Hi TFL'ers,

I am relatively new to bread baking.  I have had some problems, lately, with my second rise.  I have made several loaves, including Peter Reinhart's German Many Seed Loaf (from his Whole Grain Breads: New Techniques, Extraordinary Flavor) which have not risen in their second rise (I believe the shaping step).  The breads do not rise much, even after 2 hours (I keep an eye on the time and rise carefully).  I also am not getting any oven spring when baking.  The crumb, as you might expect, is extremely dense after baking (I use a thermometer to tell when done).

I do not believe it is the yeast, since my bialies and bagels are fine (I made a batch of bialies the same day as the German Many Seed loaf).  I am obviously doing something wrong, but I am not experienced enough to know what I am (or am not) doing!  I am hoping some more experienced bakers might offer me some ideas as to why I am havingh this problem.  Thank you in advance for your help. :)

Regards to all,

Neal

Hi all, 

I am wondering why so many people erroneously assume that (a) fat inhibits fermentation, and (b) sugar increases fermentation. 

When I tell people that sugar (in concentrations above 10-12%) inhibits fermentation because of its hygroscopic properties, they look at me funny and dismiss it (although perhaps the word "hygroscopic" is the cause for that funny look). Their logic is always: "yeast loves sugar. More sugar = happier yeast. Happier yeast = faster fermentation". 

With fat, the opposite happens. People automatically assume that doughs with high proportions of fat are "heavy" and ferment slowly. This, again, is wrong. Fat has no effect on fermentation. "Try making a brioche" I say, to no avail. I think that often doughs with large amounts of fat also have a lot of sugar in them, which is the yeast inhibitor. People, however, are sure that sugar can't be the yeast inhibitor -- so fat must be the culprit. 

What are your thoughts on the matter?

I've been thinking about leavening and fermenting with bread making. The books I've been reading are Jeffrey Hamelman's Bread, Peter Reinhart's Whole grain breads and Artisan breads every day, and Chad Robertson's Tartine bread.

Both Peter Reinhart and Chad Robertson state that the sour flavor for a sourdough comes from the Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis bacteria, not from the yeast. The Lactobacillus produce lactic acid which makes the bread taste sour. This is what I call fermenting.

In a sourdough starter the wild yeast produces gas, and this is what I call leavening. Likewise, commercial yeasts provide leavening, except that they're faster than wild yeast and predictable.

When reading about bread making and pizza making, people use the word fermenting to describe part of the bread making process when I think what they really mean is a combination of both leavening and fermenting. It seems to me that fermenting is a catch-all word for a long rest period for the dough; for example, "bulk fermentation." Coming from the fermented vegetables background (for example, sour kraut, kimchi, and fermented pickles, where the vegetables are put in a brine solution for several weeks) I think of fermenting as the souring process from the Lactobacillus bacteria.

As an example of the terminology problem, in Hammelman's Bread, starting on page 13 he describes bulk fermentation but he mixes together the actions of leavening from the yeast producing gas, and fermentation saying that fermentation produces the superior flavors. He talks about the "production of organic acids during fermentation" without explaining how they're produced. He goes on to say that organic acids develop slowly and take hours before there are enough to benefit the bread's flavor. Nothing incorrect there, but things could be more carefully delineated and explained.

The same is also true for The Yeast Treatise at theartisan.net; fermentation and leavening are being conflated.

When describing bulk fermentation and the role of the temperature of the dough, one of the interesting things Hammelman says is that "the flavor components in the dough prefer temperatures lower than that required for maximum gas production." By "flavor components" I'm assuming he's talking about the Lactobacillus bacteria's activity. This no doubt explains how these no knead recipes work where you put the dough in the refrigerator for several days; the yeast activity is greatly slowed down while the Lactobacillus activity is slowed down to a lesser degree.

Back to the leavening side, if you're using a no-knead recipe where the bread sits for several hours and you do a stretch and fold periodically, you should do the stretch and fold gently, so that you don't squeeze out the gas that's in the dough from the yeast. This shows that leavening is occurring during the inaptly named bulk fermentation step.

For some people this may be hair splitting terminology. Before I retired I was a computer programmer and systems administrator and in that field it is crucial to always use the correct words (and not mash things together) when describing things. So I think this hair splitting is helpful for understanding the different things that are going on in the bread dough.

One new thing that I learned from Robertson's book is that for him a starter isn't just a starter; there are desirable starters and undesirable starters. An undesirable starter is one that's excessively sour. A desirable starter is one where the wild yeast is very active and the Lactobacillus is just getting up to speed, although he doesn't explain it that way and instead uses visual and olfactory clues (very bubbly and doesn't smell a lot).

Because the Lactobacillus are doing the fermenting and improving the bread's flavor and not the wild yeast, I think this is why bakers (for example, Peter Reinhart) get good results by using commercial yeast in addition to a sourdough starter. The starter is mainly seeding the dough with Lactobacillus bacteria for the fermentation and the commercial yeast provides the leavening. The starter may or may not have a good population of wild yeast, but in any event the commercial yeast produces a quicker and more predictable rise.

