Hi ya'll

I’ve got a question about salt. I once worked at a baker where we added 1/4 of the salt at the beginning of mixing, and the other 3/4 at the moment the mixer would go to second speed.

We used the intensive mixing methode and used a strong patent flour. After a three hour fermentation, the dough was divided and shaped (by hand), then, after a short final fermentation, baked. 

I was still a young fellow back then and just did what i was told, but now i’m thinking of it and i can’t quite figure out why we did this. Even the literature isn’t giving any answers.

Any toughts?

tnx

First post from a long-time lurker -- apologies for the length.  I'm a regular baker, and I've baked some bread most weeks for the past decade or so.  I also dabble and experiment a lot.

Recently I've started wondering about why we actually knead/mix beyond just combining ingredients.  A friend who was asking me about the value of folding got me onto this question -- I started researching folding and ended up wondering what kneading/mixing actually does that can't be done as well (or better) by additional folding where necessary.  I'm not talking necessarily about the "no-knead" methods that have been in vogue for the past few years, which generally depend on a very long fermentation to develop gluten, though perhaps they also bear on this question.  I assume that for "standard" method breads, the initial knead/mix must be in part replaced by additional folding and perhaps modifications during shaping.

When I first started baking, I generally used the oft-touted "windowpane test" to know when I'd achieved adequate mixing/kneading.  A few years back I read things which have shown me that that isn't necessarily the best criteria.  Hamelman is one source that gives some detail:

Appropriate development does not necessarily mean full gluten development....  If our only goal is dough volume, a lot of yeast and maximum gluten development in the mixer is the method of choice.  Maximum volume is one thing, however, and maximum flavor another, and a mixing technique that favors utmost volume will also compromise flavor. [p. 8, emphasis in original]

Hamelman goes on to point out that mixing incorporates oxygen, which is important for gluten development, but he points out that too much oxygen ruins flavor by destroying carotenoids.  Elsewhere, he also notes that the oxygen incorporated during mixing is consumed within minutes by the yeast (p. 13); I'm not sure whether that has any impact on the ongoing gluten development, though.

He then contrasts heavy mixing with very light mixing, describing the latter thus:

[I]magine that the dough is mixed very slowly, on low speed only.... Gluten development is at a minimum, as is the oxidation of the dough.  Bulk fermentation lasts for many hours, punctuated by a number of folds, and the dough slowly reaches maturity. The carotenoids are not oxidized out of the dough, and the bread flavor is superb.  Loaf volume, however, is comparatively small, because of the relative lack of physical dough development. [pp. 8-9]

In the end, Hamelman argues for a middle course, which develops dough strength but doesn't destroy flavor.  Most books seem to agree, and many even say that, short of overmixing in a professional mixer, you're unlikely to overdevelop the dough in an initial mix.  But in the description I've quoted here, it seems that the effects of little kneading are mixed (pardon the pun) -- the dough requires more tending (folding, and a longer fermentation), but the flavor is greater.

Yet I wonder about his conclusion that the loaf volume is necessarily "comparatively small."  In my experience (which is not that of a professional baker), it seems that proper shaping and added folding (if necessary) contribute a lot more to final loaf volume than extensive mixing or a long initial knead.

In fact, I've taken to running experiments in the past few months, making a lot of familiar recipes, but skipping the mixing/kneading beyond getting the ingredients moist and well-mixed.  I add in a couple extra folds during bulk fermentation as necessary to achieve the kind of dough strength I want.

And, in the end, I don't feel like loaf volume is smaller.  If anything, it seems to be slightly larger than I've generally had.  I haven't gotten around to side-by-side comparisons yet, though in any case, if some of my loaf volumes are smaller, the difference is not very significant.  I haven't noticed a difference in flavor, though it certainly isn't worse. 

But it seems to me that the only real trade-off is maintenance.  In the traditional baking routine with up-front mixing and kneading, I spend 5-10 minutes doing serious initial mixing.  In the "no-knead" (or perhaps "minimal knead") case, I'm forced to tend to the dough for a couple minutes for every 45 minutes or even more often during bulk fermentation.  While that additional maintenance can be bothersome, I'm generally already tied down for one or two folds anyway, and if I do an autolyze, that extends my initial time commitment as well.

