The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Sourdough Down Under

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

Sourdough Down Under

My son has been singing a song called Down Under.  Listening to this song with his i-pod ear-phones, he dances out of his room as he comes into my kitchen to check if there are any goodies to snack on.  I asks him what song it is; he says, Mum, this song is iconic and it goes:

Traveling in a fried-out combie
On a hippie trail, head full of zombie
I met a strange lady, she made me nervous
She took me in and gave me breakfast
And she said,

Do you come from a land down under?
Where women glow and men plunder?
Cant you hear, cant you hear the thunder?
You better run, you better take cover.

Buying bread from a man in Brussels
He was six foot four and full of muscles
I said, do you speak-a my language?
He just smiled and gave me a Vegemite sandwich
And he said,

I come from a land down under
Where beer does flow and men chunder
Cant you hear, cant you hear the thunder?
You better run, you better take cover.

Lying in a den in Bombay
With a slack jaw, and not much to say
I said to the man, are you trying to tempt me
Because I come from the land of plenty?
And he said,

Oh! do you come from a land down under? (oh yeah yeah)
Where women glow and men plunder?
Cant you hear, cant you hear the thunder?
You better run, you better take cover.

And he is so stingy; he wouldn't let me take a photo of him dancing.

Driving my kids home from their tennis yesterday afternoon, I was getting an earful of suggestions from them as to how to do an Aussie Sourdough.  My son said there's got to be Vegemite and my daughter said there's got to be some gold or green color (they are the colors Australia wears in international sports).  And so I said, there's got to be jacaranda somewhere because it's the jacaranda season now (the saying goes, if when jacarandas are in bloom and you haven't started studying for your exams, you are in trouble).  And here is our Sourdough Down Under: 

 

        

 

                                                     

                                                     

 

                 

                     

My Formula

  • 350 g starter @75% hydration
  • 350 g Australia's Laucke's Wallaby unbleached bakers flour
  • 70 g Kraft (new) Vegemite, diluted in 35 g water (Note: this new product contains yeast extract from barley (30%) and cream cheese (28%) with caramel flavor and salt.)
  • 200 g water
  • 30 ml (ie, 2 tbsp) olive oil
  • 6 g salt (less salt than normal as there is salt in Vegemite)
  • 157 g pistachio, roasted (I had 250 grams sitting on my stove to cool off, everybody went past the nuts and ate some; by the time I was ready to mix them into the dough, barely 2/3's left.)   This is the "green" color that I can think of for this sourdough.  At the last minute I coated the nuts with one tablespoon of olive oil (just before they were to be mixed in) as I was afraid that the roasted nuts might draw some hydration out of the dough.
  • Extra rice flour for dusting the proofing basket

Total dough weight 1.2 kg and total dough hydration (approx.) 75%

                                                     

  1. Mix all ingredients (except the pistachio nuts) by hand
  2. Autolyse 40 minutes
  3. Perform the first set of stretch and folds, about 30 - 40 strokes
  4. After 45 minutes, do the 2nd set of stretch and folds and at the same time mix in the nuts
  5. After another 45 minutes, do the 3rd set of stretch and folds
  6. After another 45 minutes, do the 4th set of stretch and folds (and this will serve as the pre-shaping)
  7. Rest 20 minutes
  8. Shape into a boule and place in a rice flour dusted and linen lined basket
  9. Proof in room temperature for an hour then place the dough into the refrigerator for retardation (I did 8 hours)
  10. Bake the next morning with steam at 240 C for 20 minutes and another 20 minutes at 220 C.

I think my starter did not like the foreign elements from the Vegemite.  Every kid in Australia knows that Vegemite is a yeast product which contains Vitamin B.  But it is also heavily loaded with preservatives; it can sit safely in your pantry for a long, long time.  My dough had hardly risen when I put it into the refrigerator (maybe only 50%).  There wasn't much oven spring either (probably another 50%).  If I had done this sourdough before, I would most likely have spiked it with some dry instant yeast.

But the aroma was strong!  The whole house smelled delicious when the baking was going on.

 

           

 

                                                           

 

     

 

It is a beautiful night tonight, clear and lots of stars.  My husband had just had a dip after a few hours work in the backyard and he called everybody out to see the moon.  In a couple of nights, it will be the Chinese Moon Festival, the 15th of August in the Lunar calendar when the moon will be the fullest and brightest.  I reckon there are more stars visible in the southern hemisphere than in the north; at least that is the case in Asia, where I grew up, lots of industries and, sadly, pollution.

My kids love today's bake and so do I.  My husband said the stencil looks like Australian aboriginals' art work on their cave walls (the latter was considered one of the earliest form of recoding of human history).

You could hardly call pistachio Australian; but roasted, their nutty aroma compliments the rich flavor of Vegemite very well.  I will have no problem having a slice of this toasted with some cheese over a glass of Australian red.  Yum yum ....

