The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

getting to grips with a proofing basket

Jw's picture
Jw

getting to grips with a proofing basket

as mentioned, I got a basket from the sfbs. It took a few weeks before I could try it out, TFL is a good resource for tips. The first attempt is actually a slow bread, it looked promising. The pattern is not that good. The other breads are all SF sourdough.



Here (below) I tried scoring the bread, but I guess it was not deep enough (or too late in the rise).



Here the scoring has improved, slowly getting there. I should have noted the rising times... too much flower as well.



Getting closer where I want to be. The wooden shoe (size US12/EU46) is there to get an impression of the size of the breads. I am happy with the crumb! I will go back to new recipes, when I 'perfected' this form.




Expectations about the taste have even been higher, when my 'customers' (friends and family) see the new form. I can definitely recommend getting a basket like this (and I will get the oval shape at a later point in time).

Happy baking!

Cheers,
Jw.

Comments

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Nice breads Yummy, can't see any basket though..

Jw's picture
Jw

http://www.sfbi.com/graphics/catalog/wickerr.gif

This is the basket I used... Cheers, Jw.

avatrx1's picture
avatrx1

When one uses a basket for proofing how exactly does that work?  I've proofed breads in a basket but by the time I move them from the basket to the stone - they flatten out.  I can never get that lovely basket impression on them.

I agree with you on the crumb on the last one.  That's what I typically get in my breads, but I never can get both that and the basket impression.

Susie

 

Jw's picture
Jw

Susie, this is my (amateur) opinion: when they flatten out, you have proofed too long. Try shortening the proofing by 30 minutes (this does assume your mixture is otherwise ok).

I use flour (very white) mixed with rice flour. I fill the basket rings with in, not too flour. The dough has to be a bit moist as well. I'll try and make some pictures.

Cheers,
Jw.

paulav's picture
paulav

Great documentation of your progress- it has inspired me to get out the basket and give another try!  Your catalog link for the basket is broken- would you please post it again?  Thanks, Paulav

Jw's picture
Jw

Paulav, that link would be here : http://www.sfbi.com/baking_supplies.html
Go down a bit on the page.

Do give it another try!

Cheers,
Jw.

paulav's picture
paulav

Jw,  thanks for the link- great website and the prices are reasonable too!  I've got shopping to do...

rayel's picture
rayel

and lovely crumb. I like everything about your breads, crust, color, the whole works. What kind of flour did you use for dusting baskets? Inspiring. Ray

Jw's picture
Jw

Ray, I used rice flour mixed with 'standard white'. 50-50. It is kind of an art to make the flour 'stick' (I don't use oil or water, just turn the bowl a few times and use a brush to get it a the right places.).

Thanks for the compliment.

Cheers,
Jw.

summerbaker's picture
summerbaker

Nice looking!  A few days ago I ordered my first brotforms (2 round and 2 oval from brotforms.com) and can't wait for them to get here.  Hopefully my loaves will come out as nicely as yours.

Thanks for the warning about using too much flour; I tend to go a bit heavy with it because I'm always afraid that my dough is going to stick to the couche.

Summer

avatrx1's picture
avatrx1

Are you recommending that you leave out some of the flour and all of the salt til the next day and that's what made your bread so good?

I'm relatively new to this and learning new terms and techniques all the time.  I"m always looking for tried and true recipes and I do tend to measure stuff by grams for accuracy.

as a follow up to my previous question - in order to get the nice impression from a basket on your bread - do you initially have to push the dough into the basket before letting it rise and then flipping it out wrong side up to bake?

I don't have one of these baskets, but I have a really nice seagrass basket that I bought in Charleston, SC several years ago and I currently use that as a proofing basket.  Although it does have a ring pattern, I've never seen it on any of my breads.  I put a dish towel in it, coat it with flour, put in the dough, put some flour on that and then folds the ends of the towel over the bread and allow to rise.

Am I on the right track?

-Susie

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

In order to get a pronounced spiral pattern on your loaf, you would need a brotform. This is a coiled willow basket that you rub rice flour into the grooves. You do not need to press the loaf into the basket. Lay it in there gently and let it rise.

Your seagrass basket is essentially an banneton. I have seen some folks obtaining a pattern, one I remember in particular was a colander. I would think you would have to press it in a bit to obtain a pattern. It won't have the definitive pattern of brotfom though.

Betty

Jw's picture
Jw

ASusie, are you familiar with multistage breads? I believe overnight starter (or biga) increases the taste, but taste is a personal thing. I add salt only the last stage.

I don't push the dough into the basket, just let it rise in there in the final stage. Then I will take a over 'plate', but it on top of the basket and flip them together. It gave me better results then flipping just about the plate. I'll post some pictures later this evening..

I don't know anything about the seagress baskets, I got mine at www.sfbi.com

Cheers,
Jw.