So, in sum, I guess I have two questions:

(1) Is there something I'm missing here?  Is there a major advantage to enhanced initial mixing, either something you've read about theoretically or something you've observed in your own baking?

(2) If the advantages aren't that significant, why is the standard method found in the vast majority of books so focused on a long initial knead/mix?

As I promised on my last entry, I took pictures of my bakery during work this morning.  I'll explain some of the methods and processes that we employ as well, since each boulangerie does things its own way.  We are an artisan bakery and use no pre-fabricated frozen dough or chemical additives.  The levain for most of the breads (excluding the standard baguettes) is all natural, made with apple juice we press ourselves.

I work with a small staff of two bread bakers and one pastry chef - the patron or boss makes the specialty cakes.  The bakers work from 3am/5am until 9am/11am every day, and the pastry chef from 5am until afternoon.  Breads not baked in the morning are baked by the boss in the wood-fired oven two or three times during the day, but all the work is done before 10am except for the specialty cakes.  The short hours and small staff keep costs way down while managing to put out between 800 to 1100 loaves daily in about 30-40 different varieties.  While some credit should be given to the equipment, most belongs to the two bakers themselves who are incredible to see in action.  I'm thankful to be learning from them!  So, the pictures:

We use an 8-deck hearth oven at 310 deg. C, or 590 deg. Fahrenheit.  Loaves are taken out of the retarder in the morning and let proof before going in the oven.  The first baker arrives at 3am and takes them out, mixing other doughs to let bulk ferment during the early morning hours.  Around 5am the other baker arrives and the oven gets going.  One baker forms baguettes to be retarded that afternoon and night while the other bakes the breads from the day before.  At 9am everything for the day has been baked and we weigh all the specialty doughs, which have been fermenting, and fashion all the loaves, and then they go in the retarder until the next morning.  This is the process for 90% of the breads.

The specialty doughs go in the spiral mixer and the normal white dough goes in the large oblique mixer.

Baguettes during pre-shaping:

Here are some loaves about to go in the oven.  The dark ones are baguettes aux céréales and the one with the ring is bread made with hazelnut flour.  The second picture show baguettes nouvelles, explained below.

For the baguettes nouvelles (new baguettes), the dough undergoes a 72 hour bulk fermentation in the refrigerator and then is formed with a hydraulic machine to not deflate the gas.  Notice the machine and the metal grill below:

Here are some loaves fresh from the oven: round miches, large pain paysan, regular baguettes on the oven loader, dusted baguettes de tradition, and baguettes nouvelles in the case.

My favorite bread we bake each Saturday is the grand pain paysan, a slab of dough weighing 5kg, or 11lbs!  It's sold by the kilo.

I don't do much with pastries - one absolute master pastry chef makes them all.  Fresh strawberries are all the rage right now, and we're doing a buy 3 strawberry pastries, get 1 free deal.  The picture with the almonds and raisins shows mini-kugelhopfs, the special pastry of my neighbor region Alsace.

Finally, some pictures from inside the store.  Most boulangeries suffer from either an overly-elaborate or overly-dull store space, often too small.  Not the case here!  From the enormous wood-fired oven imported from Mexico - producing an unbelievably tasty bread - to the lime green walls, it's a great place to find whatever suits your palate.

At home after a long morning of work, enjoying a baguette nouvelle.  Hope you've enjoyed the pictures!

Nate

So I've been baking breads for some years now and experimenting with various recipes. 

Today I've been working on these English Muffins as well as my version of Theresa Greenway's Griffin's Bread.

The versions I'm making are 62% and 68% hydrations respectively. 

Most of the time I use a KA mixer with C-hook to knead.

Both doughs clear the sides of the bowl reasonably well, but neither of these totally clear the bottom of the bowl. I ran them both for maybe 1 minute at KA speed 2 to combine, then about 3-4 minutes at speed 3. 

In the case of the muffins (which use about 70% preferment), there was about a 2.5" diameter circle at the bottom, and I added some additional flour (about 10g) and it shrank to about 2". 

In the case of the sourdough (which uses about 82% preferment), it stuck to a large circle at bowl bottom, probably 5-6" around. I had to add probably 30g of flour to make it clear the sides better, leaving about a 2-2.5" diameter circle at the bottom of the bowl. 

