The Fresh Loaf

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1:2:2 vs 1:3:4 feeding

aryaya's picture
aryaya

1:2:2 vs 1:3:4 feeding

I am trying to figure out the differences/benefits of these feeding ratios. I see some people just say 'double it' / 1:2:2, while others say to go with a 1:3:4. I was told to do the latter, and thats how I'm feeding my little sourdough starter right now (2 tbs starter, 1/2 cup flour, a little less than 1/2 cup water)... but I'm so curious why some recommend one over the other? What is the difference????

Thanks for any input!!

Stephanie Brim's picture
Stephanie Brim

My normal feeding routine of my mother starter is 1T starter, 1T water, and 2T flour. This gives me enough starter to build up a levain for breads, yet it doesn't use so much flour that I'm buying 5 pounds per week just to feed it. My building technique goes a bit more in depth, going by weight.

I buy 5 pounds per week because I make that much bread now. :D

karladiane's picture
karladiane

Hi there:

I think that the main things to keep in mind for feeding protocols are:  What fits your schedule, and how do you use your starter (both how often and for what kinds of breads). 

These items can only be answered over time, with experimentation.  I feed my 2 starters once a week (one rye, one wheat), and I like them a little on the wetter side, just because of my baking preferences.  That way, I can use them as seed for both dry and wet starters when I bake.

Just remember, a sourdough is a living population of organisms, and as long as they get food, water & air, on a regular basis, they'll be fine.  Beware of advice that is rigid & iron-clad!  Personally, I love the fact that I have grown to have a "feel" for my cultures and baking.  It has made my bread-baking learning adventure so rewarding.

Try them all and see what you like - and have fun.

peace,

KDP

gaaarp's picture
gaaarp

Not to be OCD, but a 1:2:2 feeding doesn't double your starter.  In order to double, you would feed 2:1:1.  So, for example, if you started with 10 oz of starter and fed 5 oz each of water and flour, you would have 20 oz, or twice what you started with.  A 1:2:2 feeding, starting with 10 oz of starter, would net 50 oz, or 5 times what you started with.

As far as which to use and why, as noted above, it's really a matter of personal preference.  A firmer starter will be able to go longer between feedings, as there is more flour for the yeasty beasties to eat.  But it really comes down to what you want to work with. 

I currently have 4 starters, one at 175% hydration, two at 100%, and one at 65%.  I have been experimenting to see what I like the best.  The 65% hydration starter is easy to work with and mixes in well.  The high-hydration starter is a bit high maintenance for my liking.  It develops hooch after about two days in the refrigerator.

Separate your starter into a few containers and try different hydration levels to find the one you like best.

aryaya's picture
aryaya

ocd appreciated gaaarp haha - that makes sense. So why is it that some sites recommend 2:1:1 and others 1:2:2 ?? I am just trying to understand the technical aspect of this more than anything (curious by nature I guess!). It seems if I just 'double it' then it would run out of food much much quicker??

Are some of the tips out there just picking a ratio thats of no real crutial importance? I ask this because I've even read some places that you start out at the very beginning with 2:1:1 and then switch to 1:3:4 when its mature. Whats the purpose behind this?

I guess I'm trying to see if this is more than just a hydration/preference issue - does it prefer a certain way to stay more 'in balance'?

Thanks for the help :)

Just Loafin's picture
Just Loafin

Hi Aryaya -

Understanding what the numbers mean will help you here.

1:2:2 means "1 part starter, 2 parts flour and 2 parts water. The arguments start when we try to define what a 'part' is. Is it volume or weight? You will find many websites that go one way or the other (and no doubt, they are getting successes both ways), but the end of the argument is that it SHOULD represent weight, and I'll tell you the reasoning. If you need to be able to express your starter with a hydration percentage, you MUST weigh those parts.

The internet folks who promote volume maintenance for their starters all generally agree that baker's percentage formulas base dough hydration on the weight of the liquids against the weight of the flour. Why don't they view their starter the same way, since it's purely water and flour? It doesn't make sense.

Now, is this important, or is this just something we like to rant about? Well, it's important for you to know whether their starter 'formula' (x:x:x) is based on volume or weight, or possible a mixture of both! Make sure you ASK before you assume (which also assumes they didn't clarify with examples). Now, the next important question you have to answer for yourself is very simple: what hydration do YOU want your starter maintained at? That question will directly dictate a certain formula. That formula is usually one way to start, and then might change slightly as you make choices about maintenance and storage.

