Good day, all. 

Like many others before me, I am making my first attempts at Tartine's country loaf. My current hurdle: proper gluten development and out of it building adequate surface tension.  I feel that I am following the directions correctly, but when the time comes for the initial shaping before the bench rest, the dough is very sticky (not tacky) and glossy with hydration. My sense is that the gluten has not developed properly. 

As things stand, I have a healthy and predictible starter that's over 30 days old. Here are the other particulars of my process: 

• Flour: Central Milling's Artisan Bakers Craft and Medium Whole Wheat Flour (also, with similar results, CM's Type 85 flour)
• Mix leaven and allow to rise to 20% original volume at approximately 68 degrees; test and pass float test
• Mix ingredients according to recipe quantities and temps
• Autolyse for 40 minutes at roughly 75 degrees
• Add salt and water, mix until incorporated
• Transfer dough to plastic container for a bulk fermentation of 3 to 4 hours at about 78 degrees
• During bulk fermentation dough is folded 2-3 times every 30 minutes during the first 2 hours, making sure that entire dough mass is processed with the turns
• During the remaining time it takes to increase in volume by 20%, the dough is not turned

Now, I understand that this is process that will take plenty of time and repitition to achieve optimum results. Here are a couple questions I have by comparing what I see and feel from what I see thorughout the photographs in the Tartine book: 

• WIth so little interaction with the dough (by way of the series of turns), can one expect so well developed gluten and the resulting surface tension as seen on pages 57 and 59?
• What might be the reason, or reasons, that my dough is appears glossy, is so sticky, and lacking the smoothness and shapability that comes with well developed gluten? 
• Is it possible that I need to mix longer during the mixing stage after adding the salt and water? 

I realize there are many factors at play and so the possibilites numerous for my current results, but any insights are greatly appreciated. All seems well to up until the bulk fermentation. 

Many thanks in advance. 

Cheers and happy holidays!

Christoph

First post from a long-time lurker -- apologies for the length.  I'm a regular baker, and I've baked some bread most weeks for the past decade or so.  I also dabble and experiment a lot.

Recently I've started wondering about why we actually knead/mix beyond just combining ingredients.  A friend who was asking me about the value of folding got me onto this question -- I started researching folding and ended up wondering what kneading/mixing actually does that can't be done as well (or better) by additional folding where necessary.  I'm not talking necessarily about the "no-knead" methods that have been in vogue for the past few years, which generally depend on a very long fermentation to develop gluten, though perhaps they also bear on this question.  I assume that for "standard" method breads, the initial knead/mix must be in part replaced by additional folding and perhaps modifications during shaping.

When I first started baking, I generally used the oft-touted "windowpane test" to know when I'd achieved adequate mixing/kneading.  A few years back I read things which have shown me that that isn't necessarily the best criteria.  Hamelman is one source that gives some detail:

Appropriate development does not necessarily mean full gluten development....  If our only goal is dough volume, a lot of yeast and maximum gluten development in the mixer is the method of choice.  Maximum volume is one thing, however, and maximum flavor another, and a mixing technique that favors utmost volume will also compromise flavor. [p. 8, emphasis in original]

Hamelman goes on to point out that mixing incorporates oxygen, which is important for gluten development, but he points out that too much oxygen ruins flavor by destroying carotenoids.  Elsewhere, he also notes that the oxygen incorporated during mixing is consumed within minutes by the yeast (p. 13); I'm not sure whether that has any impact on the ongoing gluten development, though.

He then contrasts heavy mixing with very light mixing, describing the latter thus:

[I]magine that the dough is mixed very slowly, on low speed only.... Gluten development is at a minimum, as is the oxidation of the dough.  Bulk fermentation lasts for many hours, punctuated by a number of folds, and the dough slowly reaches maturity. The carotenoids are not oxidized out of the dough, and the bread flavor is superb.  Loaf volume, however, is comparatively small, because of the relative lack of physical dough development. [pp. 8-9]

In the end, Hamelman argues for a middle course, which develops dough strength but doesn't destroy flavor.  Most books seem to agree, and many even say that, short of overmixing in a professional mixer, you're unlikely to overdevelop the dough in an initial mix.  But in the description I've quoted here, it seems that the effects of little kneading are mixed (pardon the pun) -- the dough requires more tending (folding, and a longer fermentation), but the flavor is greater.

Yet I wonder about his conclusion that the loaf volume is necessarily "comparatively small."  In my experience (which is not that of a professional baker), it seems that proper shaping and added folding (if necessary) contribute a lot more to final loaf volume than extensive mixing or a long initial knead.

In fact, I've taken to running experiments in the past few months, making a lot of familiar recipes, but skipping the mixing/kneading beyond getting the ingredients moist and well-mixed.  I add in a couple extra folds during bulk fermentation as necessary to achieve the kind of dough strength I want.