My questions are about hydration and mixing to clear the bowl: 

1. Am I correct to assume that all 62% and above hydration flours will never totally clear the bottom of the bowl? 
2. What hydration typically will clear the bowl bottom? 

For those who are unable to attend a professionally-taught bread baking class, the next best thing, an excellent discussion of the three major dough mixing techniques by Lionel Vatinet, can be found here (you may have to sign on to the Modern Baking website, but signing on is free and the article is well worth it).

SteveB

www.breadcetera.com

I have been use pate ferments for my dough lately over a poolish.  So the question comes in the mixing.  Hamelman recommends adding the pate ferment after the flour and water and salt come together.  Whereas the poolish is added to the water and the flour in the beginning.  (I am assuming the pate ferment is about 60% hydration vs a 100%-125% poolish)  So when I wait to add the pate ferment I get streaks in the dough.  I usually pre ferment the wheat, spelt, barley- whatever whole grain I am using.  So it really streaks.  I know this is from I guess not kneading enough.  But I mixed for almost 10 min the DLX and did stretch and folds.  So why can't you add the pate ferment to the water, dissolve it, then add the rest of the flour?  Is there a reason behind not adding it in the beginning?

When I knew nothing about bread baking and just did the no-knead bread it worked beautifully every time.  Now I am developing more serious interest in making bread and nothing is working whatsoever.   

I am trying to make Jason’s Ciabatta http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2984/jasons-quick-coccodrillo-ciabatta-bread.  I don’t have a bread mixer but I wanted to make Jason’s recipe anyway, by hand, as some people say it can be done.

I quote campcook  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/12994/best-ciabatta-recipe:

I have been making Jason's recipe with variations for some time.  It is very forgiving and produces excellent results every time.  I have flattened it into pizza, folded in extra ingredients, used fresh ground whole wheat flour and cooked it over a campfire -- all to the raves of my tasters.

 Recently, I started doing it almost no knead with no mechanical mixer.  I stir the dry ingredients thoroughly, then stir in ice cold water and let it rise over night.  (We are camping in the mountains so it is very cold at night but I still put it in a cooler to slow the rise.)  In the morning, I (wet) stretch and fold it a couple of times before dividing it for the final 40 minute rise.  Each loaf is wet stretched again before baking one at a time in my camper oven.  I have a pizza stone in the oven to help hold temperature constant.  Each loaf gets 25 to 30 minutes at roughly 500 degrees ( we are at 7000 feet here.)  The results are just fantastic -- big open holes, chewy crust and wonderful flavor.

I have flattened this dough into pizza or near pizza shapes and just shortened the bake time.  I have added slivers of garlic at times, nuts, whole grains and raisins at other times - it all worked.

He says (in the boldface above) that he is getting the same result from stretching the very wet dough about a couple of times when  the recipe directs to beat the hell out of dough….upto 30 mins at high speed(??) 

Here is what is happening to me:

I mix the ingredients together lightly and after a few mins rest I turn the wet dough with a spatula a few times, sort of like stretch and fold in a bowl.  It seems to firm up and become smooth and shiny but still floppy.  But I am (was) assuming at this stage I am far, far away from what the dough is supposed to be as per recipe because people are beating it in a mixer for a long while before they say it ‘comes together’.  I now throw the dough on a board and do the French fold which is touted to be great for very wet doughs.  But, within a few turns, instead of progressing towards coming together,the dough gets GOOPIER  and WETTER and breaks down completely.  As I try to lift it the dough drips for my fingers.  What wasn’t pancake batter a few moments ago suddenly turned into stretchy batter.  It is still shiny but instead of smooth it looks rough, like cellulite. I scrape it off the board into a bowl and let it go.   The yeast works because I see a lot of bubble eventually but NO rising in the dough.

I have tried this six times now and sometimes with different flours.  It is happening every time.

Is it possible that the very wet dough develops gluten very quickly and then breaks down?   Then I really need only a few folds?  How can dough be this sensitive?!  Then how is it that all those happy people beat it for so long?  Is it that the gluten does break down while mixing but they don’t notice it because things are moving in the mixer but strangely the gluten comes back together after prolonged mixing?  The yeast not raising the dough is kind of telling isn’t it?

Or, if not the above, then what? 

Some people have stretched and folded several times but I am not getting there.  The dough seems to disintegrate right at the beginning. 