For purposes of ease of your management and knowledge curve, most recommend a 100% hydration from start to maturity (maturity being defined here as a starter that can definitely hold its own and can take some abuse). A starter that is too wet can be harder to maintain, and can also be more prone to abrubt changes in its acid and/or other environmental levels. One that is too dry takes an expert to know when it needs fed (it can be tricky to guage it's overall strength, too). The one right in the middle, the 100% hydration starter, is just right for the beginning culturalist! The environment is much slower to change, which makes it easy to catch and correct problems, and it also gives very clear visual cues as to what phase (or stage) it's in.

So forget all those other websites... understand the numbers!

Let's leave out the first number, the weight of the starter, and instead concentrate on the actual hydration numbers. Those last two numbers in the formula represent the actual hydration we want to END UP with, and if we want 100% hydration, those numbers need to match exactly. They also need to represent weight (in grams or ounces) instead of volume (teaspoons, tablespoons, etc). If you are familiar with working with baker's formulas, I'm sure you would agree that if you mix 80 grams of flour with 80 grams of water, you would have a dough (or rather, a batter) of 100% hydration. Ok? So forgetting about the first number in the starter formula, we can just simply mix flour and water, and we will have a hydration level.

This whole starter 'formula' in a ratio format is ( I guess...) easier for new sourdough bakers to grasp, but in reality, it would be much easier to get them to understand baker's percentages, and then give them a baker's formula for their starter. Why? Because it's so accurate! You can have a starter at 95%, 115% or 72% hydration easily!

More examples (because eventually a light bulb will go off here...). Let's say we want an 80% hydration starter. Flour is always 100%, so we want the water to be 80% of that. If we want to use 80 grams of flour ( the flour weight is always decided on and provided by YOU), then we can simply apply some math:

80 grams of flour TIMES .8 [80%] = 64 (80 * .8 = 64)

So if we mix 80g of flour with 64g of water, we will have a either a very thick batter or an extremely wet dough, but in the end, it will be 80% hydrated. Want 120% hydrated starter batter? Use 96g of water against the 80g of flour:

80g flour TIMES 1.2 (80 * 1.2 = 96)

Again, the last two numbers of the starter formula commonly used is just setting up the hydration of the finished starter, so realistically, we can just use our normal baker's percentages that we are more comfortable with. They are just two different ways of representing the exact same thing.

Now that we have a batter or dough that will be the food for the beasties, we need beasties! So back to the first number we go...! The first number represents how much OLD starter we want to add to the food supply we built. This is referred to as innoculation. Basically, we are taking our batter/dough and infecting it with some beasties! This process is absolutely no different than adding commercial yeast to an entire recipe. We are, in fact, just raising little loaves of bread every time we feed/maintain a starter! There's no voodoo here at all... it's the same, just on a much smaller scale to be manageable and economical! Ok, so if we isolate the first number, and group the other two numbers, we get this:

The last two numbers together create a hydration percentage, and the flour by itself dictates the amount of FOOD that will be available to our innoculation.

Examples:

Starter ratio of 1:1:1 - Simply, equal amounts (by weight) of old starter, flour, and water. Hydration will be 100% (last two numbers are EQUAL), and we are providing the amount of mature beasties that will typically exhaust this food supply in about 8-12 hours on the counter, depending on temperature.

Starter ratio of 1:2:2 - The last two numbers are EQUAL, therefore we are going to end up with 100% hydration. The flour number is TWICE the first number, so we are providing TWICE the amount of food available for the beasties. This is also commonly referred to as a 'double feeding'. To acheive this formula, and assuming our target flour weight is again 80g, we would provide 40g of mature starter, 80g of flour and 80g of water.

Why would we do a double feeding? Well, some folks might double feed a starter before refrigerating or if they otherwise know they cannot be there for the next regular feeding. You cannot over feed your starter!

Let's connect the dots here. Maintaining a starting is no different than having a dough that is constantly leavening. The flour weight is the central number that we need to know. Once we know that, the last number indicates how much water to use to acheive a particualr hydration. The first number relates to the flour in a way that defines how much food will be available, and how 'saturated' our innoculation will be with mature beasties.

