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Jason's Quick Coccodrillo Ciabatta Bread

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LilDice's picture
LilDice

Jason's Quick Coccodrillo Ciabatta Bread

This is a formula originally posted on usenet in the great alt.bread.recipes group by Jason Molina all credit to him and the 'King of Gloop', I'm reposting it here for those that missed it there. I've made this quite a few times and it's always a huge hit. Giant bubbles and a golden crust. Best part is you can do the whole thing in about 4-5 hours. It does not use the traditional stretch/fold method for a ciabatta because it's so damn wet, the only stretch is the final shaping.

THIS WILL NOT HURT YOUR PRECIOUS KITCHEN AIDS

Ciabatta Bread Ciabatta Bread

Variaton 1

500g bread flour
475g (~2 cups) water
2 tsp. yeast
15g salt

Varation 2 (Semolina)

350g bread flour
150g semolina flour
475-485g (~2cups) water
2tsp. yeast
15g salt

 

  1. In Kitchen Aid style mixer: Mix all ingredients roughly till combined with paddle, let it rest for 10 minutes.
  2. With the paddle (I prefer the hook to prevent the dough from crawling into the guts of the mixer), beat the living hell out of the batter, it will start out like pancake batter but in anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes it will set up and work like a very sticky dough. if it starts climbing too soon, then switch to the hook. You'll know it's done when it separates from the side of the bowl and starts to climb up your hook/paddle and just coming off the bottom of the bowl. I mean this literally about the climbing, i once didn't pay attention and it climbed up my paddle into the greasy inner workings of the mixer. It was not pretty! Anyway, it will definately pass the windowpane test.
  3. Place into a well oiled container and let it triple! it must triple! For me this takes about 2.5 hours
  4. Empty on to a floured counter (scrape if you must, however you gotta get the gloop out), cut into 3 or 4 peices. Spray with oil and dust with lots o' flour. Let them proof for about 45 minutes, which gives you enough time to crank that oven up to 500F.
  5. After 45 minutes or so the loaves should be puffy and wobbly, now it's iron fist, velvet glove time. Pick up and stretch into your final ciabatta shape (~10" oblong rectangle) and flip them upside down (this redistributes the bubbles, so you get even bubbles throughout), and onto parchment or a heavily floured peel. Try to do it in one motion and be gentle, it might look like you've ruined them completely, but the oven spring is immense on these things.
  6. Bake at 500F until they are 205F in the cnter (about 15-20 minutes), rotating 180 degrees half way through. Some people like to turn the oven down to 450F after 10 minutes, but whatever floats your boat. I usually bake in 2 batches.

 

Here's my crumb:

Crumb

 

And my loaves:

Loaves

 

Original usenet thread with extensive discussion and Q&A - http://groups.google.com/group/alt.bread.recipes/browse_thread/thread/ad0e477790ef4f03/a644f520f4b3cd48?rnum=2#

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

Hi, Awesome bread. Which version is shown in your photo? Semolina or not? Thanks.                                                                                             weavershouse

LilDice's picture
LilDice

Is the non-semolina version, that photo's about a year old. lately I've been doing the semolina version, semolina tastes a bit better, but performs and looks the same. The crumb has slightly more color that's the only real diff looks wise.

james9's picture
james9

Made this yesterday with 50% semolina and it came out beautifully, many thanks. Elastic, yet light and full of flavour. eerr how does one attach a photo here?

Just Loafin's picture
Just Loafin

Hi James -


To attach a photo, you can go two different ways to end up with the same thing...



  • Click My Account - click the File browser tab, then upload

  • From the Reply interface, click the little green tree icon. To the right of the Image URL input box, there is a Browse icon. Click that, then upload.


Those are the two ways to upload your pics here to TFL, then use them in a post. If you have them hosted off-site somewhere, just hit the green tree and provide the URL.


- Keith

james9's picture
james9

Images of my bread adventures pending. Time permitting of course!

Juicegoose's picture
Juicegoose

If I wanted to add some roasted garlic or olives or Italian seasoning to the recipe at what point would that need to be incorporated? Also if after mixing the dough if I wanted to split the recipe to make two different versions would that be bad to the rise? Thanks folks this recipe has been great so far.

Alfie's picture
Alfie

I did 50% semolina also.  The flavor and crust were excellent.  I typically use bulk organic flours.  I used a Globe 8 qt mixer switching between the paddle and hook.  When using the hook the double batch causes the the mixer to jumb around a bit so I have to hold it down eventhough it weighs 55 pounds.


Thanks to all on TFL.

lynnpreston's picture
lynnpreston

i'm in the USA and the conversion calculator says 15 grams of salt equals 3 teaspoons of salt.  This sounds huge and I'm trying this recipe for the first time.  Can someone advise?

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

You should be using a scale every time you bake.  Make sure it's in grams and ounces and it has a tare feature.  The salt amount is correct in the recipe.  ciabatta is salty tasting to me, so the salt amt here wasn't a big surprise.  Good luck!

Poco Askew's picture
Poco Askew

I use less salt than the recipe calls for (about 2 teaspoons Kosher). My old notes say: table salt=6g per tsp. and Koesher salt=4.8g per teaspoon.

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

Whatever works for you, but I think the salt helps develop the hole structure too

cmkrause's picture
cmkrause

I followed this recipe to the T and it turned out perfectly.  I did have to change from the paddle to the hook after 3 minutes because the dough was quickly rising to the top of the paddle, but changing to the hook really made a difference.  I continued to mix for a total of 10 minutes on 6 and all was well. The dough did indeed triple in 2 1/2 hours!  I was a little concerned that there was virtually no rise once cutting the dough into 3 disproportionate pieces, but once in the oven the rise was incredible.  Will post pictures shortly.  This is a great, simple ciabatta recipe.  Thanks so much!

Jovanna's picture
Jovanna

The first time I made this, the bread didn't impress me much; but I knew it had potential, it was probably something I didn't do right.  The second time, much better, when I let the dough become firmer during the kneading phase and waited for the dough to lift off the bottom of bowl before proceeding. Everything fell into place better after that; the bread had a much higher oven spring and bigger holes.  I even used my little top oven which only goes as high as 450 degrees--it was too hot to use the regular oven . Even at that 'lower' temp, it came out great b/c the dough was prepared properly.  For me, the key to successful ciabatta was the adequate kneading of dough in the stand mixer.  I would suggest to others, do not dismiss this step lightly! Happy Baking. 

nycnaples's picture
nycnaples

I did try this yesterday for the first time and I wondered what temperature the 2 cups of water should be at ...any help thanks

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

I've always just used room temperature.  Your dough will heat up in the mix quite a bit.  Yeast is still active even in cooler water.. so room temp has always worked for me in this recipe.

Rblome's picture
Rblome

This bread is awesome.  The holy grail of ciabatta.  I have made it non-stop since finding this recipe.  You have to try this.  As good as my artisan bakery produces.


Thanks for posting the formula!!!


 

mattie405's picture
mattie405

I have so much trouble getting any breads I try to make to come out this great, but this ciabatta makes everyone I share it with think I can bake, between this and pizza I am making so many new friends. Last week I let these rest on a heavily floured couche made from some 100% cotton unbleached canvas that I fashioned into a 6 foot by 2 1/2 foot legnth and they came out even better than they did when I used to let them do the proofing on parchment. I love these for making sandwiches either eaten as is or grilled, hubbys favorite on these is a cuban sandwich but I like just about any sandwich on them.