I want to almost buy a mixer to do this kind of dough.  God, I am restraining myself not to do that.  I want to be able to do this by hand producing the same bread at the end.  It has got to be possible.  No?    

Can anyone help me with what I am doing wrong and what I should try? Any insight from fellow, but, experienced bread bakers will be so appreciated.

 Meanwhile I am still working on it to test the variables.  And I will post what happens. Maybe I will just go ahead and bake whatever happens and see.

Many thanks for taking the time to read this long post!

K.

Hi there,

Well I just found out about this site and can't believe how much information is here and I can't wait until later tonight after I tuck the kids into bed so I can wander around and check everything out!!!

I'm posting because my KitchenAid stand mixer just died during a double batch of dough that I was making for some recipe testing work that I was doing (on level #2). I've had it for 11 1/2 years (I remember because I got it as a wedding present)... it's been great and I am so sad to see it unusable (I haven't tried to get it fixed.. maybe this is an option - but I'm thinking that there has to have been some advances in the last 12 years that I could take advantage of). I'm not sure my KA stand mixer's time was coming anyway or if it's been the amounts of dough that I've been asking it to handle lately. But either way I'm looking for a new stand mixer.

I was wondering if I should go ahead and get another KitchenAid and if so which one, or if I should go with another brand. I searched on the forums the threads I found were from 2007 so I thought I'd post here just in case some newer models have come out that are highly recommended. I want one mixer than can handle heavy duty double batches of dough, whole wheat doughs, as well as just one batch of dough, and also small amounts like cookies, pancakes, brownies, etc.

I guess I should also not that I already have the pasta attachment for the KA that I love since it rolls out fresh pasta so easily.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions that you may have.

Lisa

http://lisacohen.typepad.com

This is in response to Trailrunner's questions on a mixing discussion over at Hansjoakim's blog here on a fantastic-looking crumb he has on his Hazelnut bread.

Lately I seem to get best results with a combo of warm shorter bulk ferment with frequent early folding and long cold final proof. No mixer, no kneading with flour, no repeated French-folding. (warning, this could change as soon as I read of a better method, so please take with a grain of sea salt!):

• Hand mix all the ingredients with a large dough whisk in large bowl (incl. salt)
• Cover and let rest (autolyse) for 30 min. (I know you are supposed to leave out the salt but I find it easier to mix everything initially if not using a standmixer)
• After 30 min. rest, use plastic dough scraper to fold dough onto itself in the same bowl, just like what Mark does in his video here. I count to about 100 as that takes me just about 3 min., and that has seemed to develop the dough well.
• Next round up the dough with scaper and place it into a clean, lightly spray-oiled lidded dough bucket - or for large-size doughs where I double or triple the formula, I use a big square clear plastic food service container with lid.
• Let the dough sit for 30 min. (preferably at 76F location), then do a single stretch & fold as per Hamelman: if dough is in smaller bucket, tip the dough out onto a lightly spray-oiled counterstop, stretch it out into a rectangle, and letter fold it onto itself once, rotate 90 degrees, letter fold again, and put it back in the bucket for another 30 minutes. If dough is in big square container, just fold it right in the container and turn upside down when done.
• Repeat step above 2 more times for a total of 3 folding sessions spread 30 min. apart. Then leave the dough to finish bulk-fermenting at 76F, usually for another 90-120 minutes until just doubled (my home-made starter is not that fast a riser).
• Next shape loaves, then I place the shaped loaves in a 45-50F location (my unheated mudroom) to retard overnight or 12 hrs min.
• After cold retarding I place the proofed loaves in my room temp (65F) kitchen while I preheat my baking stone for 45 min. and bake with steam right after that, usually the loaves are proofed enough after all that time retarding, and the oven spring is great.

Here are results of a less slack dough (65% hydration pain au levain 10% whole wheat), not huge holes like you'd get with a very wet dough, but large enough and evenly distributed, and very flavorful crumb, chewy but not gummy:

I still need to try SteveB's double-mixing technique he describes here. If anyone sees any error in my ways with how I've been doing this, I'm all ears! I'm sure I'll revise this after I read Advanced Bread and Pastry, due in soon.

For those interested in the double flour addition mixing technique, its application in the production of ciabatta can be found here:

http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=162

SteveB