After thinking about this, one idea that I've had is that it should be possible to redesign the starter so that its recipe favors the Lactobacillus bacteria; the only yeast it needs is whatever is necessary to keep the Lactobacillus happy. Then, in the bread recipe, use commercial yeast for the leavening and use the starter for seeding the dough with Lactobacillus. I'm speculating that with the correct amounts of starter, yeast, and fermentation time that a good bread can be made. And probably without the long three day period that's currently necessary.

Rising times with commercial yeasts are undoubtedly well known and documented; for example, a percentage of yeast (using baker's percentages), a hydration range, and a temperature range will yield an appropriate rise in so many hours and minutes. Then, all that's needed is knowing how long of a fermentation period is needed for the Lactobacillus, how much Lactobacillus, at what temperature, etc. Matching the correct amount of yeast with the correct amount of Lactobacillus for a particular temperature, hydration, and period should yield a good loaf of bread.

All that's needed is for some enterprising food scientist to culture and dry Lactobacillus so that in addition to buying instant dry yeast we can also buy instant dry fermentation.

My son-in-law, Bill, who brews killer beer, has decided to explore the mysteries of acetic acid and asked me for a vinegar mother.  Unfortunately, I don't have one (at least not one that will produce fine vinegar).  Does anyone out there have some to share, or is able to point me to a source.

Thanks,

Stan Ginsberg
www.nybakers.com

I haven't been baking for a bit, and apparently the starter that I thought was frozen in my freezer, wasn't, so time to make some new. This is on day #4 using the BBA starter recipe. Glad I put a plate under it :)

Hi. I had a wierd bread I have been making, and wondering if something is dangerous.

I have been making a sourdough flatbread.

I mix oatbran and buckwheat in a 3:1 proportion. A little bit of salt and molasses. Enough water to make a thick batter. I let it ferment until quite funky. Bake on a griddle, a bit thinner than a pancake. I eat with a schmear of pesto. I like it because it is fast, has a strong taste, and healthy. I had been making english muffins before and this is much easier.

I keep it on the counter in a bowl with plate on top. Refrigerate if i don't eat any for a few days. A few days fermentation and some hooch forms on the surface. I normally stir it back in. I have noticed it will sometimes develope a matte look to the layer on top, especially if it is cool but not cold. Tends to smell a bit different when this happens. (Twice i've also let it go too long and had white mold form. I use a bit from the bottom to restart it.) I am not sure if this is the begining of mold, or something else. I have thought of two options: starchy liquid that dries out enough to form a skin, or i have fermented enough unusual short-chain fatty acids that are causing this.

Hello all,

I have been working with leaven raised breads for the past month with some varying results.  I hae been experimenting with different hydration amounts mostly, however inadvertently with fermentation times as well.  While I have many quesitons the one I would like to focus on now is when to feed my leaven.

  Is a 16 fermentation period for leaven too long? Even if it does not smell sour? 

  Should I try to cut that  time down? 

  I currently refrigerate my starter, which I have read leads to a favored amount of acetic (stronger sourness) acid production.  And therefore I use large 90/10 ratio at 166% hydration feedings of whole wheat flour for my leaven.  I try to bake every other day, but sometimes I don't have the ability too and on the weekends I can not feed the starter.  To refrigerate or not? 

 Will at starter fermented for 8 hours be more vigorous during bulk fermentation than one fermented for 16? 

Thanks! 

I just wanted to add a couple of observations about the 100% whole wheat sandwich breads I've been making lately.

First off, the epoxy method really does work. I've done it now by hand and by mixer and it really isn't that hard. I really like it. It seems to give the whole bread a better texture, and I'm getting whole grain breads that are soft enough for even my toddler to like it for PB&J sandwiches. And that's something.

Another thing is that I've noticed is that the whole wheat seems to stay softer longer than the white bread of the same type I make. I think that the epoxy method has something to do with that. If anyone else could comment on that, I'd really love to hear some ideas.

I find it all incredibly interesting.

I've recently started trying to bake bread. I've tried a few plain breads from "The Bread Baker's Apprentice" and I feel like I'm getting bland bread. I find the bread even lacking in that nice yeasty flavour. I've done overnight fermentations in the fridge as well as out. 

Can anyone advise on what I might be doing wrong?

Thanks so much!

Normally, enriched doughs are made using baker's yeast and relatively short rise times.

I made a Greek celebration loaf using PR's BBA recipe pretty much.

The eggs went in and the fermentation times turned out to be like 8 or 10 hours do to the high percentage of wild yeasts, and a confluence of that and baker's yeast (not instant).

I am wondering if the eggs go bad in this scenario as in "do not eat".

Anyone have experience with this?

Thanks!