Tomahawk Cook's picture
Tomahawk Cook

I would love to make this bread and have a scale, but I need to know pounds, ounces, not grams, Help please........

Floydm's picture
Floydm

There are 28.3 grams in an ounce, so whip out the calculator (or ask Google) and you'll have the answer in no time.

dstroy's picture
dstroy

damn - that's some of the prettiest darn bread I've seen in a long while!

pjkobulnicky's picture
pjkobulnicky

Looks like this dough would make great pizza.  When you have the dough up in the air to stretch and fold it prior to baking, stretch it into a rough  pizza shape, put it onto parchment, slap on the toppings and go. I use my ciabatta recipe for pizza all the time and it is terrific. You might want to crank up the oven as high as it will go for pizza though.

 

Paul Kobulnicky

Baking in Ohio

LilDice's picture
LilDice

Yep, makes a fine pizza, I've made ones form the leftover peices from shaping, works great.

Trishinomaha's picture
Trishinomaha

The crumb was Magnificent! Mine didn't get nearly as brown as yours. Any ideas regarding that? I must admit I've never worked with such gloppy wet dough but now I "get it" and it really does make the crumb we're all looking for in this type of bread. Have you tried adapting this recipe to sour dough?

Trish in Omaha

LilDice's picture
LilDice

Really depends, sometimes I get a light crust sometimes a darker one. If I had to guess why, I'd say it's in how long you do the 2nd proof. There needs to be sugar left in there for it to turn brown. So maybe it's an under/over proof thing.

Oh and no on the sour dough, I'm a sour dough virgin, hopefully not for much longer though. 

xma's picture
xma

The problem with my ciabatta is that the crust is too thick and hard (forget chewy, mine is a real challenge on the jaws).  Could you please tell me if and how (in detail please) you steam? 

Thanks.

LilDice's picture
LilDice

The curst is not thick and hard at all on this formula. I do not use steam in the oven, I stopped doing that because really I couldn't tell the difference.

 

As for a hard crust, the crust will be hard right out of the oven, but if you don't cut into it and let it cool for the proper 45 minutes the curst should be nice and soft. I think I read some where if u cut it right out of the oven you're letting the steam out the middle instead of letting it go through the crust to soften it. 

raj's picture
raj

let the bread rest for 2-3 min on a cookie rack after it comes out from the oven..then wrap your loaf with a moist cheesecloth for 10 min or so...i have a 2 layer cheesecloth.. your crust on top sides n bottom will be moist yet chewy like those loaves in fancy expensive places

Squid's picture
Squid

Wow, I see someone made a wonderful, airy ciabatta with white spelt flour. I'll have to try that when my mom comes to visit.

kjknits's picture
kjknits

Hi there--from a new member of the Fresh Loaf!  I'll post an introduction on the appropriate board, but I had to first post my reaction to this formula.  It's amazing!  I just took my first batch out of the oven this afternoon.  Beautiful browned loaves, my first try at ciabatta.  I used KAF bread flour, kosher salt and SAF instant yeast.  I mixed it with my Kitchen Aid for 20 minutes after the 10-minute rest, which was enough to achieve the climbing dough as described.  I placed the dough in a Rubbermaid canister and measured it along the side so I could be sure it tripled, which was going to be a final rise height of 6" in my container.  I set a timer for 2.5 hours and was shocked to see it had gotten to 7 " in an hour and a half!  That was just at normal room temp in my kitchen (this is the South, but still, we have the AC on).

I baked the loaves, on parchment and on my stone, in two batches at 500 in my regular old electric oven.  I did use a steam pan and three consecutive sprays from a mister as PR advocates in the BBA.  It took 20 minutes to get the nice, reddish-brown color that I was looking for.  And, wow, is all I can say.  For a pretty short fermentation, this bread delivers fantastic flavor.  And the crumb is so moist!

This was my first time working with such a slack dough (with the exception of Pain a l'Ancienne).  I'm no whiz at math, but am I correct in figuring that this formula is at 95% hydration?  The huge holes in the crumb are unbelievable.  And LilDice is right--the oven spring is nothing short of an athletic feat.

I'm glad I found this board, and hope to meet new friends AND find new bread-baking frontiers. =)

LilDice's picture
LilDice

Glad you liked it, yeah the percentage is nearly 100%. Glad to see you got such great results, I have to say baking this bread sort of feels like cheatin.

It's a strange feeling doing it the first time, you swear that there's no way it's going to come together, but before long that thing's tryin to escape the bowl!

kjknits's picture
kjknits

Once again I have to say I love this bread. Now I've made it twice--the first three loaves got eaten so fast (one went to a neighbor) and I still wanted more! But now I have two loaves in the freezer for future enjoyment.

Here's the first loaf I cut into:

first loaf

And here's my second batch, first loaf:

second batch

The second batch had way more oven spring, though I did nothing differently (except realize I didn't have to flour the dough as heavily as I did on the second rise the first time). Bread is so funny that way--consistency is hard to achieve. Or it is for me, at least.

Here's one more shot of these pretty (albeit oddly shaped) loaves.

ciabatta

This will be a new staple bread in my house!

LilDice's picture
LilDice

Awesome crumb on all of them, you're right consistancy is hard to achieve though. The seocnd batch looks like it could have been stretched more lengthwise in the shaping. If this is gonna be a weekly bread like someone else said it makes a great pizza, next time you bake some try reserving a bit and you have just enough for a small pizza. My wife always requests it, and I imagine it'd be great for kids.

bluezebra's picture
bluezebra

without an electric mixer?

I don't have one that can handle dough and since finding the stretch and fold method, I actually put the need for one on the low priority list.

Can I just stir briskly for about 3 minutes, then rest it for about 15-30 minutes then come back and stir again for about 3 minutes? Doing this for about 4 stirs and get the same type of gluten development, do you think?

Have you ever tried making this by hand? I have an awesome spatula that is my favorite over the years that is a one piece huge job that's extra sturdy and can withstand the elasticity of wet dough.

Thanks!

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

I hope this can be made by hand. If anyone else posts photos of their great results I'm going to be tempted to buy a mixer. Or go to someone's house who has one so I can make this bread.                                                                  weavershouse

bluezebra's picture
bluezebra

I'm going to try this dough by hand! I will post in my blog about the results this weekend and will also take photos (good or bad) with it.

I think I've had a breakthrough about gluten formation with uber wet doughs and want to try it out with this one to see if I'm right about it. If so, it may help all of us. Boy wouldn't that be incredible? But lol, I'm also a realist and know that just because "groovy is the coolest new word in my school" (my nephew came home from first grade telling me this one day! lol) that you pros may have already cracked this code!

Anyways...just wanted to let you know!

Cheers!

kjknits's picture
kjknits

I can't vouch for it myself, but you could try making it in a food processor, if you have one.  I know PR says in the BBA that you can make his ciabatta formula in the food processor.  I actually am supposed to try that sometime for a friend of mine, who has a food processor but not a mixer.  When I do, I'll post my results here.

bluezebra's picture
bluezebra

I do have a fairly large capacity robot coupe we found last year on ebay that is a dynamo for strength. I could try mixing in that but like Weaver, look forward to hearing if agitating the dough by hand would produce enough "oomph" to activate the gluten!

