Hi all!

First time poster from Los Angeles who is so impressed with the amount of knowledge contained and shared on TFL. I've been searching the site for the past two weeks, and it's been inspirational!

I have been making bread with preferments to develop more complex taste--even in recipes not calling for preferments. This, and the many posts saying that sourdough starter doesn't mean sour bread, has made me interested in building a sourdough starter.

I was wondering if building a starter using commercial yeast was possible, along the lines of making a preferment with commercial yeast and then "feeding" it to keep it alive. My thoughts are that my native yeast would out-compete the commercial yeast and eventually dominate the starter.

Am I way off base?

Jason

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**EDIT: 3 Nov 2010**

My attempt to make a starter with the pineapple juice method failed; After reading around on here and on sourdough-specific sites, I think the starter was too wet. I kept having to stir in liquid pooling on top, and eventually it molded.

The "Sourdough 101" method worked beautifully, and I now have a healthy, vigorous starter. My commercial yeast "starter" (better put "levain"?) is also doing well. I am making bread with the commercial starter tonight and will make bread with the sourdough starter over the weekend.

Oh, not to TFL.

It was only a week ago that I bid farewell to Okinawa and "my" Marines.  Yes, I was working with the Marines - other details must remain fuzzy, but this one is pretty much out in the open now. It still cuts a little too close to the bone to think about those fine young men and women each one ready and willing to fight "in every clime and place where (they) can take a gun."  War is a terrible thing - but the dedication of these Marines is something for which all US citizens should be grateful.

And I will always "heart" Okinawa. My last big shopping trip into Naha was to the Ryubo to buy items that I can incorporate into my kitchen.  They are all teeny tiny (as is my kitchen - by US standards.)

So I was fortunate to have a week rusticating at my crumbled abode before returning to the demands of my so-called "normal" life.

Seemed liked to perfect time to buy a new range.  I've come to terms that in my current residence, the deck oven is just not realistic and so I settled on a simple KitchenAid convection gas range.  No, no steam assist.

So I am saying farewell to my favorite frenemy - my old range.  I'm getting a bit sentimental about that, too.  I stirred up one last batch of jam and thought of the countless batches of jams, jellies, pickles, caramels, and marshmallows (as well as meals) that were cooked on those burners.  The ones that I had to blow on just right to get to light.  Maybe.  Whose electronic ignition would mysteriously start clicking for no particular reason and stop clicking days or hours later for similarly mysterious reasons.  (The repairman finally told me "Lady, I'm not taking your money.  Get a new range."  It came with the house and was old when I moved in - over 20 years ago.)

Then there was the oven whose every hot spot I knew by heart, until recently when it decided to not bake anything towards the front.  True, it had also started to perform better as a space heater than an oven and the broiler had long since ceased to function.  However, it had been a good old pal and it seemed like I should give it a final bake. (Yes, I have seen the Ikea ad that tells me that I am crazy because things don't have feelings and the new one is better - but I'm in a delicate state of mind.)  So I decided to do a little test on this new "Pizza Crust" yeast.

Fleischmann's Yeast has been promoting this product as allowing one to bake a pizza in 30 minutes because of the conditioners in the packet.  Well, heating the old oven takes more time that that, but except for that, I could test the claim.

I also decided to do the test using the formula on the package because presumably Fleischmann's had spent some money developing the right formula for the application.  I won't reproduce it here as - well, you'll see.

I did note that the formula contained a lot of sugar (1.5 tsp for less than 2 cups of flour ) (and yes, we'll need to deal with volumes here) and a lot of fat (3 tbl of oil) The ingredients were mixed and kneaded for four minutes and then shaped immediately. 

I will have to say that the dough handled quite nicely.  The dough stretched out easily even though it had not rested at all and maintained itself well through a few tosses.  I'm thinking that these dough conditioners now sorely tempt me - especially if the dough was headed for decorative work where taste doesn't matter.

The pizza was shaped, topped and with the aid, of a piece of parchment paper (which I consider serious cheating) because the dough seemed a bit too flabby to be loaded straight from the peel,  loaded onto my baking stone, and baked.

The taste?

About like you'd expect.  The crust had an odd matte appearance and tasted mostly slightly sweet.  It had a fine crumb with none of those big bubbles I usually find in my pizza crust (both levain and commercial yeast varieties).  Really, though, how could it be otherwise?  We all know that it is the fermentation process that gives us the big holey crumb and this dough didn't ferment except for the time it took me to put the toppings on it.  It wasn't awful - it just wasn't good.  The texture was also somewhat lacking.  The crust was - solid, but not crisp.