 

CanuckJim's picture
CanuckJim

Susie/Betty,

Far as I know, the round coiled baskets are called banneton and used primarily in France.  In Germany, Scandanavia and Eastern Europe, a rectangular shape is preferred (same materials), and it's called a Brotform.  Both can be brutally expensive.  Check out the SanFrancisco Baking Institute or www.fgpizza.com for about the best prices around.  For the less traditional among us, there are plastic versions that I understand work just fine, though I've never used them, and they're quite a bit cheaper.

Trick with these baskets is not to line them with cloth; otherwise, no pattern.  I doubt a seagrass basket would work this way.  I have one from SC, and I wouldn't dare. The technique I use is to dust the banneton or Brotform with flour from a very fine meshed stainless steel sieve.  You want the coating to be complete (no willow showing) but not thick.  It is not necessary to rub flour into the grooves.  I ordinarily use hard unbleached bread flour for this, but a different crust color and flavor can be gotten by using whole rye flour (save the bran for something else).  The technique definitely takes practice to get right.

The most defined pattern is obtained when the loaves are retarded overnight.  There is no need to push the dough down at all.  The loaves will rise quite slowly in the fridge, and gravity will take care of the pattern.

Unless the coating is uniform, higher hydration formulas and those with additions like olives will stick at places in the baskets, making release difficult.  I use a wooden skewer to free stuck places. Just before turning them out, I always check, very gently, around the perimeter of the loaf that faces up (the bottom, eventually).  That's where most of the sticking seems to happen. Retarded loaves release and slash best when they're still cold from the cooler.

After use, leave the baskets out on the counter so the flour will dry.  Bang out the excess, then use a nylon brush from a buck store to get the rest.  Don't ever wash them or they will be ruined.

CJ

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

Not that it's really important, but I believe bannetons are usually made of wicker and lined with linen that has flour rubbed in to prevent sticking. The word is probably French in origin.

Brotfroms (brotformen, german in origin, I believe) are coiled willow baskets. You do rub the flour into the grooves and the willow does show. I never have a problem with the loaves sticking, even with high hydration or having additives, like cheese. I do not retard my loaves in the brotforms due to the moisture from condensation, which I found to causes sticking. That is just my personal preference.

I have never heard that a rectangular shape is a brotform. Interesting.

Betty

Elagins's picture
Elagins

i'm with you, Paddyscake ... there's a definite difference between bannetons and brotformen.

 

Stan Ginsberg
www.nybakers.com

CanuckJim's picture
CanuckJim

Betty,

I've never seen a wicker banneton, and the word does have a French origin. Some have liners, some do not, but all those I've seen here and in Europe are coiled willow. Lined or unlined, depends on the effect you're after.  I do retard loaves in the baskets, but I've had very little difficulty with sticking using the dusting technique described.

CJ

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

A banneton basket viewed from below.

A banneton is a type of basket used to provide structure for the sourdough breads during proofing. Proofing baskets are distinct from loaf pans in that the bread is normally removed from these baskets before baking. Traditionally these baskets are made out of wicker, but many modern proofing baskets are made out of silicone or plastic. Frequently a banneton will have a cloth liner to prevent dough from sticking to the sides of the basket - though some have no such cloth. These baskets are used both to provide the loaf with shape and to wick moisture from the crust. Banneton baskets are also known as Brotform or proofing baskets. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I've always enjoyed this page of brotformen (plural for brotform)  Note the mention of pulp baskets for home use as compared to cane.

http://www.bannetons.com/index.php?section=angebot

Get a kick out of the brush.   Use and care also mentioned: 

You can suppress the growth of mold by

  1. regularly cleaning with a hard brush, keeping the layers of dough from growing too thick.
  2. not tucking the damp bannetons together for storage, but put them separately to dry
  3. killing germ and mould, heating the bannetons to 130 deg celsius (260 deg Fahrenheit) for about 45 minutes in the oven (after 4-12 weeks of usage)
  4. If you use the bannetons in a bakery or baking company its best to install an ultraviolet lamp in your fermentation chamber. Put the bannetons on the wagon and into the (heating switched off) chamber overnight. So you can kill germs, mold and vermin (bugs).

If you check out the home page you will see a bread form with grass basket with a wood bottom with emblem carved into it.  I think pine needle baskets would also be an option.

Mini

CanuckJim's picture
CanuckJim

That style is new to me; thanks for the pic.  It's certainly not usable unlined, I would think.  To students without the money to spend on traditional coiled baskets, I always suggest going to the buck store and buying cheap woven baskets of the sort used in restaurants for bread and crackers--the steeper the sides the better.  Lined with washed out linen napkins, they work just as well as the more expensive lined baskets, either coiled or woven.

Still, lined baskets of whatever origin do not impart a pattern, which is a personal preference.

CJ

Jw's picture
Jw

at www.sfbi.com or directly http://www.sfbi.com/baking_supplies.html

I had a fried pick it up, but it seems they mail order as well. I don't get the same result verytime (yet), these pictures were just my first tries. I took the smaller size, and round ones only. Gives me something to look forward too.

Good luck. Cheers, Jw.