:) I'm trying to use my hands on all my baking until I really get a firm grasp (all puns intended) on what dough is supposed to feel like at the beginning, middle, and end of a process!

Happy baking Katie!

JIP's picture
JIP

Made this as soon as I read the recipe and it was great!!.  I did not have a chance to take any pics as I ate it too fast it was gone before I could get my camera out.  This was the moast bubbly cibatta I have ever made.  The crumb was very soft and the crust was alot softer than I expected.  The only problem I had was shaping as this was a very wet dough.  I highly doubt that this dough could be made by hand as it took me almost 25 minutes in my KA to develop the gluten enough to make this a workable dough.

LilDice's picture
LilDice

What flour are you using, I've found Semolina + King Arthur Bread flour takes only about 10 minutes to come together, and I've had just straight up King Arhur come together in as little as 5 minutes

 

kjknits's picture
kjknits

I used KAF Bread both times I have made this, and it took 15-20 minutes to get to windowpane material.  I mixed it on speed 6 in the KitchenAid (mine is a 4.5 qt, 300 watt model).

pelosofamily's picture
pelosofamily

Brought up with chickens  in the back yard in my youth, I was surprised at the name of this bread. In Italian, it is the sound made by a rooster!!!  I need to make this recipe.  Talk about my roots.  OMG way to old!

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

Our grandaughter made her First Communion last Sunday and in the homily the priest showed a brand of bread who's name means "Behold the Bread". I couldn't catch how he said it in Italian. Being Italian myself (Gambino...ok, Sicilian) I thought I'd like to put "Behold the Bread" (in Italian) on the breadcloths I weave to cover my bread. Thanks for any help.                                                                                                                                                                           weavershouse

bluezebra's picture
bluezebra

I think the Latin for "Behold the Bread" is

Ecce panis!  (panis being the nominative case) Latin has different words for the same item - grammar dependent. Look at this site:

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=636267

 

Hope this helps!

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

Ok, that sounds good and it will be easy to stencil.  Thanks so much.                                               weavershouse

LilDice's picture
LilDice

Yeah, it means crocodile in Italian see here - http://www.shaboomskitchen.com/breadbox/crocodile.html

wren's picture
wren

i was always told by my italian friends that ciabatta actually meant slipper bread because of the shape the loaves took upon coming out of the oven. but maybe its crocodiles in slippers making rooster sounds? a winning combo, clearly.

Chuck's picture
Chuck

My understanding is the name "Coccodrillo (Crocodile Bread)" came from an Italian bakery via Carol Fields (read the reference in the posting above for details). And "Ciabatta" is a generally used term  for a very light and fluffy style of bread that originally derived from its typical shape ("Slipper Bread").


So the combination "Coccodrillo Ciabatta" is a clever name for a particular Ciabatta that's even wetter than most (100% hydration?).

bluezebra's picture
bluezebra

Well I did it! I made this bread by hand and it was very easy! Here's the link to my blog with pictures. Feel free to make comments there. I just didn't want to take over lildice's thread with it!

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/3088/bluezebras-baking-banter#comment-14086

LilDice's picture
LilDice

That was interesting, so you had to keep stretching and while it was actually proofing, I didn't realize you could do that without deflating.

bluezebra's picture
bluezebra

When I do the stretch and fold on the counter, which is really when it comes down to it most of what I've done in the baking department, I've worked with preferments mostly. The bread continues to rise and bubble the whole time I do the French folds. Even when I use Mike Avery's technique (which is all I ever use cuz it rocks) which has you use 1 wet hand on top and pulling/stretching gently but firmly from the bottom wiht a scraper. I don't ever fully deflate the bread. It usually grows by about 2/3 during my 90 minute fold timeframe. And more when I do folds at 1 hour intervals. I recently switched to 30 minute folds. I think the crumb and flavor develop better at 1 hour intervals. The dough is also easier to stretch at that point. There is more resistance to the stretch at 30 minutes.

 Soooo....yeah, as I suspected with a dough this wet and judging from all the other more knowledgeable posters on this board as well as Mike, it's actually the pure stretching more than the muscle that develops the gluten. So doing the very exagerated fold in the bowl with the wet wet dough did the same thing along with the resting cycles as a KA mixer for 30 minutes lol. Cool huh? I did it in the bowl in order to keep from adding a variable of the extra flour that would have taken the hydration down from 95% to something more in line with an 80% hydration dough maybe?

Anyway, would love for the experts to step in and give their thoughts?! I would love for others to try this recipe making it by hand to see the results?

 Happy baking!

p.s. We just had this tonight with wine and olive oil and avocado. I liked it quite alot as a ciabatta. But I do think it lacked flavor a bit compared to breads with a longer rise and a preferment or even a sourdough starter. I think this would be a good recipe to incorporate with one of those flavor busters. You know?

And the crumb while not as creamy as SD-G and bwraith's pagnotta was not dry. It was still creamy with a very thick and crunchy crust. I rewarmed the bread at 400 till crisp.

creamerja's picture
creamerja

I made this by hand today!!  I followed the instructions exactly, except I mixed with a wooden spoon for two minutes at a time and then let the dough rest for 10 minutes.  It only took me five cycles of this to get the dough to stick together enough.  I literally beat the crap out of it during those two minute segments!  I then let it rise for 2 1/2 hours in my electric oven (with the light on.)  It rose a little more than triple though!

This is an awesome tasting bread!  Will definately make it again!

Thanks, JoAnn

Susan's picture
Susan

It looks beautiful! How's your shoulder?

Susan

bluezebra's picture
bluezebra

Congrats to you!!! It's not so bad huh? And it's pretty cool to know we can work with 95% hydration dough without a stanking mixer right! ;)

LilDice's picture
LilDice

By the way, I made a proper pizza recipe out of this dough (half batch). I posted it in the pizza forum and here:

 

http://hollosyt.googlepages.com/quickrusticciabattapizza 

bluezebra's picture
bluezebra

I made a pretty incredible ultra thin crust dough that was adapted from the Cook's Illustrated Pizza Dough for Grilling recipe. It was absolutely the best for a "cracker type" thin crust.

But I'm still searching for the pinnacle of doughs for both the Neopolitan style and also the pan style pizza.

Part of the fam is a cracker thin crust eater.

I love Neopolitan and DH loves pan pizza.

Yeah life is tough ;)

Thanks LilDice!

momaste's picture
momaste

this recipe is TASTY but i couldn't get my crumb the same. the bread was very tight. i was hoping for the airy ciabatta....i'll try again today and let it rise for a longer period. i wonder if i handled it too much just prior to baking. hmmmm.
well, cheers all!

raj's picture
raj

u can swaddle the bread in moist cheesecloth after it comes out from the oven (allow 2-3 min to breath of its own) for 10 min or so....it renders soft and chewy crust

jkm's picture
jkm

so how much flour is 500 grams? 500 grams is just over two cups

I have a new hand mixer with a cookie ...dough hook, think I will try that.... with the  rest sessions.....this bread should be lighter  than cookkie dough

 

 

http://www.jsward.com/cooking/conversion.shtml

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

JKM,

Per the table at the link you posted, 500 grams of whole wheat flour would equate to almost 4 and a quarter cups (500/120 = 4.17) and 500 grams of well-sifted white flour would equate to just over 4 and a half cups (500/110 = 4.55).  That's pretty consistent with what I have experienced when I weigh cups of flour that I measure with the "stir and spoon" approach.  Dipping or scooping the cup into the flour yields heavier cupfuls.  Unless you are really packing the flour into your measuring cups, two cups of flour in a recipe calling for 500 grams will probably yield something approaching the consistency of pancake batter.