Mastering this formula is not mandatory for maintaining your starter. Where it will come in handy is when you start playing with different hydration percentages to satisfy a recipe, or doing complicated multiple build preferments.

For a person new to building and maintaining a starter, I'm going to highly suggest you use a 1:1:1 ratio and stick to it. Over the course of a month or more, you will become an expert on the look, feel, and behavior of a 100% hydration starter. Using this as your base of experience, you can then branch out and experiment with other hydrations and feel confident when you are faced with a recipe that calls for something new.

After a feeding, a 100% hydration starter will have very easy to see visual indicators as it moves through different phases. It will first bubble a bit (fairly large bubbles). Then after about an hour, it will start producing a tremendous amount of much smaller bubbles. The top will begin to swirl, almost like looking at a radar image of a hurricane. The top will form a dome that arches upwards, and it will start climbing the container as the volume increases. Once it reaches its peak, or 'break point', the dome will invert (begin pointing down) and the mixture will begin receding back down. If you stir it at this exact peak, the mixture will have a definite elastic batter feel to it. If you wait until it goes all the way back down, it will be very liquid and offer little resistance to your whisk. Becoming an expert at recognizing these phases and how long each one takes to transition to the next (based on the temperature you commonly keep it at) will build you a great deal of confidence. Not only will you know how to use your starter per a recipe's instructions, but you will also know when your starter isn't behaving correctly. If you need help or have questions, you will be able to adequately describe what phase you're questioning. The list of pros goes on and on here...

You will eventually find a formula that you are most comfortable with to store your starter (whether on the counter or in the fridge). This might be 100% hydration or something different. This stored starter is also commonly referred to as the 'mother'. If a recipe calls for a different hydration of starter, we simply use a small portion of our mother and add it to a new hydration. We feed the mother as per HER typical stored hydration, and put her back in storage. We then start maintaining the new starter specific to our needs. After 2 or 3 regular feedings of 1:1:whatever for the new hydration, you will be very close, if not exactly on the mark you need to be at, and can proceed with your recipe.

Here's how I maintained my starter at first. I used a 4 cup pyrex measuring cup, because it was sturdy, glass (metal isn't good for maintaining starter, and I'm not a big fan of plastic), and had a nice wide open top. When I needed to feed, I poured about 100g into a different measuring cup and set it aside. I then completely rinsed out the pyrex container (I didn't wash with soap, just rinsed and then lightly dried with a paper towel). I put the pyrex container on the scale, then zeroed the scale. I added 80g of cool tap water. I then added 80g of the set aside starter. Using a small whisk, I briskly whisked the water and old starter until it developed a frothy top and was well combined (whipping air into the mixture promotes growth and balance). 80g of quality flour (I used King Arthur All purpose) was weighed out and added to the pyrex container. Again, the small whisk was used to combine well. This batter is fairly thick and resistant, so a bit of muscle was used. A bowl scraper was used to quickly scrape the excess from the sides and dropped into the middle. Plastic wrap was loosely draped over the top (surgical cleanliness not needed.. just keeping out dust, dirt, cat paws, etc...). Done until next feeding. I did this for about 2 months until I transferred to a mason-type container for the fridge.

If all of this is a bit much, just try the schedule I outlined above, and then re-read this a time or two over the next few weeks. It will all sink in, and good luck!

- Keith

jj1109's picture
jj1109

great post Keith!

I've always called my old starter an innoculum, as opposed to an innoculation. Each to their own :)

Just Loafin's picture
Just Loafin

Looks like we could both use a spell checker! According to dictionary.com, it is inoculum and inoculation.

I used the word twice, and I believe my usage was correct:

>The first number represents how much OLD starter we want to add to the food supply we built. This is referred to as innoculation.

dictionary.com:

2. The introduction of a microorganism or an agent of disease into an host organism or a growth medium.

>The first number relates to the flour in a way that defines how much food will be available, and how 'saturated' our innoculation will be with mature beasties.

dictionary.com

2. an instance of inoculating.

Inoculum refers to the actual substance being used in the inoculation, and is also interchangeable with the term inoculate.

