The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Pane a Lievito Naturale con Segale Integrale

  • Pin It
JoeVa's picture
JoeVa

Pane a Lievito Naturale con Segale Integrale

Yesterday, I was reading about Ezio Marinato. He is a famous italian baker and teacher, one of the most representative member of the italian team at the "Couple du Monde the Boulangerie - Paris" (along with Piergiorgio Giorilli) and gold medal at the "Mondial du Pain, Goût et Nutrition - Lyon 2007".


He is also a baking consultant and I already knew him because of his work with Molino Quaglia and Farina Petra.


So, I was reading about his bread/courses/work ... and I stopped on this bread: "Pane a Lievito Naturale con Segale Integrale", that is "Sourdough Bread with Whole Rye". As I am in a "focus on process" period, or "... learn the subtle art of fermentation ..." (Shiao-Ping reminds me Hamelman's statement in the post "body and mind"), I thought this bread could be really close to the basic Pain Au Levain I'm working on.


After a receipt translation to bakers % I saw again that schema! It's a while I see that schema, maybe with some little differences in the process, and when you see the same bread made with almost the same schema by a lot of professional/inspired bakers you focus on the subtle art of fermentation.


My first thought was: this is J.Hamelman Vermont Sourdough with Increased Whole Grain but:



  • not increased prefermented flour: 15% vs 20%

  • not liquid levain: stiff 50% hydration vs liquid 125% hydration

  • more "intensive mix" vs "improved mix"


Now that I have a better knowledge of mixing techniques and requirements (thanks to Dan DiMuzio book) I understand the main timing difference in the process: 01:00 bulk + 03:00 proof @26°C vs 02:30 bulk + 02:30 proof @25°C.


Here the original receipt, I let you play with all the math!



Ingredients: 4000g bread flour (W280), 1000g whole rye flour, 1500g stiff levain, 25g malt, 50g toasted malt, 100g salt, 3500g water.


Dough temperature: 26/28 °C


Mixing: 5 minutes speed 1 + 10 minutes speed 2


Directions: autolyze the flour with 2750g water, mix 5/6 minutes in speed 1; wait 30 minutes, then add all the ingredients and the remaining water, mix 10 minutes speed 2. Bulk fermentation about 70/80 minutes at 27°C. Division (suggested piece 500g to 1000g) and preshaping with 15 minutes bench rest, then proof at 28°C for about 3 hours. Bake.



Here my attempt at the bread. I adjusted timing and ingredients according to my environment (for example I raised the final hydration from 66% to about 68%). Next try a would go for a short mix that is higher hydration (70%) longer bulk fermentation (3 hours) with 4/5 set of stretch and fold.


      
     [The stiff starter before and after 8/10 hours @20/22°C, inoculation 25%]


                  
                 [Malted Barley Flour + toasted and dough before autolyse]


                  
                  [The bread]


                  
                  [The crumb]


This bread was prepared in my mom's kitchen and baked 3 Km far in my "new working on house" where my oven is now placed. When I will finish to build my kitchen this oven will be dismissed so this is the last opportunities to show it to you.


                                                              


Here the "technical specifications": very cheap electric static oven, 20 years old, crazy temperature controller, hot in the back cool in the front, no light bulb (exploded), no door handle (broken, I use a screwdriver to open the door).

Comments

SteveB's picture
SteveB

Giovanni,


Seeing your loaves and your oven serves as a perfect reminder that a fine artisan can produce great bread even with poor tools.


 


SteveB


www.breadcetera.com


 

hansjoakim's picture
hansjoakim

Those are beautiful loaves, JoeVa! :)


I love the golden crust colour you achieved and your well-developed crumb. It strikes me too that 10 mins. on 2nd speed is perhaps a bit long (especially after an autolyse), so a shorter mix will likely open the crumb up some more.


Either way, I bet those loaves taste great.

arlo's picture
arlo

I am glad to see you can make do when suffering with poor tools at times, it gives me even more hope since I always seem to get stuck with poor ovens in my apartments!


Congrats on the wonderful loaves!

jacobsbrook's picture
jacobsbrook

I totally agree those are beautiful loaves! 

Bertel's picture
Bertel

Very nice, complimenti. If I may ask what exactly are you reading? I did a quick search but couldn't find a lot of recipes of him online.

JoeVa's picture
JoeVa

You are right, there are not so much informations in the web. An Italian man would say: ... he's just a baker ... And I say, we are in Italy and it's just bread :(


I found the recipe HERE.


Giovanni


 

MC's picture
MC

And the crumb looks marvelous. I love the scoring too. Just a question: why did you score the starter?

JoeVa's picture
JoeVa

MC, it's a typical practice in Italy. Very stiff starter are scored with a cross. Why? The mystical answer a grandmother would give you (in the south of Italy) is "religious"! The technical answer maybe to help the expansion of the stiff starter!? But I think this is just nonsense, there are also people that store the stiff starter tied up with string in a couche.


Giovanni

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

... tied up with a string


Hi Giovanni


I have seen both the French and Japanese bakers tie up their stiff starter like that.  What do you think they try to achieve?


Shiao-Ping

JoeVa's picture
JoeVa

I don't know what's the effect of this procedure. Maybe Debra Wink could help us with a more formal explanation!


Giovanni


 


EDIT: I have found THIS thread where Debra wrote about this argument.

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

I found answers to it here and HERE.


Thanks for the link. 


Shiaoping

ques2008's picture
ques2008

lovely crumb and crust, joeva.  bet you can't wait for your new kitchen, but your mom's oven sure produced a masterpiece!

JoeVa's picture
JoeVa

Yes, I can't wait for my new kitchen ... but I'm going to build it with my father and this is not as fast as "go and buy")! I think I'm far from the masterpiece, my taste wants more, I mean something different I cannot still reproduce.


Giovanni

Bertel's picture
Bertel

Great, thx for the link. Will try it someday. How did you keep it at the right temperature if I may ask?

JoeVa's picture
JoeVa

Well temperature, use all the tricks you know. For me just put in my microwave oven (turned off!!) with a cup of warm water and a digital thermometer. When I take it out, to give it a fold for example, I check the temperature and if this is too cold I warm up a bit the water with the microwave. But this variable cannot be exactly controlled for me so ... learn from the dough.


Giovanni

Bertel's picture
Bertel

Thanks Giovanni. I see you live in Italy, I'm in Umbria myself. Controlling temperature in the summer is even more 'fun'. If I may be so free. I live in Umbria, Perugia region. Haven't found any proper bread/bakers here. The flour I can get is not very good. Could you tell me where you get yours?


I once bought a big bag of Caputo, great flour for the beginner :-) but not Italian I think. I also saw you use martimucci.it, are you happy with that? I tried to get a price from them but the website's functionality is wanting, guess I have to call. Also visited 2 Molino's in Piemonte, nice but a bit 'touristy' and expensive but nice.  Not very strong though which I have understood is an Italian thing. Do you know if Italian bakers use a lot of imported flour to make big holed bread?

JoeVa's picture
JoeVa

Hello. This is a complicated argument. I'm doing a lot of research about wheat and flour. Lots of miller import grain (not flour) from US and Canada. These are hard winter/spring wheat and durum. They mix these high protein grains with other grains to get the "desired flour". Take a look at THIS.


I leave you a private message to help you buy the flour.


Giovanni

longhorn's picture
longhorn

The bread is gorgeous but I am blown away by the expansion of your starter! Spectacular!


Well done!


Jay

rayel's picture
rayel

Joe Va, gorgeous bread, color, scoring, lovely crust texture, and crumb. Great pictures.  Ray

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

Shiaoping