It took me a while to convert from measuring by volume to measuring by weight, but I love it now.  It really cuts down on the dish washing and makes the outcome much more (though not entirely) predictable.

Even though your hand mixer came equipped with dough hooks, give them the heave ho so that you aren't tempted to use them.  Even the softest bread dough is going to bog down a hand-held mixer and will probably damage the motor or gears.  Use a stand mixer if you have a heavy-duty one or mix and knead the dough by hand. 

I hope your bread turns out well. 

PMcCool

PastryPaul's picture
PastryPaul

A cup of AP is about 130 grams.

A pound is 454 grams.

 

 

jkm's picture
jkm

 

  Well I did not see your post until too late, oh my.

I used what I thought was the correct amount of flour, about 2 1/2 cups, beat it with the cookie dough hooks, which really did develop the flour well, but it was not enough flour, and ran like pancake dough all over everything, what a mess, trying to hold it on the flour with my scraper. excited dogs ....

So I beat in another cup of flour, did a few folds and told it to be ready for the overn in 40 minutes,  The loaf reminded me of the  first one in NO Knead to Knead, which came out some years back and had some nice wet dough rescipes.

Well we ate it and it was great with fresh garden tomates and a little salt and olive oil

bake on !

 

fearlessemily's picture
fearlessemily

Hi all --

I've had this recipe on my to-try list for a long time, and finally got around to it! I made it exactly as stated (the regular, not the semolina version), and the first thing I should note is that while I beat it in the KA for the full 30 minutes, it never pulled away from the sides / bottom of the bowl, and never climbed the paddle -- it stayed too wet for that. So next time I might try just a little less flour...

As a result, there was no way to "cut" the dough into three pieces after it had tripled (more like 2-and-a-halfed, until it collapsed)... So I decided to make one huge loaf instead... And huge it was -- almost the size of a half sheet pan.

The results? Very tasty and I thought the texture was pefect -- just the right spongy ciabattaness. HOWEVER, it had almost no oven spring for me, so it stayed very very flat -- the whole loaf is maybe only 2 inches high. Sigh. Oh well, guess I will just have to try again, perhaps this time with a smidge more flour... Here are a few pics...

Any suggestions are very much appreciated!

Emily (excited to be making my first post!)

redcatgoddess's picture
redcatgoddess

invert the tripled dough onto a HEAVILY floured table cloth or cloth napkin.  then heavily coat your hand, bench scraper or knife, then cute into quaters (1/3 if you like). then just gently (very softly) remove them then pull them apart.

This dough is traditionally made by hand, I don't recommand using mixer, too much 'manhandling' for the dough will decrease the leavning.

LilDice's picture
LilDice

Ok, it's obvious why it didn't rise. You didn't develop enough gluten for air to be trapped in the dough.

 If I had to guess why your's never came together it's probably because you didn't mix it fast enough. I start out on my KA with the PADDLE at 6 -- this is pretty fast, once it starts to crawl up the paddle I switch to the hook until it lifts up off the bottom of the bowl. It takes about 15 minutes typically. You were probably mixing waaay too slow.

fearlessemily's picture
fearlessemily

Hi LilDice --

Thanks for your reply. I had never considered the idea that it would be under-kneaded, since it was going for so long... I didn't have it going super slow -- I think a 3 or 4 on my KA -- but 6 would certainly be much faster, so I will try that soon and let you know how it goes!

 

Thanks again,

Emily  

mattie405's picture
mattie405

Has anyone tried this in another mixer, such as a DLX or a Bosch Universal? Everytime I come to this site I look at this particular thread and really want to try my hand at this but wanted to ask if anyone had used either of these mixers and what procedure they used with them to get the same result. I think this would make a grand grilled sandwich..............I can almost taste it just looking at these pictures. The weather here in the deep south so I am looking forward to being able to resume my bread baking trials.............no central air in this house so not much gets baked when the temps are well over 90 and the humidity is well over that!

LilDice's picture
LilDice

Give it a try in your universal, you really don't need a dough hook, you're just beating the hell out of it until it gets kind of a rubbery texture.

mattie405's picture
mattie405

I already had it going in the DLX when I saw your reply, don't know how it's going to come out but it doesn't cost much to try and it keeps this old lady entertained! Thanks for the reply. mattie

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

The first time I made this, I used my DLX and never did switch to the dough hook.  The Roller was used throughout the entire process.  I gave it a full cycle on high speed - about 12 minutes.  It came out perfectly every time I've used the DLX.  The other day I switched it up and made it in my KitchenAid Pro.  Took a lot longer for the dough to set up properly and overall, I didn't get as much holiness as I have before, but the bread was still nice and textured, with alot of smaller holes - great crust and flavor.


 

cej2's picture
cej2

I thought ciabatta meant slipper , because of its shape...

Marty's picture
Marty

I agree with slipper for the meaning of ciabatta, as does my Italian dictionary.

 Anyway has anyone come up with a flour/ water ratio that isn't so wet?  If so did it effect the crumb?

 

 

 

homegrown's picture
homegrown

Thank you, for this great recipe. It is such great bread and so easy. thank you again. we are eating your bread in Glasgow!

docpat's picture
docpat

For those of us not fortunate enough to be using a scale yet , what is the teaspoon equivelent for 15 g of salt and is that Kosher or table style salt?

Floydm's picture
Floydm

I just measured 15 grams of table salt. It came to around 2 teaspoons. I'd suggest 2 heaping teaspoons if you are using kosher or sea salt.

jeffteel's picture
jeffteel

This is my first attempt with this recipe. How did I do?

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Very nicely done.

harrygermany's picture
harrygermany

Hi jeffteel,

I like your bread best.
It's because there is a little crumb left inside the bread and not all bubbles and crust.

Think of some nicely roast meat with some lovely sauce - you will be happy about some crumb.

For fun I once made a wheat bread out of a very wet dough by stretching and folding many times - I had ONE big bubble with some crust around.
Interesting to look at, but not really nice to eat.

Harry


---------------------------------------
Everyone is a stranger somewhere -
so don´t give narrowmindedness or
intolerance no chance nowhere.

docpat's picture
docpat

After twenty-five years of baking with traditional style artisan loaves, rolls, pizzas, etc., I decided that this post gave me the courage to try a really slack dough. The resultant bread was delicious, but didn't look anything like the internal crumb structure everyone else is achieving.

I tried making a ciabatta type bread (although not in shape) according to the instructions above, although I did change the formula slightly. Was the following result because of the formula changes or something else.

