Do you love cooking shows?  Ever noticed a difference in the way cooking shows present what it is to cook?  Are they the Julia Child types that lightheartledly take hammers to meat and throw a little wine into the pot because "heck, it was already in my hand!"  Or do they precisely measure things and triple-check for accuracy like on "America's Test Kitchen?"

Read about my thoughts on this dramatic stylistic choice and how it impacts bread baking in my lastest blog, hosted here: 

http://sourdoughrye.blogspot.com/2011/10/liberties-and-flair.html

Hey everyone,

I was just wondering if anyone else used the "Vitamin C Method" that I use for all my pizzas.  The ascorbic acid of the Vitamin C creates a reaction with the yeast that speeds up the rising process dramatically, cutting it down to only one short rise. 

Just curious.

joel

First post from a long-time lurker -- apologies for the length.  I'm a regular baker, and I've baked some bread most weeks for the past decade or so.  I also dabble and experiment a lot.

Recently I've started wondering about why we actually knead/mix beyond just combining ingredients.  A friend who was asking me about the value of folding got me onto this question -- I started researching folding and ended up wondering what kneading/mixing actually does that can't be done as well (or better) by additional folding where necessary.  I'm not talking necessarily about the "no-knead" methods that have been in vogue for the past few years, which generally depend on a very long fermentation to develop gluten, though perhaps they also bear on this question.  I assume that for "standard" method breads, the initial knead/mix must be in part replaced by additional folding and perhaps modifications during shaping.

When I first started baking, I generally used the oft-touted "windowpane test" to know when I'd achieved adequate mixing/kneading.  A few years back I read things which have shown me that that isn't necessarily the best criteria.  Hamelman is one source that gives some detail:

Appropriate development does not necessarily mean full gluten development....  If our only goal is dough volume, a lot of yeast and maximum gluten development in the mixer is the method of choice.  Maximum volume is one thing, however, and maximum flavor another, and a mixing technique that favors utmost volume will also compromise flavor. [p. 8, emphasis in original]

Hamelman goes on to point out that mixing incorporates oxygen, which is important for gluten development, but he points out that too much oxygen ruins flavor by destroying carotenoids.  Elsewhere, he also notes that the oxygen incorporated during mixing is consumed within minutes by the yeast (p. 13); I'm not sure whether that has any impact on the ongoing gluten development, though.

He then contrasts heavy mixing with very light mixing, describing the latter thus:

[I]magine that the dough is mixed very slowly, on low speed only.... Gluten development is at a minimum, as is the oxidation of the dough.  Bulk fermentation lasts for many hours, punctuated by a number of folds, and the dough slowly reaches maturity. The carotenoids are not oxidized out of the dough, and the bread flavor is superb.  Loaf volume, however, is comparatively small, because of the relative lack of physical dough development. [pp. 8-9]

In the end, Hamelman argues for a middle course, which develops dough strength but doesn't destroy flavor.  Most books seem to agree, and many even say that, short of overmixing in a professional mixer, you're unlikely to overdevelop the dough in an initial mix.  But in the description I've quoted here, it seems that the effects of little kneading are mixed (pardon the pun) -- the dough requires more tending (folding, and a longer fermentation), but the flavor is greater.

Yet I wonder about his conclusion that the loaf volume is necessarily "comparatively small."  In my experience (which is not that of a professional baker), it seems that proper shaping and added folding (if necessary) contribute a lot more to final loaf volume than extensive mixing or a long initial knead.

In fact, I've taken to running experiments in the past few months, making a lot of familiar recipes, but skipping the mixing/kneading beyond getting the ingredients moist and well-mixed.  I add in a couple extra folds during bulk fermentation as necessary to achieve the kind of dough strength I want.

And, in the end, I don't feel like loaf volume is smaller.  If anything, it seems to be slightly larger than I've generally had.  I haven't gotten around to side-by-side comparisons yet, though in any case, if some of my loaf volumes are smaller, the difference is not very significant.  I haven't noticed a difference in flavor, though it certainly isn't worse. 

But it seems to me that the only real trade-off is maintenance.  In the traditional baking routine with up-front mixing and kneading, I spend 5-10 minutes doing serious initial mixing.  In the "no-knead" (or perhaps "minimal knead") case, I'm forced to tend to the dough for a couple minutes for every 45 minutes or even more often during bulk fermentation.  While that additional maintenance can be bothersome, I'm generally already tied down for one or two folds anyway, and if I do an autolyze, that extends my initial time commitment as well.

So, in sum, I guess I have two questions:

(1) Is there something I'm missing here?  Is there a major advantage to enhanced initial mixing, either something you've read about theoretically or something you've observed in your own baking?

(2) If the advantages aren't that significant, why is the standard method found in the vast majority of books so focused on a long initial knead/mix?

I am finally proud of my bread...It looks gorgeous. My special thanks for the web

 tutoring go to Australian Baker WARWICK QUINTON.

Porridge:

600 h whole-wheat flour

260 g whole-rye flour

100 g buckwheat flakes

850 ml cold water

Mix and flours and water and place in  a box with lid and leave them in the fridge overnight. This method softens the whole grain flours.

Sourdough:

10 g whole-wheat starter (100% hydration -from the fridge)

100 g  whole-wheat flour

60 g water

Let to ferment for12-14 hours.

Remove the box from the fridge and add:

240g altus ( 60 % rye, 40% wheat)

160 g stiff sordough

Mix it through with your hand for a few minutes.

Allow to rest for 30 minutes.

Add the salt (24 g ) and work it through the dough. Let to rest for 30 minutes.

Give it turn and allow to stand for 30 minutes.

Continue the process allowing about half an hour between turns until  your  achive silk consistency.

Let to ferment for 4-6 hours 

Shape your bread into cylinder, using the flats of your hands.  Brush with water, and dust with buckwheat flakes. Put into the  proofing basket.

Set your oven to 500F and bake:

•  15 minutes with steam in 480F.
•  20 minutes in 450F
• 15 minutes in 400F.

I am finally settling into a pattern of baking 3-4 loaves every weekend for our daily use-WWsandwich, fruited morning toast, french and maybe 1 extra as experimental,giveaway or to perfect a recipe.

It occurs to me their are many little things I can do to streamline the process of making the repetetive loaves such as pre-measuring out my flour into ziplocs and even adding all the dry ingredients to it.

I thought I'd ask the collection of experts here what they do to streamline their process? I have learned so much from this forum. I'm sure there are many great ideas as to procedure and supplies that make it easier and faster. After all, it will leave more time to bake NEW breads!

Hi, I have been looking a lot on your site and got excited by the idea of "autolayse". Wheat is naturally water resistant so the idea of letting it sit and soak is great.  While trying to fully understand how autolayse works I ran across "stretch and fold" which also sounds wonderful.  The idea of slowly stretching and folding rather than the hard work of kneading it by hand (I don't have a mixer). I would like to know how to use these methods with all my bread baking.  How can I take recipes that my family and I already like and incorporate the autolayse and stretch and fold methods?  Does anyone know more about one or both of these methods.  I have been searching the web and all I can find are definations and a several descriptions of how wonderful the bread looks.  There must be some basic formulas for both of these methods. 

Pixy