 

                                                                                       

Shiao-Ping 

Comments

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Absolutely perfect!...Now if you could just add Hugh Jackman and envite me over! : )

Sylvia

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

My daughter says Hugh Jackman is very hot!  She told me she has started making a list of Australian hot actors and singers.  I said if there are many, why do you need to make a list?  She said you don't know about that they are Australians; and she says she can send me her list if I want.  I said that won't be necessary.

Thanks, Sylvia. 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Silly me, I suddenly realized what the words are.  

Your bread are true works of art.   I find I like to view your blogs when I have a certain state of mind and lots of time to enjoy them fully.   Thank you.

Mini

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

Hi Mini

How is family?  It must be really cold up there now.  Our weather is getting unbearable.  If we lived on the equator, the season would be the same all year round.  I am joking; I wouldn't want that either.

A certain state of mind... yes, that's what I find I'd like, and that's what I find I get with a pot of Oolong and its rising smoke of steam... in early morning, like now.

I need to cut down on the length of words though (no wonder a certain "state of mind" is needed to read?!).  (Can you tell me where to find smily faces on TFL when I do text, please.)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I wouldn't shorten anything.  As far as smiling faces go, on TFL they can be found right next to the date and time in the upper right corner of many replies.    The only other ones I know are these:   :)  ;)  :9  :P  :>  Ü  :D   some have double chins:  :))  :D)

Yes it is getting cool and I'm raking leaves and trimming bushes and trees.  The lawn needs one last mow.   I'm putting on my winter tires tomorrow.  The Law here stipulates they must be on by Nov 1st  so I've been keeping a low profile up 'till now. 

Mini

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

There is a beautiful road in Taipei called Tun-Hwa South Road.  Beautiful camphor trees lined the thin stip of centre area dividing the two different directions of traffic.  I was back there on a businss trip many years ago.  We saw an old man raking the leaves; it must have been late fall; I said to my girl friend who was walking with me at the time that if one day I retired I would love to have a job like that.  She said, don't be a fool, there would be a queue of people waiting for that fine job, it won't be your turn in a million years.....

right next to the date and time in the upper right corner of many replies

I still couldn't find it.  In the upper right corner of a reply is the date and time but apart from the user name or the user photo, there is nothing I can click to get the smiling faces out.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I ment our faces and those of smiling members,  they are so much nicer don't you think?

This morning as I took my car in to service.  I saw a machine going down the sidewalk sweeping all the leaves onto the margin between the sidewalk and the already swept road.  It was so lovely all the yellow piled up between the contrasting dark wet pathways.  So peaceful and calm... and wet.   I couldn't help but think... what will it look like when the wind comes? I suppose when I go back to pick up my car, they will be gone.  Like they were never there, but I got to see them.

I grew up jumping into leaf piles and not caring if I was covered in them.  I'm sure Mom tolerated it for a while, after all, we kids were picking up the yard.  We would brush the cob webs off the rake or two.  I don't ever remember two identical ones.  There was a big fan rake and a garden rake, short and stiff with a row of spikes, the kind you never want to step on.  Eventually she would burn them in the gravel driveway  (not any more! city ordinances)  and we would all smell like smoke.  It was a family thing, sometimes a neighbor thing,  sometimes a community thing.   Then the leaf raker was presented, 1973?   Some kind of contraption like a push mower but twice as wide with brushes mounted on the front axle.  There was a large container mounted behind the axle which hung down from the handle and when pushed it brushed a steady stream of leaves into it filling i up till they cascaded over the sides.  I can still hear it in my memories.  Then it would get emptied and filled again and again.  Made raking easier but took the fun out.

I just put a pizza in the oven.  I made the dough days ago with some starter and a pinch of yeast.  I had also added dried diced vegitables (soup mix) and oregano and used spelt flour.  With toppings it looks sort of like my leaf piles...   Then I'm back to my leaves.  If only the sun would come out.

Mini

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

... haven't I started you on something. 

The funny thing was years later we finally settled back in Australia with plenty of fallen leaves in our front driveway to rake if we wanted to.  Often the fallen pine needles from the back yard would be blown off to the front.   But, I don't know, it's just not the same ... raking leaves on the concret driveway?!

Your lovely pizza does look like a pile of autumn leaves on - fit for an autumn feast!  Can I please have more of it?

Shiao-Ping

p.s.  about the smily faces, silly me, I thought I was getting a free lesson.

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Hahaha - a novel idea, Shiao-Ping. If you wanted to go a step further with the Aussie bit, you could change the pistachios to macademias, which are indigenous to Oz.  But then you'd lose the green element. Always a compromise...!

So, seriously, how did the Vegemite show up in the bread flavours? Did it make a positive contribution? Would you add it again?

PS: The "new" Vegemite is an imposter! There can only ever be ONE Vegemite, and that's the original!