I used one cup of cold butter milk and one cup of room temp water, one half cup of wheat sourdough poolish, two and a half cups of bread flour, two teaspoons of Kosher salt and two and a quarter teaspoons of proofed yeast. I kneaded with a Kitchen Aid on speed five and six for thirty minutes using both the paddle and then the hook. It never really came together away from the sides of the bowl like a traditional dough does so I dumped it on the bench and  continued folding and stretching until it would hold together, which only took about six folds. The initial rise was for approximately one and a half hours which tripled the volume, the second was for one  hour which doubled the size. The dough was very slack and I needed a bench scraper to help in the folding and shaping but it did hold together enough to hold its shape. The dough was stretched and folded after each rise prior to the final shaping. I made one boule and one banneton.

The loaves were baked in a 450F oven, misted every thirty seconds for a total of four times during the first two minutes and a pan of boiling water was placed in the oven on the stone for the first five minutes. The loaves were pulled from the oven after the internal temp reached 205F which took ten minutes for the banneton and fifteen for the boule. 

The loaves rose in the oven beautifully as expected, the loaves looked beautiful when removed from the oven as expected, taste was an absolutely delicious soft buttery creamy mouth feel  as expected, the crust was softer than a regular ciabatta as expected due to the milk,  but there was not a single large hole in the crumb which was not expected. From the external appeareances both prior and post baking and the slackness of the dough, I was expecting large holes, however, upon cutting open it looked like a sandwich loaf. It was delicious but not what I was expecting.

Could the buttermilk be responsible for the change in crumb?

harrygermany's picture
harrygermany

Hi docpat,

there is at least one thing that makes the success of your baking unlikely.

You wrote: "I kneaded with a Kitchen Aid on speed five and six for thirty minutes"
That is where you killed the gluten structure.
Much too long and to fast. 8-10 minutes with low speed would have done.
And if the dough didn't come away from the sides of the bowl, you made something wrong before.

Harry

---------------------------------------
Everyone is a stranger somewhere -
so don´t give narrowmindedness or
intolerance no chance nowhere.

GalacticOverlordDesignate's picture
GalacticOverlor...

The following is my original post. (under a different  Nom de Guerre)

 

The mixing times and speeds aere correct, work for me and have worked for many others for years and you are, in this instance, talking through your arse.

 An ounce of experimentation is worth a ton of shakily based theoretical speculation.

 

 

You need preferments for big holes, don't you?

 

Nope.

The pix at

(invalid URLs removed)

http://i28.tinypic.com/260wnz4.jpg 

show a bread made in 5 hours from geting the scale out of the cupboard to
putting the second batch to cool.

Details

John's Quick Cocodrillo Substitute<g>

Direct method, lean rustic dough, commercial yeast. Days to make, 1.

Yield 4 small-medium loaves.

500 gm 12%+ protein white flour.
550 gm warm (30C) water
1 1/2 tsp instant yeast    
10 gm salt

Mix til roughly combined, with the paddle, and rest for 10 min or so. Still
with the paddle, beat seven bells out of the glop on medium-high (3 on a
Kenwood)  until the dough is slapping around the bowl and clearing the bottom
completely. This will take about 25 - 30 min and nothing much will happen for
at least 15-20.

Tip the dough (glop) into an oiled bowl or similar, I use a cylindrical,
transparent, polyethylene food container with a tight sealing lid which makes
it very easy to see the progress of the rise, and leave, tightly covered, to
triple. It MUST triple or this recipe will not work!.

Pour onto a well floured surface, shake more flour over, divide into 4 rough
squares and plump,them up by sliding an angled bench knife under the dough.
Shake flour, generously over the loaves and their surroundings and leave until
extremely puffy and wobbly. about 45 minutes - just about right for heating the
oven to flat out max. Take no prisoners.

Using a floured bench knife free each loaf from the counter and, gently, flip
it over, pick it up,using floured hands and, gently, stretch it to about 10"
long and onto a peel, Superpeel (thank you Gary) or parchment. The dough very
nearly stretches under it's own weight. You must move quickly. It will look as
if you've totally and permanently deflated the bread. Trust Uncle John, he may
be a little wierd on occasions and is prone to "running off at the keyboard"
but he's actually done this stretch 'n' bake loads of times and it always
works.  Straight into the raging oven, down to 220 after 10 min, bake to
internal temp at least 96C and you can go as high as 98C if the crust doesn't
brown too quickly. You will not believe the oven spring. I baked the bread in 2
batches. The bread will pass the "thump the botttom" test long before the bread
is cooked - You Have Been Warned!

I filled the holes with Boursin and laid slices of Milano salad and Cornichons
on the top for an open sandwich that might have tempted the Ascetic Buddah.

Love

John

 

 

 

 

 

docpat's picture
docpat

Thank you for your reply harrygermany, and I totally agree with you. In fact I read and re-read the formula prior to baking when I read that the recommended speed and time were so high. I normally mix at speed two for three minutes and then speed three for three minutes which allows me the approximately 900 total revolutions suggested by Hamelman in “Bread” with wonderful results. Today’s bread, although not holey, came out absolutely delicious and was completely devoured before and during dinner tonight by some friends that come over.

 

Maybe I misunderstood LilDice’s formula to “Beat the Hell out of it” and “in ten to thirty minutes it will set up”. Perhaps LilDice meant to rest it for 10 to 30 minutes after the initial mix, although I read that kjknits also kneaded it “for twenty minutes on speed 6”, JIP kneaded in a Kitchen Aid “for almost twenty five” and fearlessemily had the same understanding and results that I did? In fact on September 17 post, LilDice tells fearlessemily that the reason was that she didn’t mix fast enough. LilDice? Are you out there?

GalacticOverlordDesignate's picture
GalacticOverlor...

If you haven't tried it DON'T TRASH IT

 

John 

jeffteel's picture
jeffteel

dopcat,

For good ciabatta, the dough must be really wet.  If you were able to handle it on the counter after you removed it from the mixer, it wasn't wet enough.  While the dough is mixing (I use speed 4 with the paddle attachment) it should look like pancake batter for the first 10 minutes or so.  All of a sudden, the long strands of gluten will pull the dough together.  It will totally change texture on you.  It will look almost like white "silly putty."

This, coupled with a longer rise and very gentle handling, is what gives you the large holes.

This is just my experience.  I learned to make ciabatta from the Rose Levy Beranbaum Book Bible, and this is what she says to do.

Jeff 

bakerb's picture
bakerb

I made this today, it turned-out great, thanks for the great recipe...I put the loaves on parchment paper, as suggested, it made the unruly dough easier to work with...I'm wondering if parchment paper gives off bad fumes, while baking...anyone know? Thanks, Beth

BetseyD's picture
BetseyD

Hi,

I have always used parchment paper in my baking - it does not give off fumes, and it has been a life (or, shall I say, sanity) saver for me on a number of occasions!

I know that there are "Organic" brands of parchment paper out there for sale, as I distinctly remember seeing them at my local health food market. These are sold as unbleached, all natural, etc...

I myself use the Reynold's brand, and have never had one bit of trouble (or any kind of fumes) with using it.

That being said, I have decided to try this bread within the next couple of days, and will post back here after I do so.

Happy baking!

 

Betsey

newme65's picture
newme65

I tried that recipe today and it turned out great but my parchment paper get stuck under ciabatta bread I had to cut to remove parchment paper from bread. Any suggestion What I was doing wrong?

