February 27, 2021 - 1:06pm
Tartine, Robertson and his flours
I'm finally plucking up courage (!) to try some of the Tartine recipes.
I want to do it by the book - but am just a little put off by Robertson's descriptions of the flours to use… 'high extraction', 'medium strong' etc.
I'm used to KAF and Bob's Red Mill etc.
Are those too generic?
How/where would I find the right kind of flours for the Tartine recipes, please?
TIA!
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Welcome to TFL.
For Tartine and other breads I use King Arthur flour for the all-purpose, bread, and whole wheat, and I use Bob's Red Mill for the whole rye flour.
Awhile back I posted some blogs about a couple of the Tartine breads with the hope that a step-by-step description and some photos might be helpful for those (perhaps you) who want to see what baking one of these recipes might involve. Here are links to the two postings:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64305/tartine-basic-country-bread
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/63397/country-rye-tartine
Be sure to ask questions if you have any uncertainties. Happy baking.
Ted
Ted, thanks so much for these excellent photo tutorials! They help so much for beginners like me who are self taught with only the help of books and the internet. Thank you!
I've been using FWSY recipes, and just posted a question to this forum about what to look for in the final cold proof. Sometimes my loaves look like they don't expand much in the fridge, and I'm concerned about underproofing. Any guidance on how best to use cold proofing? Do folks sometimes let shaped loaves sit on counter a bit before putting in fridge, or after removing? I prefer the dough cold b/c it scores so much more easily for me. But my priority is good crumb and rise, over fancy scoring, so appreciate any guidance.
Thank you!
There aren’t any good tests to check for degree of proof after a cold retard in the fridge. The finger poke test is not accurate for cold dough.
Especially when you’re new, it is easier to shape the dough earlier than later into bulk and then leave the dough out at room temperature or in your proofing box to start final proof before placing it in your fridge.
If you’re interested in having a tool to help you with determining when to stop bulk and shape and also when to start cold retard after a bit of final proof warm, have a look at this Using an aliquot jar. I will typically end bulk and shape when the aliquot jar has hit 60% rise. Then allow a further rise on the counter or my proofing box until the aliquot jar has risen to 70-90% (I’ve just recently been pushing it further to 90% and love the results) and then place the shaped dough in the fridge overnight. Then the next day bake cold out of the fridge, after scoring of course.
My baking greatly improved by using the aliquot jar which is why I went to the trouble of posting that thread and also making the video. By using the aliquot jar and keeping good notes, you can adjust your baking from bake to bake to improve. You will also start to learn what to watch out for to know when your dough is nicely fermented and be able to use your senses of touch, sight and smell to know when to end bulk,.
Benny
Thanks Benny,
It's helpful to think in terms of the total expansion of the dough over the course of all the proof. I have cambro tubs so I had thought they would be sufficient to judge the expansion. But i'm learning that perhaps they are just too large and the aliquot jar would prob provide me with some help data to judge the expansion and timing, as I'm learning to read my dough better. You've convinced me, I'll add it to the process.
And yes, I started just instinctively letting my dough proof a bit. before final cold proof, and thought I got better results. Having the alqiuot jar would prob help gage what percent of total rise the dough is at, yes?
And you know, I've been reading Daniel Leader's books which definitely suggest adding "taste" to the sense used to judge the bulk. So much to learn!
Thank you!
You’re welcome Laura. Yes I’ve recently found the aliquot jar helpful beyond just bulk fermentation, it can help guide when to start cold retard after shaping, something that your Cambro cannot do.
Yes taste, I’ll taste my starter now and again, but I haven’t made an effort to taste my fermented dough. I know of bakers who successfully make decisions based solely on pH. pH to decide when your starter or levain is ready, pH to know when your dough has completed bulk fermentation. I do measure pH at times, but haven’t used it to make decisions on ending bulk fermentation.
Benny
Benny, I saw your picture of a small premarked jar in another post. What do you use for that? I have a sterile ahem *medical* jar with marks, but it appears to ever so slighly slant at top.
I do use specimen containers, they have straight sides are and food safe. Another option is a glass spice jar. You want parallel sides, and pretty narrow to give you the most accurate measurement of rise.