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

I am glad that you said the "new" Vegemite is an imposter (because it is!).  Maybe they are just trying to revamp a very old product.  But sorry to say that we are not a Vegemite family; I think my kids are probably embarrassed in front of their peers.

After I put the dough into the refrigerator to retard, I was wondering to myself why I didn't think of using macadamias earlier.  It's because of the color, I know; also I think I got confused as to whether or not it is indigenous to Australia because the Chinese translation of macadamias actually says Hawaiian nuts!   

How did the Vegemite show up in the bread flavours?  Well, put it this way, if I didn't tell you that it's got Vegemite in there, you probably wouldn't have guessed it.  But if I then tell you that it's got Vegemite, you would say, oh yeah, that's right.  

I think the flavour of this cream cheese Vegemite is very mild, so 70 grams in my formula weren't very much at all.  Chances are quite slim that I would make it again; but if I were, it would be a good idea to increase the quantity to 100 grams!  And if I were to use the "original" Vegemite, I think 50 grams would be plenty.  In both cases, it would probably be a good idea to add 1/2 tsp of dry instant yeast.  

On the other hand, it's good to leave the Vegemite quantity as it is, because it is always better to spread it on the bread, fresh or as a toast, wouldn't you say!

 

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

I had just read your comments again.  You asked if the Vegemite make a positive contribution.  Yes, a big yes.  The flavour is good.  I won't do it again any time soon only because, unless it's plain white or wholemeal, there are just too many new variations for sourdoughs to try.

AnnaInNC's picture
AnnaInNC

from the taste description on Wikipedia, it sounds like our liquid Maggi for gravies, I might give that a try in my next bread, love a stronger tasting crumb.

Thank you !

Ignoramus in Maryland

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

You're not an igmoramus at all, AnnaInMD - Vegemite is a national icon in Oz, but like Aussie Rules football, has never achieved much of a foothold outside these shores. It's nothing like "liquid Maggi for gravies", though! The English product Marmite may be more readily available in your part of the world. It's close to Vegemite, but as any Vegemite devotee will affirm, is nowhere near as good! OTOH, most people other than Aussies hate it! Perhaps it's an acquired taste. Also, if you do happen to come across a jar, spread with caution! Toast, plenty of butter and an even smear of Vegemite covering the spreadable area is the optimum.

OR, thinly spread Vegemite with cheese in a sandwich...

OR...and this is a new one on me, but I trust Shiao-Ping implicitly...in sourdough!

Cheers!
Ross

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

now I shall designate you as Aussie Vegemite expert. 

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

... how you go with using the genuine Vegemite in sourdough!

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

I will indeed, Shiao-Ping. In fact, I'm planning to make a pain au levain tonight, so I'll add some Vegemite original to it and report back after baking and sampling tomorrow! You do realise you've started something here, don't you? Lawd knows where it might end!

Cheers
Ross

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

Did they say that all traditions start by being inventions?

AnnaInNC's picture
AnnaInNC

thank you, Ross, I shall search in the deli sections of our rural Southern Maryland stores.

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

You never know, AnnaInMD - maybe the Maggi could be a worthy addition in itself!?

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

I have no doubt that Maggie can be a worthy addition (the other extreme of having just 4 simple ingredients - flour, water, salt, and yeast, and just let the flavour of flour "shine" through the fermentation process).

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

As threatened, reporting back on my Vegemite-infused pane du levain, which I baked today and just sampled. I couldn't specifically taste the Vegemite (only added 7gm, and will up that to 10gm next time...call me conservative and I won't like it, but will grudgingly answer). However, what a lovely bread! This is the best pain du levain I've baked to date (Dan Lepard's recipe). Unsure how much the Vegemite contributed, but something worked very well.

Not the lovely open crumb your breads feature, Shiao-Ping, but a very even, quite tight one with a nice elastic texture about it - really pleased. Will upload some pics if I get around to taking any.

Cheers!

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

He would be pleased to know about it too, I am sure.  I wonder what would happen if you up the quantity to 25 grams!   I wonder to what point will the little beasties be drowned.  Perhaps it's like sugar - up to 4 - 5% of flour, it is a positive, beyond that, it is more dicey. 

Would love to see a photo if you get a chance.

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Not as adept with the camera as you, and let's face it...the appearance of my loaves are always on the rustic side. But here goes:

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

flavourful loaf, good on its own and as a sandwich.  I can just feel that the crumb is very tasty.  But as you said,  there is only 7 grams of Vegemite in the whole loaf and therefore the Vegemite taste is not coming through; better this way, because, if you can taste the Vegemite in the crumb, maybe the pain au levain wouldn't have worked.   I reckon it's best to spread the Vegemite on a slice anyway.