Thanks ,Jale

BetseyD's picture
BetseyD

 

Hi Jale,

 

I don't know if anyone has answered this yet for you or not - but - have you tried flouring the Parchment Paper before placing the dough on it?  Try taking a generous amount of whatever flour you used in your recipe and use it to flour your Parchment!  You can also try using an equally generous amount of Cornmeal to flour the Parchment.  Half a dozen one, six the other - I have used both and had equally successful results with either one.  It is just a matter of personal taste, and sometimes supply.

I always, very liberally, flour my Parchment Paper before placing anything on it and have never had a problem with the removal of bread after baking.

I love Parchment Paper; it is one of the greatest inventions ever for baking, and I use it for pretty much everything that I bake! 

I hope that this helps you out!

Take care, and Good Luck!

 

Betsey

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

Your oven needs to be really hot.  I start preheating it 45 minutes in advance, during the final rest.

HeidiH's picture
HeidiH

I get silicone-free parchment via amazon.  I hear it's also available at Whole Foods but we don't have one here.  The brand name is "Beyond Gourmet" and it comes in long rolls that have far more square feet on a roll than the Reynolds.  Since it is non-coated, un-bleached, etc., it doesn't throw off any fumes. 

uncouth's picture
uncouth

I simply cannot see myself wrestling another wet loaf onto a stone, only to watch it not rise because, well...I had to wrestle it.  There is absolutely nothing in parchent paper that can give off fumes.  Although, may depend on brand.  I use Reynold's.

I have GOT to make this bread...NOW! 

_________________________________________________________________ 

Vex not the dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup...

newme65's picture
newme65

I tried that recipe today and it turned out great but my parchment paper get stuck under ciabatta bread I had to cut to remove parchment paper from bread. Any suggestion What I was doing wrong?

Thanks ,Jale

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I think you had just paper under your loaf.  Can be tricky if decorative paper is sold to look like baking parchment.  Happened to me too ...a couple of times.  Lots of clues in the picture, look to see how baked food is shown.  Stay away if no baked goods are shown.  Pictures on baking parchment show baked goods or raw dough and temperature range up to 220°c 

Nothing sticks to baking parchment.

Mini O

texaspenguin's picture
texaspenguin

Tried this today with some wonderful results. Used 150g of whole wheat flour instead of semolina for a nuttier flavor and it came out wonderfully. Good crumb, great crust - rise occurred in the oven when I didn't expect it to.

 

aliao's picture
aliao

Wow, great looking loaf. I have tried ww ciabatta before but it did not come out this good.  You have inspired me to try and make it again.

oregon.rain's picture
oregon.rain

I just made a $5 loaf of bread!!!...actually, 3 loaves.  What a great recipe, fabulous flavor and texture.  Sorry to my local bakery, I won't be spending my $5 there anymore...I can do it in my own kitchen!  Woo Hoo!

Easy and forgiving dough.  They slid very nicely off a well-floured cooking sheet onto my heated baking stone.  However, as I was sliding my 2nd loaf onto the baking stone, I got a bit of a "hitch in my stride" and the shaped loaf ended up on the stone as a lump.  Never fear, it came out nicely baked and looking, for all the world,  as if I had intended to shape it that way!  Hey, after all, this is artisan baking!

andre_lynn's picture
andre_lynn

Love this bread with butter. I'll try John's formula for a wetter dough tomorrow. Baked the loaves for 20 minutes - probably should have left them in the oven for a little longer.

Thanks for posting this recipe!

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Nice looking loaves! Yes, it is a great and fast recipe. I like it because you can make it in a day. Sort of a "quckie" bread. I've also added my sourdough discard to the mix and have had nice results.

 

kenfromco's picture
kenfromco

Wow , a fantastic bread! thanks!

newme65's picture
newme65

I have Chicago Metallic Professional Nonstick Perforated French Bread Pan . Can I use it on step #3 proof 45 minutes and bake in it either spray with oil or heavily floured.

 Jale

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

you don't need anything on it.  The first time it's used, there might be some extra instuction to lightly oil it or something - check with the label.   As far as I know, no preparation required.

Mini O

newme65's picture
newme65

I used Reynolds parchment yesterday and it did not stick on bread. Also I used my french bread pan only spraying oil and it turned out great. I won't be spending any money buying bread anymore. My daughter loved it. Thanks Mini Oven for your comments. It was very helpful

Jale

knormie's picture
knormie

I'm a long time lurker, first time poster.  This is such a great recipe that I had to comment.  I've made this 2 weekends in a row and my family and friends devour it.  I'm making it at 90% hydration.  I'm also holding the salt out until after the 10 minute rest to give the yeast a head start.  Fantastic, predictable results.

ciabatta 

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

Welcome to TFL, glad you joined us. Looking forward to seeing some more of your breads.

 Betty

shiela's picture
shiela

Beautiful bread.  Please explain "90% hydration"... (thanks!)

LindyD's picture
LindyD

I think a visit to Wild Yeast's tutorial will give you an excellent understanding of baker's percentage and calculating hydration, Shiela.

Tommy M's picture
Tommy M

I think I followed the steps to the letter.  I found it very odd that the dough crawled up the hook in like 10 seconds...not 10 min.  It's been 3.5 hours and it has not tripled in size.  Something does not seem right.  In doing the conversion of 500g of flour that came to 4.5 cups which someone confirmed in a post.  475g of water is 2 cups.  It just did not seem wet at all.  Got sticky right away and my KA mixer was bogging down after  I let it set then beat it.

 Any help? 

Tommy M's picture
Tommy M

As expected, the bread was dense.  It just did not rise like it should have and it was not "wet."  Having said that, it looked much like many of the pictures posted but without the nice big air holes.  Tasted very good as well.  This was my first try.  My thinking is that there was either not enough water or too much flour but I followed the directions. 

 

 

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Glad it turned out, Tommy. Your measurements might have been off since you didn't scale the ingredients.  It makes a difference:

I measured out two cups of water using a liquid measuring container and placed the water in a container on my scale.  Came to 467g.

I then used a cup intended for dry ingredients, filled it with water twice, and measured the weight:  417g.

A cup of unbleached bread flour weighs 4.5 ounces, or 127.58 grams (per the calculator)

You noted you used 4.5 cups of flour.  127.58 times 4.5 equals 574.11g.

Flour is especially problematic when using a measuring cup because your cup of flour could weigh much more than mine, depending on how each of us fills that cup with flour.

Perhaps you have a birthday coming soon?  A scale would be a wonderful gift!
Tommy M's picture
Tommy M

Thanks for your reply.  So would you agree that I either used too much flour or not enough water?  I mean, there is not much to this recipe.  Can I ask why it just doesn't say, 4.5 cups of flour and 2.5 cups of water?  Why the "grams?"

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Not knowing what type of measuring cups you used, or how you loaded your flour into the cup, Tommy, it's hard to say whether you had too much flour or too little water.  Am guessing the answer is both, since you said the dough was not wet.  I've made this ciabatta many times and it is like pancake batter at the start of the mix.

The gram measurement was listed because using weight instead of volume is accurate. The only way you can be certain you have 500 grams of flour and 475 grams of water is to weigh it.  

