Morning. Small pea sized bubbles and a tiny amount of hooch. I repeated the usual process (keep 1/4 starter, add 1/4 cup water and a scant 1/2 cup white flower) and placed it back on the heating pad on the low setting.

Mid-afternoon stir. Same pea sized bubbles with a tiny amount of hooch but still no rise at all.

Evening. I decided that perhaps I wasn’t feeding it enough or maybe I wasn’t specific enough on the measurements, so I got out my kitchen scale. I kept 2 tablespoons of the starter and added 3 oz of water and 3 oz of white flour. I placed the starter back on the heating pad and stirred before I went to bed.

Wednesday- Today

Morning. Still the same old pea sized bubbles but no hooch. I repeated the process that I did the night before with adding 3 oz of water and 3 oz of white flour to 2 tablespoons of starter.

So this is where I am today. I still have not gotten a rise out of the starter that I began a week ago. The batter smells lightly sour and yeasty, but it is a pretty light smell. Then I thought today, perhaps it is the water? I checked out the chloramine levels in the District of Columbia (where I live) and the water authority says that they vary between 3-3.7 milligrams per liter of water. I will try bottled water today and see if that helps. Can anyone think of anything else that I might be doing wrong? I’m hoping that I won’t have to give up on this starter.

Thanks for all your advice guys!

-Danny

I have just recently got into sourdough bread. I have had great success with the no knead method but when i try to make a traditional loaf my second rise never seems to have much lift. Is this normal? My starter is quite healthy. It is not liquid like some ive seen on this site but rather a thick pancake batter like consistancy. I purchased it from KA. It does have bubbles too. Also wondering how do you get a ww starter going? Im sure its on this site somewhere i just cant find it.