- Keith

 

gaaarp's picture
gaaarp

Keith's explanation is very thorough and way more than I ever could have put together, but I do feel compelled to point out one small error:  in the ratio, x:y:z, x is the starter, y is the water, and z is the flour (water before flour).  Not a big deal, but it's often confused.

avatrx1's picture
avatrx1

I was trying to come up with a certain hydration rate for a recipe that I've found, but couldn't remember which came first.

I used 1 part starter to 3 parts flour and 4 parts water.  I think I got my numbers backward since this starter is so much looser than my 100% starter.  I was trying to achieve a drier starter.

Is there a good way to fix this or should I take some of my 100% and try again?

I don't recall what the hydration rate was in the recipe.  I only know the poster said they used 1:3:4.

is it always water before flour?

 

-Susie

Janknitz's picture
Janknitz

If I want to repalce a portion of regular flour and water in a formula with my 100% starter--say 40 grams of starter--I would replace 20 grams of flour and 20 ml of water?

Thanks for all the great info here!

aryaya's picture
aryaya

That was just about all the information one could hope for! Thank you! I was able to sit down finally tonight and read through it all and comprehend it haha. I wanted to reply as soon as I could though so you didn't think I ran off! The hydration thing makes perfect sense.

Now out of beginners curiousity once again, why do people choose to feed it once to twice daily instead of doubling or tripling it and feeding it say, once a day or every other day, or just sticking it in the fridge with a big feeding? I'd assume that it keeps them more vibrant I guess? But it'd sure be nice to maintain something a little less often, unless it does cut down on the quality... I read somewhere that a mild bread is made from old starter and a quick rise, and a sour bread from an actively fed starter and long rise, so I suppose thats what it is... ?

Cqueve2's picture
Cqueve2

I read the comments and the lightbulb is not coming on. I still don’t get how to calculate the hydration. Not sure if anyone is still on the forum but I could use the help. 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Total water / total flour X 100

Cqueve2's picture
Cqueve2

Thank you for replying. I didn’t think anyone would reply. If I may ask a question or three for clarification. Does the percentage hydration in the bread recipe have to be the same as the percentage hydration in my starter? My starter is 100% hydration 100mg starter 100mg flour 100 flour. I understand how to use the calculator to figure out the hydration of a recipe and I know the hydration of my current starter but I don’t understand how to adjust the starter if the recipe is for a different hydration. Also the formula you have is to determine the hydration of the bread recipe or my starter? Off topic I also don’t understand if I have to make a levain first or if I can just pour directly from my starter into the recipe. Basically, I need help. I have a beautiful bubbly starter that passed the float test but don’t know what recipe to use and if I need to adjust for hydration or if I just add the starter and hope for the best. 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)
  1. No. Your starter does not have to be the same hydration as the final dough. And neither does the levain if incorporating one. In order to work out the final hydration just add up all the water and flour then use the formula. 
  2. The formula is to determine the hydration of flour + water be it starter, levain or final dough. 
  3. As a rule if using recently refreshed starter and it's built to the same hydration as the levain then by all means use the starter as long as you have enough. If you only keep a small amount of starter or it's been in the fridge for a while then good idea to build a levain. This enables you to keep a small amount of starter at any one time. Or if you have had your starter sitting around it's going to be over fermented and the flavour will be off. So using a large amount (as in a levain) will produce poor results. 
  4. If you're only using a very small amount of starter don't sweat it. Not going to make much of a difference. In larger amounts then factor it in. 

Hope this helps. If you need anything clarifying or you have a sample recipe you'd like to ask any questions about then just ask. 

Cqueve2's picture
Cqueve2

Yes this definitely helps. My starter is 300mg total so I have enough to not need a levain if I don’t have to. Why would I ever need to change the hydration of my starter to work with a recipe or is that what a levain is for? So the point of calculating the hydration is to determine how the bread is going to turn out? I wanted larger wholes rather then small. The recipe I was looking to use to make my first loaf of bread states: 250mg water150 grams starter 25 mg olive oil. 500mg bread flour and 10 grams salt. So if I add all the flour it’s 600mg flour/ 375mg water/ oil X 100? Is that correct? And the total would give me the hydration? And then what? 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

 