The first bread book I purchased didn't use volume measurements, so I had to buy a scale if I wanted to bake any of the breads.  I discovered that aside from the accuracy, weighing the ingredients is faster and I never wind up with spilled flour on the counter.  

You can get a good scale with a tare function that measures in ounces, grams, or pounds for less than $30. 


 

 

 

Tommy M's picture
Tommy M

Thanks again for helping.  I must tell you that I am not a bread baker.  I just happen to have a sandwich from an Italian deli last week and they had these awesome Ciabatta rolls...got me thinking.

 Anyway, second batch was much better in that the mix was like pancake batter and took about 30 to come off the sides of the mixer.  Without a scale I altered the flour and noted it.  All went pretty well after that until the stretch and shape part.  Wow, that's not easy.  Also, it seemed like the loafs I stretched did not rise at all while the 2 that I just flipped and baked did. 

 The pictures I see in this blog seem to vary in how much rise there is.  Some look like it's an inch or 2 (like mine) while others look nice and tall (like maybe 3 or 4"). Any trick to getting it to rise like a nice loaf of regular Italian bread?

Thanks,

Tom 

theschnouz's picture
theschnouz

I made the first variation yesterday afternoon.  I used KAF bread flour, RedStar instant yeast, and kosher salt.  After the ten minute rest, It took about 20-25 minutes with the hook in the Kitchen Aid to get release from the side of the bowl. I put the dough in a tall plastic pitcher and came back a little under 2.5 hours later to find a huge mass of dough that filled the container. I sliced and proofed the dough, heat the oven, and cooked on a parchment-lined baking sheet for about 16 minutes. The loaves browned nice and tasted great. I kept some of the dough and brought it to the pizza place I work at (I'm 18...) so had access to a real oven and it made an amazing pie.


Also, as per other comments posted, if you were to make a preferment with this, would you need to make any other adjustments with the rising time or anything? I've only recently gotten really into bread so anything is appreciated. Thanks.


-Kevin

davidjm's picture
davidjm

Hey Kevin,


Peter Reinhart has a pre-ferment recipe in his book "bread bakers apprentice."  It starts with a "poolish", which is nothing more than a wet-mixed dough.  You make the poolish the day before you want to bake.  Here's a thumb-nail sketch:


Poolish



  1. 2.5 cups flour

  2. 1.5 cups water

  3. 1/4 tsp yeast


Mix together and let rise overnight in fridge.


Dough



  1. All the poolish

  2. 3 cups flour

  3. 1 3/4 tsp salt

  4. 1.5 tsp instant yeast

  5. 6 tbs up to 3/4 cup flour


You can use this recipe with the instructions above.  I actually am in the proofing stage right now for some Cibatta following this recipe, so I'll post some pics and comments once it's done.


Hope that helps!

davidjm's picture
davidjm

This variation was a big hit!  My family is Italian, so it went well with our meal.


I changed a little from what I posted above.  I substituded 6 tbs of olive oil for the water and added 1tbs of Italian seasoning (the prepackaged stuff).  It had the most delicious smell!  I would reduce the olive oil to max of 4 tbs.  The italian seasoning was just right.  With the extra oil, it turned out a little too soft.  I also would have done the steam to enhance the crust. 


As far as the folding, I folded both like an envelope, but one I turned it over on the flaps (furthest loaf back) and the other I left with the envelope flaps up (closest in).  I think the one I folded back on itself actually rose better in the oven.


Here are some pics:



 


 


 


davidjm's picture
davidjm

I saw that in the Dough recipe, I put "6 tbs up to 3/4 cup flour".  I meant "6 tbs up to 3/4 cup water". 


Sorry for the confusion.


-David

Hoyden's picture
Hoyden

I made this bread today.  It was easier, faster and MUCH better than than the other ciabatta recipe I've tried (Shirley Corriher's).


I'd give the crust, appearance and flavor 5 out of 5.


The crumb was only 3 out of 5 for me, I'm not sure why I didn't get as many beautiful bubbles as everyone else.  I mixed for 30 min on highest speed on my DLX with the roller.  It never crawled, it just started to pull away from the the center of the bowl after 25 minutes.  I figured the gluten was developed since I could stretch an 18" long strand from the bowl.  Did I overdo it?  It tripled in about 2 hours.  My kitchen is on the chilly side and I noticed the final proof on the counter really didn't do much.


This recipe is incredibly gratifying for a novice baker.


eta - I weighed my ingredients

chrisinweare's picture
chrisinweare

They're in the oven now and are looking good. I was a bit unclear on one thing:


When you say to cut the dough into pieces and let it rise, I now realize that I should be cutting it into a long rectangular shape, correct? Otherwise, after I let it rise for 45 minutes, shaping will knock out a lot of the rise that I've achieved...

NorseArcher's picture
NorseArcher

hi, is there a good way to incorporate roasted garlic cloves into this? anything special i need to do? also, is it a total MUST to weigh the ingred. or can i just measure a la Betty Crocker? i'm still pretty new at bread baking and a scale is not an option right now. thanks for any help!

Hoyden's picture
Hoyden

chrisinweare - I don't think you need to cut it into long rectangles because you will stretch the dough into the oblong when you shape it.  


 


norsearcher - I think roasted garlic might work really well - the bread doesn't bake for so long that it would burn the garlic.  Other than that, I'm not sure, it seems like whole cloves of garlic might just sink down since the dough is so slack???  Just try it!  :-)

mattie405's picture
mattie405

I don't know how you would manage to get the roasted garlic to stay in this bread. This is the crumb from some I made tonight. I love this ciabatta, it comes out fantastic everytime I try it. mattie


 

Amberh11's picture
Amberh11

I didn't quite get the air bubbles I was looking for.. I think I put in too much flower. However, the taste of the bread was delish. My husband ate almost the whole batch and made me promise to make it again. Thank you!

pattycakes's picture
pattycakes

I make this bread a lot at home. Last night we tried it at my daughter's house, where there's no mixer and no scale. We mixed it up until the dough looked right then beat it in the bowl for while. Then we put it out on a clean counter and used the French slap and fold kneading method for a long time. The dough really came together! We then put it in an oiled bowl and turned it over and followed the directions for kneading.


It came out great, and we all had a great time doing the slap and fold kneading. We scraped the dough off the low cabinets when we were finished...


I do have one question. I used Giusto's flour, which I had read about on this site, and we were at sea level. I usually bake with KAF and at 7000 ft. I think I didn't let it rise quite enough because I didn't get the huge holes I usually do. But wonder about the lack of crispness in the crust. I steamed (something I normally don't do), but I was baking on a cookie sheet, so I thought I was compensating. Anyone have any ideas?


Thanks!

Dhaus's picture
Dhaus

A decent looking ciabatta that can be made in several hours?  I will be trying this tomorrow.  I love gloopy doughs!LOL


Thanks for the formula and fantastic pics.


Darren

mattie405's picture
mattie405

Jason's Cocodrillo


I've finally learned how to post a picture to this site...........a really big accomplishment for me! Here is my typical result with this recipe. I mix it in a DLX, it takes longer than it would in a KitchenAid but comes out fine. We love this bread for grilled sandwiches, some Rosemary Ham, cheese, roasted tomatoes, a little olive oil then on the grill a few minutes.........mmmmmmm

Hoyden's picture
Hoyden

mattie, your bread looks great and your holes look bigger than what I've been getting. 


