When I knew nothing about bread baking and just did the no-knead bread it worked beautifully every time.  Now I am developing more serious interest in making bread and nothing is working whatsoever.   

I am trying to make Jason’s Ciabatta http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2984/jasons-quick-coccodrillo-ciabatta-bread.  I don’t have a bread mixer but I wanted to make Jason’s recipe anyway, by hand, as some people say it can be done.

I quote campcook  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/12994/best-ciabatta-recipe:

I have been making Jason's recipe with variations for some time.  It is very forgiving and produces excellent results every time.  I have flattened it into pizza, folded in extra ingredients, used fresh ground whole wheat flour and cooked it over a campfire -- all to the raves of my tasters.

 Recently, I started doing it almost no knead with no mechanical mixer.  I stir the dry ingredients thoroughly, then stir in ice cold water and let it rise over night.  (We are camping in the mountains so it is very cold at night but I still put it in a cooler to slow the rise.)  In the morning, I (wet) stretch and fold it a couple of times before dividing it for the final 40 minute rise.  Each loaf is wet stretched again before baking one at a time in my camper oven.  I have a pizza stone in the oven to help hold temperature constant.  Each loaf gets 25 to 30 minutes at roughly 500 degrees ( we are at 7000 feet here.)  The results are just fantastic -- big open holes, chewy crust and wonderful flavor.

I have flattened this dough into pizza or near pizza shapes and just shortened the bake time.  I have added slivers of garlic at times, nuts, whole grains and raisins at other times - it all worked.

He says (in the boldface above) that he is getting the same result from stretching the very wet dough about a couple of times when  the recipe directs to beat the hell out of dough….upto 30 mins at high speed(??) 

Here is what is happening to me:

I mix the ingredients together lightly and after a few mins rest I turn the wet dough with a spatula a few times, sort of like stretch and fold in a bowl.  It seems to firm up and become smooth and shiny but still floppy.  But I am (was) assuming at this stage I am far, far away from what the dough is supposed to be as per recipe because people are beating it in a mixer for a long while before they say it ‘comes together’.  I now throw the dough on a board and do the French fold which is touted to be great for very wet doughs.  But, within a few turns, instead of progressing towards coming together,the dough gets GOOPIER  and WETTER and breaks down completely.  As I try to lift it the dough drips for my fingers.  What wasn’t pancake batter a few moments ago suddenly turned into stretchy batter.  It is still shiny but instead of smooth it looks rough, like cellulite. I scrape it off the board into a bowl and let it go.   The yeast works because I see a lot of bubble eventually but NO rising in the dough.

I have tried this six times now and sometimes with different flours.  It is happening every time.

Is it possible that the very wet dough develops gluten very quickly and then breaks down?   Then I really need only a few folds?  How can dough be this sensitive?!  Then how is it that all those happy people beat it for so long?  Is it that the gluten does break down while mixing but they don’t notice it because things are moving in the mixer but strangely the gluten comes back together after prolonged mixing?  The yeast not raising the dough is kind of telling isn’t it?

Or, if not the above, then what? 

Some people have stretched and folded several times but I am not getting there.  The dough seems to disintegrate right at the beginning. 

I want to almost buy a mixer to do this kind of dough.  God, I am restraining myself not to do that.  I want to be able to do this by hand producing the same bread at the end.  It has got to be possible.  No?    

Can anyone help me with what I am doing wrong and what I should try? Any insight from fellow, but, experienced bread bakers will be so appreciated.

 Meanwhile I am still working on it to test the variables.  And I will post what happens. Maybe I will just go ahead and bake whatever happens and see.

Many thanks for taking the time to read this long post!

K.

Hi there,

Well I just found out about this site and can't believe how much information is here and I can't wait until later tonight after I tuck the kids into bed so I can wander around and check everything out!!!

I'm posting because my KitchenAid stand mixer just died during a double batch of dough that I was making for some recipe testing work that I was doing (on level #2). I've had it for 11 1/2 years (I remember because I got it as a wedding present)... it's been great and I am so sad to see it unusable (I haven't tried to get it fixed.. maybe this is an option - but I'm thinking that there has to have been some advances in the last 12 years that I could take advantage of). I'm not sure my KA stand mixer's time was coming anyway or if it's been the amounts of dough that I've been asking it to handle lately. But either way I'm looking for a new stand mixer.

I was wondering if I should go ahead and get another KitchenAid and if so which one, or if I should go with another brand. I searched on the forums the threads I found were from 2007 so I thought I'd post here just in case some newer models have come out that are highly recommended. I want one mixer than can handle heavy duty double batches of dough, whole wheat doughs, as well as just one batch of dough, and also small amounts like cookies, pancakes, brownies, etc.