  • 500g flour 
  • 250g water 
  • 10g salt 
  • 25g olive oil 
  • 150g starter

Technically the olive oil is not part of the hydration but it will affect to how the dough feels and handles so some do add it. In this case I won't to make it easier but when I work out my own recipes I do. This is just to show you flour plus water and how your starter comes into it. I also wish to say that if your starter has not been recently refreshed it's a good idea to refresh it or build a levain. It is often better to keep a small amount of starter at any one time and build levains. Should your starter be 300g and not recently refreshed then you'll need to discard a lot whereas keeping a small amount does away with discard. When a recipe doesn't specify the hydration of a starter it's usually taken as 100% hydration. And you are correct, sometimes a levain can also built to a different hydration in which case you might wish to build one. And we're back to why keeping so much at any one time isn't always the best way. But back to hydration. 

  • Starter is 150g (not mg) which will be 75g water + 75g flour 
  • Total water in the recipe is 250g + 75g = 325g
  • Total flour in the recipe is 500g + 75g = 575g
  • Hydration is 325g / 575g X 100 = 56.5%

Which is quite low! If we add in the olive oil then it will come out to 60.8% (atleast according to how it feels and behaves) which will be in the normal range.

Cqueve2's picture
Cqueve2

So whatever the amount of starter is in the recipe I just divide that in half to determine water and flour if it doesn’t specify the hydration? Also I don’t include the water and flour of my starter then. Thats where I was getting confused. I thought it was total of flour and water in both my starter and the recipe and that didn’t make sense to me. Omg, I meant grams lol my mistake. My starter just passed the float test yesterday and I haven’t been able to actually make bread because of my work schedule so I have been just feeding it and saving the discard for other things until Wednesday night when I prepare the starter to be ready to make bread Thursday morning.  My starter was just refreshed today at 6pm est. After this first loaf on Thursday I plan to put it in the fridge and just feed it once a week and bake once a week or so. I don’t mind keeping the extra discard, I make biscuits and pancakes with it amongst other things. So for future if my starter has not been refreshed recently since it will be in the fridge and I want to make Bread, would it then be better to take some and start a levain. If so I have no idea how to calculate the ratio to use for a recipe with a hydration different then 100%. As in I have no idea how much starter to use vs water vs flour if I needed the hydration to be different then 100%. 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Is equal flour and water so yes you divide by half. When a recipe doesn't specify it's usually accepted as 100% hydration. Then just work out total flour and water plus the starter to get the hydration of the final dough. 

When a recipe calls for however much starter just make sure it's been recently fed. I suggest a feed of no less than 1:2:2 and used when mature. It can be stored in the fridge and used within two to three days. Any longer then I suggest another refreshment and use the discard to make other things or just take a little off and build up to however much the recipe calls for. So many ways to get to the same point as long as you make sure you aren't using a large amount of starter that hasn't been recently refreshed. Now if a recipe calls for a small amount of starter, e.g. 20g starter to 500g flour for a long ferment, then you don't have to worry. You're just making sure that you aren't using a lot of over fermented starter which will make for a poor final loaf. 

If a recipe calls for a levain it will advise how to build it. If the levain ends up being 100% hydration too and you have recently fed your starter and it's good to go then fine. If not then follow the instructions of the levain build. 

I find it much easier to keep 80-100g starter in the fridge and build levains. When my starter runs low I feed it back to 80-100g then when mature it goes back into the fridge. No discard.

Cqueve2's picture
Cqueve2

Okay yeah I will keep that in mind because I do discard quite a bit. The recipe that I used to make my starter made it on the larger size. So to reduce to the 1:2:2 ratio so I wouldn’t have to feed it everyday and have less starter I would then lower the measurements to what in order to make it smaller? That’s the other part I don’t understand. I have no idea how to change the ratio of the starter/flour/water to make it smaller but still 100% hydration. My starter is extremely active so right now it needs to be fed twice a day. I heard I can change the ratio to lessen the starter to slow it down a little but still keep it at 100% hydration. If you could explain how I calculate those ratios. Also once I get the hydration of the recipe is there something I’m supposed to do with that information? Like the one you calculate for me just now. It’s 60ish percent hydration. Or is that just for me to know how tight the inside will be and how the crust will turn out? Also is a 1:1:1 ratio good to keep my starter at through maturity or should I be changing the hydration at that point. 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

If your starter is super active then time to start thinking about storing it in the fridge. However if you wish to keep in feeding it till your first bake you can change to a larger feed all the while keeping it 100% hydration. 