Benny
My cambro are plastic, would it matter to have a glass spice jar in terms of accuracy? I will check my local pharm for small straight sided bottles as well. And I do have pH strips, but wouldn't know how to read the levain/dough with them?
No I don’t see an issue with glass and plastic, my jars are plastic my main dough is in a glass Pyrex dish. This flattish Pyrex dish is one of the reasons I needed to have a tool to measure rise since it is near impossible to measure that with this dish since when the dough starts out it doesn’t even reach the sides. Just keep the aliquot jar with the main dough at all times to keep their conditions the same as much as possible. Because the aliquot jar is small, it will experience greater fluctuations in temperature than the main dough. I now keep the aliquot jar in the Pyrex dish with the dough, only taking it out when folding the dough. That would be hard to do with your cambro, but keep them side by side at all times and that would be fine as well. Just remember as I have stated in that other thread, that because the aliquot jar dough isn’t folded, it is overestimating the rise of the main dough. So for those who have cambros, I think most would say a 30-50% rise before shaping. But that is a bit low for the aliquot jar. If I was more skilled, I’d let the dough rise until the aliquot jar showed 70-80% rise before shaping. But the times when I’ve tried shaping at that degree of rise, I didn’t do a great job. So this is why for now I’ve settled on shaping at 60% rise and then allowing a much further rise to 80-90% before cold retard. I may experiment with 100% rise if I can ensure that my dough is really strong so it can handle that degree of proofing.
Oh I didn’t mention, as I’ve pushed fermentation further, my dough can contract a bit in the fridge which I keep at 3-4ºC which I totally don’t worry about. At first I worried that I’d overproofed my dough because of this, but hasn’t been the case. If you look at my most recent bake in my blog, it can noticeably contracted in the banneton when I took it out of the fridge, but it still had a good bloom and oven spring.
Benny
Great info here, esp on the aliquot raising faster than the dough that gets degassed with SNF. I don't know about your blog, I'll try to track it down! I was pretty casual about sourdough early on b/c my fam enjoys pretty much anything with European butter on it lol. But I've been wanting to share bread with others, so decided I needed to fine tune process. Falling down the rabbit hole for sure lol Thank you!
Thanks, Ted! Very helpful.
I'm familiar with both KAF's and BRM's ranges.
idaveindy's post also makes the equivalences clear.
Mark, in the text of the two Tartine bread books, at least page 24 of Tartine Book No. 3...
• "medium strong wheat flour" would be matched by KAF all-purpose at 11.7% protein.
• hence "strong wheat flour" would be KAF bread flour at 12.7%
• "high extraction" is approximated by a 50/50 mix of medium strong and WW.
In "Tartine Bread" (his first bread book), the flour description is on page 70. It recommends all-purpose flour, but does not get more specific.
My two cents:
• KAF's regular WW is from red wheat. KAF also makes a WW from white wheat. As far as I know, both are roller-milled.
• BRM has an excellent stone ground WW (from red wheat). I have been using this when I am too lazy to mill my own. $3.75 for 5 pounds at Big Lots.
• If you can't find KAF white WW near you, Trader Joe and Kroger have house brands of WW from white wheat. I've used both. They look roller-milled.
• 50/50 mix of white rice flour and AP (or bread) flour is ideal for dusting the banneton or banneton liner. White rice flour is about $1 per pound at Indian and Asian grocery stores. Using all wheat flour will cause it to brown. Using all rice flour gives it a weird taste and texture. Using brown rice flour causes it to brown.
Bon appétit, amigo.
Thanks so much, @idaveindy!
Very helpful indeed. I've made myself table of those.
I guess the only way to find out for sure is to experiment and adjust.
Just to be 100% sure, 'WW' does = 'Whole Wheat', Yes?
Those tips on Banneton lining are really helpful too, thanks!
Appreciated :-)
Btw, how many pounds of flour per week do you think you'll be using?
if you get to danni3ll3, DanAyo, alfanso, or Benito levels, you might want to consider purchasing in 25 or 50 pound bags from Costco or your local restaurant supplier.
Thanks; just wanted to be 100% sure :-)
Take care and bon appetit!
Thanks for that, @idaveindy!
No - for the moment, not that much.
You never know, though :-)))