So I'm starting my very first sourdough bread and I've made the sourdough starter. I'm using the instructions in the Bread Bakers Apprentice book. I've made bread before (never sourdough) and always had problems with the crumb and crust and I want to make sure I dont have this problem with my first sourdough bread, as I'm sure you can imagine how frustrating it would be to put over a week into something and not have it turn out right.

So my usual problem is that my crumb is dense. It turns out really  nice in pizza dough and bread rolls, but for a nice large bread loaf or boule it just dosent work well. The crust is often 50/50. I've been able to get it nice and brown and crusty before, but other times it turns out grey and weird.

What I usually do is mix the dough via stand mixer for about 5 minutes, transfer it to the counter and kneed for about 5-10 minutes as well. I can never get it to pass the window pane test without the extra kneeding.

After that I let it rise for about and hour or 2. Then I deflate it, mold it into the shape I want and let it rise again for about and hour before putting in the oven.

I received some advice from some bakers at the farmers market near me last weekend. They said that because the area (NYC) is humid this time of year, I should let it rise in the fridge instead of on the counter and that I need to let at rise and deflate 3-4 times before I'll get the nice crumb that I want.

Will these tips solve the problem or are there any other tips you can recomend? Also, what kind of crumb can I expect from a sourdough bread?

I do most of my bread-baking in a convection oven. I have been pleased with the flavor and textures but have been frustrated by my lack of consistency in obtaining crispy crusts when desired especially with baguettes. I have tried the method of "declining oven, door ajar" but this has not consistently helped. After following some recent threads here on the subject, I decided to try something new. So far, in very preliminary testing, I have been quite pleased with the results and wanted to share them with the community.

I am calling the process "active cooling" and quite simply it involves, at the end of the bake, leaving the loaf in the convection oven at the final baking temperature with the convection fan still turned on, opening the oven door about halfway, and letting the loaf cool for five minutes or so in the oven, at which point it could be removed for cooling on a rack. What I found was that, if the crust was hard at the end of the normal bake, it would stay that way during the active cooling and for multiple hours afterwards. Despite the extra time in the oven during the active cooling, there was no significant further darkening of the crust (as would be expected with merely prolonging the baking time) and the crumb stayed as moist as ever.

My theory on why this works is mostly speculation based on a few observations. I noticed that when my baguettes were removed from the oven for cooling on the rack, they would lose 2-3% of their weight over the next hour, most likely representing water loss. From what I have read here, it is this water migration from inside to outside that causes the crust softening. When doing the active cooling, I measured the weight change over the five minutes of active cooling minute by minute. Here is one of my loaves (Loaf was baked at 450° for 15 minutes. 15 min marks the start of the active cooling. Results are loaf weight in grams. Formula is Hamelman's Baguette with poolish):

@15 min=272.5g

@16 min=270.4g

@17 min=269.5g

@18 min=268.2g

@19 min=268.2g

@20 min=267.8g. Take out of oven for passive cooling.

After 1.5 hours more out of oven =265.6g

It seems like the total water loss of ~7gm is virtually the same as with rack cooling but that the active cooling speeds up the process markedly, possibly in a wicking-type process. Maybe, this moving water thru the crust more rapidly diminishes the softening action.

I realize that all this is based on very limited observations as I have tried this with only two very different baguette formulas but the results were so striking that I wanted to pass it along. I also realize there are many variables in the process including optimal active cooling temps, length of cooling time, applicability to different formulas and ingredients that need to be worked out. I would be very interested in fellow tfl'ers' thoughts on the process as well as their experiences if they try it with their own ovens.

Jessica

I seem to have trouble getting a good crisp crust, I use a Neff double fan oven. Ive tried putting a pan of water in at the bottom and removing it after 15 mins or so but the crust is always soft after cooling the bread, any ideas how to remedy this anyone ? also when I use a proving basket the bread  is always very floury on the surface no matter how much I remove the exess, any ideas on that one ?

Cheers

Dave W

A few days ago, I posted about the success my first sourdough loaf, and the fact that I am now totally hooked. I baked a second loaf today, and I am both ecstatic and disappointed by the results. Ambivalent feelings aside, the bread tasted great, and the crust was that delightfully crunchy-yet-chewy texture I was looking for. The crumb was moist and delicate, but there were no large and irregular holes that I would like to have seen. The flavor was mildly sourdough (as expected), and the oven spring was amazing.

The scoring, however, didn't go as smoothly as I had hoped. My knife, although extremely sharp, dragged through the dough rather than slicing smoothly as it did on the first loaf. The dragging knife deflated one side of the loaf a bit, but I baked it anyway.  It was a very pleasant surprise when the loaf turned out so well.  I believe part of the problem may have been the slightly increased "stickiness" of the surface of the second loaf, as compared to the first.

For this second loaf, I used the "Mild" San Francisco Sourdough Bread recipe from chapter 4 of Mike Avery's "An Introduction To Sourdough Baking" (free sample). The recipe is:

* 2 cups starter (mine is approximately 166% hydration - equal amounts by volume)
* .5 cup whole wheat flower
* 2.5 cups white bread flower
* 1/4 cup water
* .5 tsp salt

Because of shoulder pain, I couldn't perform the manual kneading called for in the recipe, so I mixed and kneaded the ingredients in my Kitchen Aid stand mixer for about 4 - 5 minutes - just long enough to develop a minimal amount of gluten. I then put it into an olive oil coated bowl and used the "stretch and fold" method. I folded the dough at 45-minute intervals 3 times, then after a 45-minute rest I placed it in a 10-inch skillet on an oiled parchement paper to rise for 2 hours. The loaf was baked in a pre-heated cast iron dutch oven at 450 degrees with the lid on for 30 minutes, then uncovered for 15 minutes. At that time, the loaf was nicely browned and the internal temperature was 204 degrees farenheit. It had raised much more than I had expected. After cooling, the weight was just under 2 pounds. The recipe was for two 1-pound loaves, but I opted to bake it as a single loaf.

Here are the pictures of the finished loaf, as well as the cast iron pot used as a cloche, and the nice red wine that kept me company while the bread was "working". Your comments are welcome, and yes, I know that many of you only use weight for measurement, but Mike's recipe looked good and was only avaiable as volumetric.

Ok don't hate me, I work in a hotel kitchen, with commercial frozen proof and bake bread. Chef wants crispy crust on his rolls, I can't get it, I use steam, for 15 to 45 seconds but it is just soft and commercial. I suspect it is ingredients, could it be the oil, the datem, or other emulsifiers, or preservatives? I am going in early today to make real bread to show him I know how to make crusty bread. But if you have any ideas I could use the help.

Thanks,
Martha