The Fresh Loaf

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Still struggling with Horst Bandel’s Black Pumpernickel

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txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

Still struggling with Horst Bandel’s Black Pumpernickel

I made this bread for the 3rd time this past weekend, and it still didn't rise up to fill the pullman pan during the bake. I've tried all sorts of hydration levels, the latest dough was the wettest one, but it didn't make any difference in terms of the height in the bread. I tried to let it proof to 3/4 inch below the pan lid like instructed in the recipe, also tried to let it proof higher and lower before, no difference, the bread just does not get to the top. So my question is: has anyone baked this bread and have it filled the whole pullman pan to the top, WITHOUT adding any extra flour? What's your trick? I held back water during mixing and add as needed, this lst time I added 10 oz of the final 12.8oz water, I don't think the dough can take any more water than that. The first two times I kept the dough drier, no difference. 


Since it's a big batch of dough, KA doesn't do a good job of mixing it. I actually mixed the high gluten flour with some water first to get the gluten started, then added in the rest of the soakers and rye chops. I am obsessed to get it right but running out of ideas!


I used:


13X4X4 pullman pan (the recipe indicated 13X3.75X3.75 pan, but I think they are the same thing? Really don't think that 0.25 would make such a big difference)


Sir Lancelot high gluten flour


my rye starter was active and double every time after I feed it


 


What gives?

hansjoakim's picture
hansjoakim

Let me just preface this reply by saying that I haven't tried this specific formula myself.


Now, you proofed the dough to the specified height, but the loaf didn't rise during baking? How much does the dough expand from shaping until baking? How long's the proofing time?


How's the crumb? Is it very dense, or is it riddled with small, round holes? Have you tried making it with the specified amount of water? Don't be afraid to make these exceedingly wet - dip your hands in a bowl of water and gently mold the dough into a log before placing into the tin. The wetter, the better (to a certain degree).


What about the top of the loaf? Any sign of a sinking top? If the interior of the loaf is really dense and compact, I'm betting that the dough is either slightly dry or the loaf is overproofed. And that's "dry" in a "rye" sense of the word. Be very cautious about adding more flour to these doughs.


Perhaps most importantly, what about your ordinary 100% rye loaves? Do they expand more, less or the same as the pumpernickel formula?

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

Thanks for the response, your questions are spot on.


- Per the recipe, bulk fermentation is 30 minutes and proofing is 50 (let it rise to 3/4 inch below the top), that's what I did.


- not much expansion during fermentation (but then my 100% rye dough ususally doesn't either, it's only 30 minutes after all), but quite a bit during proofing. It filled a bit over 1/2 of the pan when I put it in, by the end of the 50 minutes, it's a little more than 1/2 inch below the pan, so it grew 1 to 1.5 inch during proofing. (the height of the pan is 4 inches)


- the loaf didn't sink, just remained the same size during baking. The first two times, I kept it drier, so it had a domed top when I put it into the pan, the dome remained at the end of the proof, as well as at the end of the bake. This time, the dough was wet enough that I can't lift the log without it sagging, and I put it into the pan and patted it flat, it remained that shape during proofing and baking.


- I never use flour when dealing with high percentage rye dough, always wet my hands and counter.


- I will cut into this loaf tonight and post some pictures. Last time the crumb felt "wet" at first, then got drier (as in "good rye mouthfeel") after one or two more days. The crumb is compact like 100% rye I made before, studded with all the soaker bits. No holes at all.


- I've only made 100% rye once, but some high percentage rye (70 to 90%) a few times, I'd say it expanded about the same as my 100% rye, maybe a tad more, but not by much. The formula has some high gluten flour in it, so I thought it will expand more in the oven.

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

Here are some pictures for the last loaf, maybe someone can see what I did wrong from those?


dough into the pan, about halfway up



 


At the end of proofing, 3/4inch below the top, more or less



 


After the bake, still 3/4inch below the top, maybe shrank a little bit?



 


Doesn't SEEM to be sagging on top



 


Crumb 36 hours after finishing baking



 


Any ideas? More water? More proofing? Less proofing? I didn't add any extra flour, added 10oz of the 12.8oz final water, 5 oz of water used in old bread soak, didn't measure how much got absorbed by the rye berries, I'd say about 7 to 8 oz.


Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I don't think 2oz more of water would hurt it. I cant touch the edges but how thin can you cut a slice?  A forth of an inch?   If the loaf seems too crumbly, you might want to add a little bit more water.


Mini

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

Since the instruction made a big deal about oiling and flouring inside of the lid, I thought the bread should rise to touch the lid, and form a neat cube?


Yeah, I can cut thin slices, even <1/4inch, well for the first 2 slices anyway, after that my arm/hand gets tired and the slices got ugly. :P I thought the crumb would be too wet, but it's actually not, it's mostly moist in a good way. Hmmm, maybe I should try to add even more water? That would be a very wet dough!


For some reason, that empty 3/4 inch space is taunting me. :P

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

It's like golf, you choose the club and calculate for the best shot.  If you chose the wrong club and hit it well, all hell could break loose!   When you hit the correct club well, then you can be proud of your shot.   That's why you grease and flour the top lid, just in case it gets there.  There is no rule that says it has to fill out the form, but it could happen.  When it does, you are ready! 


I have noticed different rising powers with three rye flours milled in three different countries, a lot could depend on the growing season and milling.  Just keep greasing up that lid just in case.  That is no reason to think that your bread has failed or hasn't come "up to par."  Your loaf looks A+  No. 1!  Eat and enjoy!    


Will you be getting a slicing machine?   A 1/4 inch slice is standard for this kind of rye loaf.


Mini

hansjoakim's picture
hansjoakim

Oh yes, looks terrific! I'd love me a taste of that!

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

For the encouraging words, now I feel better about the bread, it does taste very yummy!

Beabarba's picture
Beabarba

Hallo,


You did wrong nothing. Your bread looks great. That's the way german pumpernickel are looking! They are heavy and don't rise very much. Enjoy your bread, I'm sure, it tastes good. 


Beate (from Germany) 

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

Nothing like a confirmation from a native German. :)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

amounts so you have a 10% increase in the dough weight.  Hitting the upper plate then would be easy.  A half inch larger pan size makes a big difference!


Mini