And, in the end, I don't feel like loaf volume is smaller.  If anything, it seems to be slightly larger than I've generally had.  I haven't gotten around to side-by-side comparisons yet, though in any case, if some of my loaf volumes are smaller, the difference is not very significant.  I haven't noticed a difference in flavor, though it certainly isn't worse. 

But it seems to me that the only real trade-off is maintenance.  In the traditional baking routine with up-front mixing and kneading, I spend 5-10 minutes doing serious initial mixing.  In the "no-knead" (or perhaps "minimal knead") case, I'm forced to tend to the dough for a couple minutes for every 45 minutes or even more often during bulk fermentation.  While that additional maintenance can be bothersome, I'm generally already tied down for one or two folds anyway, and if I do an autolyze, that extends my initial time commitment as well.

So, in sum, I guess I have two questions:

(1) Is there something I'm missing here?  Is there a major advantage to enhanced initial mixing, either something you've read about theoretically or something you've observed in your own baking?

(2) If the advantages aren't that significant, why is the standard method found in the vast majority of books so focused on a long initial knead/mix?

I wanted to create a searchable link to the Illustration provided by long time contributor and all around good guy, Mebake (Khalid). Khalid has taken pen to paper and shown us how to accomplish the procedure of developing gluten and strength in higher hydration dough. His Illustration is very clear and easy to understand. Personally, I use this method nearly every time I bake and find it a valuable tool that doesn't make a mess in the kitchen and has little physical impact, unlike conventional kneading.

Here is the direct link to the Illustration. You can find it under the "Manual" heading at the top of the main page and then by following the Section II, Bread Basics, Process and Techniques, then finally Mixing and Dough Development. scroll down to the Stretching and Folding Illustrated.

Than you Khalid for this most helpful addition to the Handbook.

Eric

I was going to make some Italian bread loaves this A.M. using KA AP flour but my wife had used most of it for pies (go figure).  I used AP for the preferment yesterday, and I have KA Bread Flour on hand, but I've learned I like the softer crumb I get with the AP flour so I chose to use (In what I thought was a flash of brilliance) some White Lily light all purpose flour (essentially cake flour...I think it's about 8% protein).  I probably had about 1/3 KA AP and 2/3 cake flour.  First thing I noticed was how brilliantly white it was (forgot it was bleached), then after mixing for a reasonable time I realized how weak the dough was as it failed the windowpane test badly and wasn't as smooth as I'm used to.  Now I tried to decide what was the best fix, add bread flour (I didn't want to make it much stiffer and I was trying to avoid increasing all ingredients proportionately), or vital wheat gluten which I had on hand.  I decided to add wheat gluten, about 1 Tablespoon from the freezer, but it didn't seem to make much difference right away (I don't know if it should work immediately, or needed an autolyse, or much more mixing or what), so I then added about 2-3 Tablespoons of bread flour and continued mixing.  This time the dough looks like it should, and windowpanes much better.  It's fermenting now.  I'll let you know later how it turns out.  I'm just wondering what you guys would have done.  Thanks for the feedback.

Good Morning...

I had a pleasant surprise this morning while doing my usual Saturday morning bread baking. We were out late last night and I was a little low on sleep, got up early and started mixing up a fav no-knead recipe of mine. After putting all the ingredients in, mixing by hand, and putting the dough to bed, I realized that I forgot the salt!

Since it was only a couple of minutes later, I got the dough back out and added salt... after about 3 minutes of mixing the gluten seemed to be developing already!!!  I was totally amazed and surprised by this... so mixed for 2 more minutes and did a few stretch and folds over a period of about an hour. I have the most beautiful dough I have seen in a long time!

I am thinking it was the higher proteins in the flour that causes this... and because I am sure you will want to know which brand... it is Stone-Buhr flour that I was using.

Here is the recipe if anyone is interested... Basically it is a 1-2-3 sourdough

Method is easy... after hand mixing and kneading (or no kneading LOL), let raise until doubled... form loaves... raise for another 45min to 1 hour... bake at 450 for 30-35 min.. use steam for first 15 minutes.

I am working on learning the other more involved techniques I see on this awesome site, like bigga, poolish, soakers, stretch and folds, rest periods, etc... but this simple method makes a decent bread when you don't have a lot of time to bake.

Sooooo my question is... why did the glutens develop so easy? Is it the proteins in the flour that causes this?

Thanks in advance... Steve

I have a gluten question:

What could have possibly happened to the gluten structure during the first rise of my bread today?

This was a cinnamon/raisin bread which I've done many, many times with dry commercial yeast (recipe from RL Beranbaum's "The Bread Bible"), but this time, tried with a starter. My first attempt at this was more successful, but something strange happened today.

After the first rise, I noticed on the (one and only) stretch and fold that the consistency was a bit off, the stretchy, elasticity of the dough was not the same. Subsequently after an hour in the fridge (recipe calls for this prior to shaping), it seemed there was very little gluten support, as the dough just seemed to have no elasticity and easily broke apart when stretching and shaping. Something happened, and I'm not sure what??