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

Benjamin used Hamelman's Pain au Levain formula from Bread (page 158) for his Marmite sourdough with very good result: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/13838/inspired-shiaoping .  You might want to check it out.  I'd like to try it myself.  Cheers, Shiao-Ping

 

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Yes, I had seen Benjamin's marmite thread - but thanks for the alert. To be honest, I have arrived at the conclusion you expressed a couple of posts ago: that is, I'm content to just spread Vegemite on the bread, rather than attempting to infuse the dough with that sort of flavour.

Baked your/Dan Lepard's barm bread yesterday - now that's a nice loaf! With your 50/50 bread, and Hammelman's classic Norwich sourdough, my favourite to date.

Cheers!
Ross

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

It's interesting that you mentioned Hamelman.  I don't like to sound pedantic and quote somebody but recently I read something that he said and it moved me:

It is my hope that every baker will learn the subtle art of fermentation - the truest skill of the baker - before exploring bread formulas whose ingredients mask the taste of fermented flour.  (page 145 of his Bread)

I used to like to incorporate a lot of fancy ingredients into my bread (I still do), but these days I am happier with just the basic.  Recently I have become very fond of his Pain au Levain (page 158).

If you like Vermont Sourdough and my sourdough 50/50, that tells me that you are not a fan of very sour sourdough.  I am the same.

I have never made Vermont Sourdough but I imagine it would be even milder in acidity than Pain au Levain as the liquid levain it uses is like a sponge.

Spreading Vegemite on a slice of this Vermont Sourdough seems like a fine idea to me!

Cheers big ears!

Shiao-Ping

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Well now, Shiao-Ping, do I take it we've reached a new degree of familiarity? :) I've been called worse, I have to admit!

You're right, I don't have any particular preference for sour sourdough breads, but I don't dislike them, either.

My bread appreciation actually began during a year I spent in Germany as a callow youth way back in the 80s. I couldn't believe how good the bread was there. I'd never tasted quality bread like that before...and the variety!

I've been in quest of great bread ever since, mostly in vain until relatively recently, when I stumbled on to home baked sourdough via an obsession with baking my own pizzas. As someone on another forum wittily remarked, pizza is the gateway drug to sourdough!

I must say, the home-baked sourdoughs I've been turning out have been close in flavour to the wonderful breads I encountered in Germany (and my expertise - if you call it that, which would be kind - is nowhere near yours or some other obviously excellent bakers on this and other forums). Once you're on to home baked sourdough, there's no turning back!

I don't have Hamelman's book yet - it's on its way from Amazon. I look very forward to receiving it and turning straight to page 158 as per your recommendation! Thanks for that!

Cheers
Ross

 

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

His book is a gem, full of interesting anecdotal stories, but that's not why his book is a gem; it is because there is a very detailed write-up about techniques and ingredients (ie, Part One).  Also, I find the discussion preceding each chapter of formulas (in Part Two) more important than the actual formulas.  Page 158 contains the formula for Pain au Levain but before the formula, from Pages 144 to 153 is a discussion on Levain Breads in general, which I think is invaluable.

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

...now you've really got BigEars straining at his leash in restless anticipation of the delivery from Amazon!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Shiao-Ping, have you ever heard of maggi kraut?  It's an herb that's green, tastes like Maggi seasoning and grows to a meter high easily.  It looks like a cross between celery and italian parsley on hormones! Maybe fresh it has the flavor but not the dead yeast cells of yeast extract (Vegemite). 

I have to wonder about the problems you had with the yeast rising.... do you think the yeasts got some kind of chemical "warning" from the yeast by-products and thought they should save their energy?  Maybe even sending some yeasts into dormancy?  Sort of a wild far fetched idea, but....  Or the pH was too acid? 

Maggi kraut could be chopped up in a blender with water or run through a sieve, the water being used directly in the bread.  Guaranteed green!  The herb is used fresh dried and frozen,  many times thrown into soup and removed thus extracting the flavor.  I don't know if I can find some now this close to winter.  You're giving me ideas...

Latin name is  Levisticum Officinale.    Also known as (G) Liebstöckel or Maggikraut  also called (E) Lovage, (F) livèche, (I) levistico, maggi

Mini

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

Hi Mini oven, You got me working - I searched on the net and this came up from a RecipeZaar page:

please compare our german"Maggi Würze" with your "Coca Cola"...

The recipte is very, very secret. icon_wink.gif

Whenever you used dark soy-sauce with a little bit salt and a plant, which in Germany is known as "Maggi-Kraut", you reach the same taste

Actually it wasn't so much a problem about "yeast rising" in this sourdough; the bread was reasonably open (see the crumb shots in the post).  But I see what you're trying to get at - it's very hard for me to know what inhibits the yeast (in the starter) performance.  I am (as I write) baking a sourdough bread with black sesame oil and black sesame meals (ie, sesame seeds ground into powder) and it looks pretty dead - it just doesn't rise at all.