The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts


JonnyP's picture

Mixer help needed for Polish Country rye

November 18, 2011 - 3:05pm -- JonnyP

Background:  I have made over 100 loaves, mostly using the sourdough "no-knead" meathod.  Now I have a 300W Kitchen Aid mixer on loan.  I have tried the following recipe several times:

My problem: gluten never seems to develop to anything even remotely like a "windowpane."  Worse still, after just 2 minutes in the mixer, the dough starts to break down, and become progressively more soupy



Josh.S's picture

Focaccia technique question

September 23, 2011 - 10:09am -- Josh.S

I made Reinhart's focaccia recipe from the BBA a couple weeks ago and it turned out very well.  Interestingly, I noticed that the olive oil and water are simultaneously mixed with the flour.  I understand that fats are typically added later in the mixing process so that the gluten is given more time to form and so the fat doesn't lubricate the gluten and prevent it from forming longer strands.

kjonyou's picture

Shortening, Pastery Dough and Gluten?

September 2, 2011 - 11:19am -- kjonyou

What is the roll of lard or butter in a pastery dough with the dough gets stretched out paper thin like strudel? 

I am trying to make a similar dough for an Italian pastery that has to be streched literally paper thin.  I am using breadflour for a higher gluten content.  I undersand this is not typical for flaky pastery,  however, since its being streched so thin you need good gluten development.

JonnyP's picture

Kefir Sourdough Starter: initial observations and concerns

July 4, 2011 - 10:53pm -- JonnyP

Here is my experience with kefir as a component used in sourdough bread making.

Summary:  When adding kefir milk/curds/whey to my typical slow-ferment (no-knead) bread dough recipe, I find the quality of the gluten to be degraded: the dough tears more than stretches compared to if I use plain water instead. I suspect that proteases present in the kefir are cleaving the gluten strands.

cranbo's picture

To try to document dough development of a lean dough, I created a video of mixing some lean, 59% hydration dough in my KitchenAid 5qt mixer at speed #2 (the 2nd click).

I'm trying to get a better idea of knead times for my mixer with respect to different doughs. Hamelman in "Bread" says 6.5 - 7.5 minutes for moderate gluten development for KAid stand mixer. He recommends 900-1000 total revolutions for moderate dough development, so with some info from fthec and KAid:

#1 (stir): 40 rpm 
#2: 54 rpm 
#3: 79 rpm 
#4: 104 rpm 

 This means:

Time (minutes) Revolutions
0 0
1 54
2 108
3 162
4 216
5 270
6 324
7 378
8 432
9 486
10 540
11 594
12 648
13 702
14 756
15 810
16 864
17 918
18 972
19 1026
20 1080

According to the stats, I may still have kneaded for too short of a time (H. also says that doughs with hydration under 60% will take longer to develop, as will doughs that have high hydration). It really started smoothing out at about 8 minutes, even more substantially at ~13 minutes. I guess next time I'll have to push it further, and see what happens. 

cranbo's picture

EDIT: based on some feedback, I have corrected my original post. 

I set out to locate a list of protein levels in common flours, and I found a handy list, reposting for your perusal:

Flour Names & Protein Percentages

  • King Arthur Queen Guinevere Cake Flour (8.0%) 

  • King Arthur Round Table Pastry Flour (9.2%) 

  • Caputo 00 Extra Blu Flour (9.5%) 

  • Generic All-Purpose Flour (10.3%) 

  • King Arthur All-Purpose Flour (11.7%) 

  • Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour (12.0%) 

  • General Mills Harvest King Flour (12.0%) 

  • Robin Hood All-Purpose Flour (12.0%) 

  • King Arthur Bread Flour (12.7%) 

  • Bob's Red Mill Semolina Flour (12.9%) 

  • Five Roses All-Purpose Flour (13.0%) 

  • Eagle Mills All-Purpose Flour (13.3%) 

  • King Arthur Whole Wheat Flour (14.0%) 

  • King Arthur Whole Wheat Organic Flour (14.0%) 

  • King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (14.2%) 

  • Arrowhead Mills Vital Wheat Gluten Flour (65.0%) 

  • Hodgson Mill Vital Wheat Gluten Flour (66.6%) 

  • Bob's Red Mill Vital Wheat Gluten Flour (75.0%) 

  • Gillco Vital Wheat Gluten Flour (75.0%) 

  • King Arthur Vital Wheat Gluten Flour (77.8%) 

FYI, this came from a very handy page & calculator I came across at

The reason I was interested in this is because I wanted to find out how much my protein would be boosted by adding vital wheat gluten to my flour. 

I usually use KA All Purpose, which has 11.7% protein. To supplement, I planned to use Bob's Red Mill Vital Wheat Gluten Flour. 

  • 1 cup KA AP flour weighs  about 125g. If 11.7% is protein, then there is about 14.63g of protein per cup of this flour
  • 1 tbsp of Bobs Red Mill Vital Wheat Gluten weighs about 8.5g. If 75% is protein, then 6.375g of protein per tbsp of this flour.
  • 1 cup KA AP + 1 tbsp Bob's Red Mill Vital Wheat Gluten = 21g TOTAL protein
  • 21g of protein / 133.5g total ingredient weight = .161, or 15.73% of protein in the flour mixture

You can use this same method to calculate the adjusted protein in your flour. 


What's interesting to me is that at the recommended dosage, adding 1 tbsp. of Bob's Red Mill gluten to every 1 cup of KA flour would make an extremely high protein flour, higher than what is typically commercially available. I wonder if it would make it totally unusable & gummy?

Then again, if you had a relatively weak, generic AP flour (9% protein), then 1 tbsp per cup would probably bump you to a very respectable 13.2% protein level, close to that of KA Bread Flour. For those that have actually tried this technique, I wonder if it actually performs in a similar way (e.g., similar to KA Bread flour) or do other flour factors (such as ash content, type of wheat, etc) play more into the overall performance of the flour and resulting bread?

dri's picture

Can't get gluten - could quinoa help?

January 31, 2011 - 3:01am -- dri

Hi there, hope you can help me. I am living in the Andes of Ecuador, so I am doubly challenged where bread-making is concerned. I have to deal with very high altitude, AND a total inavailability of bread flour/gluten. On the latter, I am wondering if quinoa flour (which is a cheap staple here) could be a possible solution. I know nothing about it, I'm afraid, but having read that gluten is a wheat protein, and having read that quinoa is very high in protein, could adding quinoa flour help to achieve the stretchy, spongy texture that I so love?

Thanks so much!


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