I've done a lot of reading so far on this site. Possible culprits that I can come up with are perhaps, some lactobacilli species in my starter that may have enzyme activity against the gluten, or perhaps the dry milk powder (use Bob's Red Mill) having the same enzyme activity? The initial mix seemed adequate. I don't think I overmixed.

Temp of first rise was mid 70's, this took about 7 hours (consistent with my first successful attempt at this recipe).

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

(I'm allowing it to rise as much as possible, and I'll bake it anyways, but the surface of the proofing loaf is split in several locations, and I doubt it has the ability to rise much more)

I (am very new to bread baking and) want to use the stretch and fold technique that I have been reading about here.  I don’t have a mixer and I want make very wet doughs like for focaccia and ciabatta.   I have done the no-knead method and autolyse and know very well that you can make tasty bread without any kneading whatsoever.  And I am intrigued by the knowledge that whipping the day light out of a dough results in over oxygenation and actually less tasty bread and therefore leaning ever more toward stretch and fold.  

I have not had a chance to read the PR and JH books that describe/discuss this method only the videos and chats on this site.  Is it possible to give some generalized guide lines?

 I am confused about the following:

1)     

After you mix in the yeast how do you know how many times you ought to stretch and fold the dough before you let it rest?  Some advice is just once to quite a few times?

2)     

How do you decide how long you should let the dough rest before you stretch and fold again? Some advice is as short as 10 mins or up to 30 mins.

3)     

How do you know how many cycles of S & F you should do?

4)     

How can you tell when the right amount of gluten is developed?                                                          I have a specific question here.  For example in http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2984/jasons-quick-coccodrillo-ciabatta-bread  or Rose Levy Berenbaum’s sheet foccacia or http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/3621/quick-rustic-ciabatta-pizza-recipe-full-howto-pics it tells you how long to mix with a mixer at a certain speed for a certain length of time and how the dough will suddenly come together.  Not having seen the dough prepared with a mixer is there some way to tell from S & F that you have achieved the same?

5)     

And importantly why can’t I just do a bunch of S & Fs all at once (as kneading used to be) let the dough rest and not hover over it?  Why are the intermediate rest periods important?  Would it not work if I did a bunch of S & Fs and then let the dough rest?

6)     

Related to (5) can I simplify this process in some way and do S & F only once or twice?

7)     

And then is doing S & F in the bowl just as good as taking the dough out on a counter?

8)     

Can you actually over do the S & F and ruin your bread?

Last night, just to see, I mixed water and flour at 100% and 113% hydration and let it autolyse.  The dough(s) did firm up quite a bit after the 1 hour autolyse.  I gave it a few S & F in the bowl with a rubber spatula and that seemed to move things along a little further.  I just couldn’t tell if the gluten was developed as the recipes described they should be.  Would having added yeast changed things?  Those goops are in the fridge.  I will add some yeast to them tonight and see where that takes me.

Well!  This is a long post.  Some of these questions must be so naïve but I hope some them are relevant.

Thank you for any input!

K.

If my bread has more of a homemade muffin texture than bread texture, does that mean I'm not developing the gluten enough? I'm using freshly ground grains and overnight refrigeration. It also passes the window pane test. I never see many, if any, holes. I'm at 65% hydration; if I go any more it doesn't hold it's shape. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.

I am frustrated because I can't seem to figure out: Do I add flour or water to get the dough the way it's supposed to be? I hear the terms tacky and sticky but I can't seem to correct my dough. I am making the PR pizza nepoltana. I am putting the ingredients in the mixer, after weighing, and letting it mix where the dough sticks to the bottom but not the sides just like he says. BUT when I take it out to knead it a bit more (because it sticks to the dough hook) I end up with it all on my hands, whether I use flour or water or both. It's one big mess all over my hands. So I end up getting frustrated and putting it in a bowl in the frig.  This happens with all my breads by hand (I also make PR's master formula whole grain bread). I get to the point where I, after using the machine for initial kneading, take it out to knead by hand, it seems just perfect until about 3-5 minutes later after adding water to my hands to keep it from sticking to them, it gets super tacky and I can't seem to correct it, even by adding flour at that point. It almost becomes like a paste and trying to knead it more just makes it worse. Am I adding too much water but how do I keep my hands from sticking to the dough while kneading? What am I doing wrong?

Thank you and forgive my frustration.

Howdy!

The last few times I've baked sourdough bread, gluten strands have had a difficult time forming, and they seem weak. I knead it in my Bosch first, and had better luck by hand just today. At first I thought I might be overkneading it in the Bosch, but the last time, I'm sure that's not the case. When the dough rises, the gluten strands that had formed are very weak and the dough falls apart easily. When baked, the crust is lumpy since the skin on the dough is weak and breaks while rising.

Any ideas?

Thanks!