The speed with which the whole thing came together also was incompatible with my mise en place.  I'm used to having that rest time between pre-shaping and shaping to get toppings together or make sure my work area has been cleaned.

I also find that I enjoy the whole rhythm of the "fold in the bowl" method of developing the dough to traditional kneading.  I've kneaded a lot of dough in my time and I'm still pretty good at it, but the fold in the bowl method is just so much less effort - less cleanup, too.

So, my opinion?  There's a place in this world for fast, from scratch pizza.  You've got hungry kids yelling for pizza?  This is a great product.  You have a pizza that is easily shaped and you have it in 30 minutes start to finish.  Most kids will love the sweetness in the crust and eat it down.  You want something that reminds you of that trip to Italy?  This is not it.

I am sure that the yeast could be used in different formulas to obtain better results (and there was a review on these pages that liked the yeast and the method very much), but the bottom line for me is that I missed the subtle qualities that good fermentation brings to the party.  I'd rather plan ahead and enjoy my usual crust - or go without.

As I write, my old range is headed out the door and a new one is headed in.  I'm looking at a picture of "my" Marines and frankly getting a bit misty.  But life goes on.  We grow or die.  How fortunate I am to have the memories that I do and a future full of memories to be made.

Happy Baking!

Hello everyone,

As a disclaimer, I know that there are a handful of past yeast questions on these forums. I have used the search feature and spent a while last night reading through some threads, but I still can't seem to find my information of desire.

What I am wondering about is how well commercial yeast thrives after incorporated into a dough or pre-ferment. On this site, I have read about people claiming that once a poolish or biga has doubled and is no longer growing, it has peaked and should be used at that point. The average time span being around 6-12 hours from my readings. I have read quite a bit of Peter Reinhart's books, Crust and Crumb and BBA in particular. He talks about making your pre-ferment and after it doubles, punching it down and refrigerating it overnight, or up to 72 hours. So, what happens after 72 hours? Or in the case of some of the posts I've read here, after 12 hours? Does the yeast die and start producing off-flavors?

I know that with a natural starter, it can be kept almost indefinitely by feeding it. I guess something I don't understand is why this can't be done with commercial yeast. Does commercial eventually die even if being fed, while natural doesn't?

All of this leads me to wonder why true pate fermentee, or "old dough" is possible. If on day 1 you make a final dough and reserve a piece for the next day, then obviously a portion of day 1 is incorporated into day 2. If you take a piece of day 2 and do the same thing for day 3, then day 3's dough would have elements of not only day 2's dough in it, but day 1's as well. What happens on day 200, when there are still minute quantities of day 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 etc. doughs still being recycled day-after-day? Would this not imply that the commercial yeast is constantly being refreshed and rejuvinated over long periods of time? If so then I wonder why you can't just make a biga or poolish, put it in the fridge, and feed it just like a sourdough or levain over an extended period of time?

This post is the by-product of an immense amount of strong, black coffee and culinary curiosity. If any part of it too "all over the place" just ask me to try to reiterate and I will do so in a less caffeinated state of being.

Thanks,

Randy

Okay, I have wanted to create this checkered bread - two tones. Wanna capture the 'cubic' shape idea as well (Asian bakers have access to a square bread mould - very cute and handy!). Although the bread is not cubic, I love the effects!

+ The green color is from Pandan paste (which is made from a leaf native to South Asia. It has sweet vanilla fragrance)

Instructions here.

I think I may have enuff of Asian bread. Opting to make some proper sourdough now. It's been months I've made any!!

I'm wondering if the jar of Instant Yeast I have has perhaps lost it's ooomph and wondered if there was a quick and simple test I can put it through? Unlike Active Dry Yeast that would foam and bubble profusely when added to a cup of lukewarm water, Instant just clouds up the glass but creates no foam. (This is precisely why I'm wondering if mine is dead, if it SHOULD have foamed and bubbled.)

I am curious - what kinds of breads do you make with your sourdough starter?

And something else... when you make your breads with sourdough starter, do you use commercial yeast?  or do you go without the commercial yeast?  If you go without the comm. yeast, does your bread rise successfully?  And how long does it take for it to rise?

This is something I am  working on and would love to hear what you all are doing.

Newbie - beckyohh40

I noticed there are some recipes that require commercial yeast in addition to making an overnight biga, While others don't use commercial yeast and depend only on the starters yeast. Why is this? More of a rise? would there not be a trade off between taste?

Also, what's more preferrable, a biga or a poolish (I'm guessing it would depend on your desired final hydration level?)