Find yourself a small jar. Then try a feed of...

  • 10g starter 
  • 50g water 
  • 50g flour 

1:5:5 and still 100% hydration. This should allow you to feed it less often on a 12 hourly schedule. Now if I were you when you're ready to bake about a day before feed it one last time as above and allow it to double then refrigerate. It'll last a week or two in the fridge. Because it's young you might wish to feed it on a weekly basis even if it hasn't run low. 

The night before baking take a little off and build a levain. A nice build for an all night levain is also 1:5:5 so for 150g try...

  • 14g starter 
  • 70g water 
  • 70g flour 

Total = 154g 

The next day when it's bubbly and active use it for the recipe. 

When your starter in the fridge gets low, take it out, feed it, allow it to activate, bubble up and double then back into the fridge. And as we said before for now do this on a weekly basis even if it hasn't run low. 

Store discard in the fridge as back up. If all goes well use up discard in other recipes. And before long you won't have any discard. The starter in the recipe (or the levain which is how you'll build it) will always be fresh and active and you never need keep too much starter. Basically you are treating your starter as seed and introducing a levain build which is an off shoot starter. It also allows you to build any type of levain to any specification should a recipe ask for one. 

When you're following a recipe a lot of these things are worked out for you. Knowing hydration is good for designing your own recipes when aiming for a result. Plus it a lot to do with how the dough feels so recipes are guides and you might find the dough needs a bit more water. Or less (although at 60% hydration I can't imagine that). That's why not adding all the water at once is good and keeping a little back adding it slowly is always a good idea. For now follow recipes. Only through practice will this come more naturally. 

Cqueve2's picture
Cqueve2

It is definitely active so it’s ready to be put in the fridge. So just to make sure I understand. I’m going to lower my starter to 1:5:5 ratio =10g starter 50g flour 50g water. I will feed it once daily until I’m ready to bake for Thursday. I then will pull out some starter Wednesday night and make a separate levain of 14g 70g and 70g then put the remaining starter in the fridge. That levain will sit overnight till it doubles in size and is ready Thursday morning. I only have to refresh the starter once a week. I will save the discard just incase I screw it up lol. When it’s the in the fridge can I refresh it cold if I’m not baking with it? If I am planning to bake with it then do I refresh it cold and then leave it out to rise or do I let it sit to take the chill off and feed it after. 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

I think try two more feeds of 1:5:5. It should peak in 12 hours. Tonight try the first feed and see how it reacts. Come morning, about 12 hours later, if it's active, bubbly and peaked then go onto the second feed. Keep and eye on it and when it's doubled refrigerate. This will be your seed starter. 

Wednesday night just dip into the starter and take off 14g to build the levain which should be ready by Thursday morning. 

The rest as you say. You have the right idea. For now feed your starter once a week. Eventually you can wait till it runs low. Otherwise it stays in the fridge for up to two weeks. Others leave it longer and you'll get to know your starter and how long you can leave it in the fridge for. Always save discard as back up until you see your starter is doing well after being fed and then use up the discard in another recipe. 

Since when you build a levain or topping up the starter when it runs low you are starting off with a small amount then no need to worry. By the time it's been fed it's warmed up and all you need to do is wait till it's mature even if it needs a bit longer which I doubt. 

Cqueve2's picture
Cqueve2

Thank you so much for answering all of my questions! You are awesome. I feel ready to bake my first loaf. If you don’t mind me asking. How did you acquire all of your bread knowledge? Professional baker? Or just experience? Also I would like to keep in touch if that’s okay. Since I have started this bread making journey I really don’t have anyone to ask. I would like to keep you updated on how it goes. My email is c.quevedo101319@gmail.com if you email me I will send you a pic of my first loaf :). 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

I'm learning everyday. I owe a lot to this website and my friends here. A place to ask questions and come for guidance. The rest is purely practical. There's nothing like trying and learning from mistakes (which everyone will go through). It's not always going to be plain sailing and you'll be eating through many less than perfect sourdough loaves but with practice it'll become second nature. When first starting off it sounds very daunting as most of it is just theory for now. Using your starter is the only way to learn. 

I'll send you an email. I've copied it down and you can remove it from a public comment now if you wish.