I guess I should also not that I already have the pasta attachment for the KA that I love since it rolls out fresh pasta so easily.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions that you may have.

Lisa

http://lisacohen.typepad.com

This is in response to Trailrunner's questions on a mixing discussion over at Hansjoakim's blog here on a fantastic-looking crumb he has on his Hazelnut bread.

Lately I seem to get best results with a combo of warm shorter bulk ferment with frequent early folding and long cold final proof. No mixer, no kneading with flour, no repeated French-folding. (warning, this could change as soon as I read of a better method, so please take with a grain of sea salt!):

• Hand mix all the ingredients with a large dough whisk in large bowl (incl. salt)
• Cover and let rest (autolyse) for 30 min. (I know you are supposed to leave out the salt but I find it easier to mix everything initially if not using a standmixer)
• After 30 min. rest, use plastic dough scraper to fold dough onto itself in the same bowl, just like what Mark does in his video here. I count to about 100 as that takes me just about 3 min., and that has seemed to develop the dough well.
• Next round up the dough with scaper and place it into a clean, lightly spray-oiled lidded dough bucket - or for large-size doughs where I double or triple the formula, I use a big square clear plastic food service container with lid.
• Let the dough sit for 30 min. (preferably at 76F location), then do a single stretch & fold as per Hamelman: if dough is in smaller bucket, tip the dough out onto a lightly spray-oiled counterstop, stretch it out into a rectangle, and letter fold it onto itself once, rotate 90 degrees, letter fold again, and put it back in the bucket for another 30 minutes. If dough is in big square container, just fold it right in the container and turn upside down when done.
• Repeat step above 2 more times for a total of 3 folding sessions spread 30 min. apart. Then leave the dough to finish bulk-fermenting at 76F, usually for another 90-120 minutes until just doubled (my home-made starter is not that fast a riser).
• Next shape loaves, then I place the shaped loaves in a 45-50F location (my unheated mudroom) to retard overnight or 12 hrs min.
• After cold retarding I place the proofed loaves in my room temp (65F) kitchen while I preheat my baking stone for 45 min. and bake with steam right after that, usually the loaves are proofed enough after all that time retarding, and the oven spring is great.

Here are results of a less slack dough (65% hydration pain au levain 10% whole wheat), not huge holes like you'd get with a very wet dough, but large enough and evenly distributed, and very flavorful crumb, chewy but not gummy:

I still need to try SteveB's double-mixing technique he describes here. If anyone sees any error in my ways with how I've been doing this, I'm all ears! I'm sure I'll revise this after I read Advanced Bread and Pastry, due in soon.

For those interested in the double flour addition mixing technique, its application in the production of ciabatta can be found here:

http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=162

SteveB

For those having difficulty achieving an open crumb structure, the following might be of interest:

http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=157

SteveB

Does any one use a food processor to make their dough?  I have a recicpe for rye bread(doesn't say to use a food processor) that wants you to MIX, BEAT VERY HARD FOR 3 MIN., And KNEAD FOR 8-10 MIN.  Can the food processor do all this?   I guess I want to know if you can make all doughs using a food processor or just some recipes or do you have to adapt the recipe when using the processor?  I bought a pretty good 14 cup Cuisinart that should be strong enough but not sure when to use it for doughs.  Any one have any ideas?

With all the recent discussion on making baguettes, I thought some of you might be interested in a recent posting about baguettes on my brand-spankin'-new bread blog:

 http://www.breadcetera.com/

 - SteveB

Ok, I have an idea and I'm looking to see if anyone else agrees. I have a KA mixer and make alot of wheat breads from my fresh milled grain. My dough has a tendency to stick to the sides of the bowl but, the same recipe won't stick in a breadmaker pan while kneading. My idea is to convince KA to make a mixing bowl with a non-stick coating inside like a breadmaker or rice cooker pan. I think that this would benefit MANY recipes and I want your opinions. I think if enough people liked the idea I may be able to get somewhere. Thanks.

Same Ciabatta video, different music. Let's just say all musicians aren't crazy about having their music in baking videos. OOps.
-Mark

Hey there everybody. I just made this baking video http://youtube.com/watch?v=QfaXbn5HpAY and put it up on YouTube - a little blurry, but I'll try putting a clearer version on our bakery site later. It's a 'how to' without the commentary (if a picture is worth a thousand words, then a video must be worth...). Anyway, let me know what you think, and if you'd like any other topics addressed in my future videos. The next one will be on kneading and folding whole wheat dough. Thanks!