 


How long do you mix in the DLX?  I've tried anywhere from 16 to 25 minutes with the roller. . .  . . . do you use the roller or the dough hook?


 


I made some in my mom's ancient kitchen aid last weekend and it was mixed in about 10 minutes.  I didn't dare turn her mixer to max speed because it makes peculiar noises . . . and I had to switch from paddle to dough hook because of the creeping problem.

mattie405's picture
mattie405

Normally I turn the timer to maximum time (12 minutes) twice to get this to come together, I also put the machine at the fastest speed. I haven't tried it with the hook yet, I use the roller and scraper. There have been a few times when it has come together in only 12 minutes but that is rare and it hasn't happened often, there seems to be no ryhme or reason to it either.......same flour, same water etc. Sometimes the crust comes out very thin and others it comes out thicker as in my picture but it always tastes good so I am happy with it.

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

I looked back at the recipe and the reason it didn't turn out is I tried the semolina and he has a range for the water. I used the upper amount. Even after 30 min it was still like watery paste. So for the 1st try of the formula I would not try the 2nd version and would not use the higher water amount.


Mattie yours looks wonderful !! c

mattie405's picture
mattie405

Caroline,


    I can make semolina bread and semolina pasta but everytime I try adding semolina to this recipe it has been a disaster for me. Don't know what I am doing wrong but it nevers comes out as good as it does with just regular flour, I even had problems adding herbs to this.......so now I just stick to the basic recipe because we love it as it is.  mattie

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

I wondered...glad to hear it probably waasn't me !! I think it is the absorption rate of the semolina vs flour. THANK YOU c

mattie405's picture
mattie405

Caroline,


    I have some of this going into the oven in a few minutes, will let you know how it comes out later. I added a little rye to it and it seemed to not make a difference in the dough, seems the same as the original. I also picked up some more semolina tonight and will give the semolina one a try again maybe tomorrow after work.   mattie

Rblome's picture
Rblome

I'm not a precise person when measuring.  But I have made this a dozen times and it always turns out great.  If it is too wet to come together... add a tablespoon at a time of bread flour as it beats on the Kitchen Aid at 4.  As the dough climbs up...I go up to 6.  You have to hold the mixer steady as it really rocks.  But after 20-minutes you have a really sticky blob of dough.  Perfect.  If it starts to settle back off the hook...add another spoonful of bread flour.


I start with two cups of warm water.  Add two teaspoons of yeast.  One teaspoon of salt.  About two and a half cups of bread flour.  Stir it up and let it sit for 10-minutes.  Then start the high speed mixing...after 10-minutes I start adding the extra small amounts of flour till I get the wet window-pane texture I want.  OUt of the mixer and into a bowl I oil it with spray olive oil. To get it to rise...I microwave a cup of water to boiling in the microwave (of course).  Then put the dough into this hot moist sealed oven for an hour to 90-minutes.  After that you just do some folds with the punched down dough...let it rest...cut into loaves...and bake.  This is almost foolproof.

matthewf01's picture
matthewf01

I'm a new young baker, and after becoming increasingly frustrated with my failed boule attempts, I figured I'd go after a more 'low-slung' bread (one that won't piss me off when it doesn't come out a big beautiful TALL loaf!)... I always love the ciabatta rolls my mom always buys from Costco, so I thought I'd take a stab.


 


I did my first attempt totally by the books, using the semolina variation. Came out AWESOME -- after tripling the dough, I had to throw it in the fridge overnight, and I'm not sure if that overnight slow fermentation/retarding did something special (I'm sure it did) but the ciabatta had a DELICIOUS yeasty flavor, a little sour (close to a sourdough!).


 


Baked again this morning (another overnight fermentation in the fridge), but this time I made the following modification-


-semolina version (everything else the same)


-280g bread flour


-70g whole wheat flour


 


More great results! Slightly smaller holes on the loaves pictured (I didn't do that final 'flip them over' step, I put them on parchment to proof and found it way too hard to pull them off. Two other loaves I havent cut into yet, I DID flip, and I was surprised at how much they DID puff back up despite being abused, and they also have some ears!) but just as delicious!


 



 


 


 

avatrx1's picture
avatrx1

AFter your bred tripled, did you punch it down before refrigerating or just put it in tripled?  wouldn't it over-rise that way?


-susie

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

Those are pretty.  Did you adjust the water to compensate for the whole wheat?

bigjoe13's picture
bigjoe13

was i the inly only one? i mixed the dough for at least a half hour, the dough was so watery and sticky it couldnt even work with it, i had to add at least another 2 cups of flour to make the bread workable, my loaf turned out pretty bad, im not sure what i did wrong. any help??

ragreen's picture
ragreen

Sounds like you didn't have your mixer turned up high enough--gotta beat it like it owes you money. It mostly turned out bad because of that two cups of flour you added. Also, you can't "work" this dough in the normal sense.

raccoonandlobster's picture
raccoonandlobster

I made a batch of this bread and the 4 loaves were inhaled so fast that I made a second batch the very same night. At the end of 6 days I had baked 5 batches, and everyone who has gotten some has raved about it. 




 


I found that adding a cup of 100% hydration sourdough starter added a nice bit of depth and complexity to flavor and used up my daily sourdough discard.


 


I wrote about it more extensively with lots more pictures on my blog


http://raccoonandlobster.com/2009/06/23/you-guys-have-got-to-try-this/ http://raccoonandlobster.com/2009/06/29/variations-on-a-theme/


 


Thank you Jason and LilDice!

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Bigjoe13,this is a deliberately high hydration dough that is almost like handling a blob of sticky bubbles. It is mixed so long that every particle of flour is coated with water and gives off its wonderful sticky starch. As it rises, it becomes a moist,marshmallowy blob that is best handled as little as possible and with the assist of a dough knife.It is not like the usual dough that is kneaded and folded by hand and has a velvety,smooth feel.


So,try again and resist the temptation to add more flour than is called for. It should be a glossy,sticky dough that needs to be handled like a mass of soap bubbles-very lightly,with wet hands and as little as possible.


Have fun!

Salome's picture
Salome

I tried the Cocodrillo Ciabatta today. I made half of the batch with some whole wheat flour, the other part I made with semolina.



What to say - a sticky thing! Incredible soft . . . There's a lot left to improve. I couldn't withstand to try some of the bread freshly out of the oven, that's why there's only one semolina loaf.  (to the left.)


It was very tasty while still warm, but I can't say anything about the ciabatta when cooled down. I don't expect huge surprises because it's a straight dough.


I've written more about it on my blog:oventv.wordpress.com (And I posted some more pictures there, too. No crumb shots yet though, the first loaf got eaten by my family and me to fast)


Salome


 

Salome's picture
Salome

Here they are, two shots of the Coccodrillo Ciabatta with whole-wheat instead of Semolina:


 




I made a delicious lunch-sandwich with it, I stuffed it with smoked salmon, some cream cheese which I mixed with horseraddish, and some crunchy lettuce leaves. So soft and light. I'm very satisfied with the crumb. YUM!


Salome

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

If it tastes as good as it looks, it must be a fabulous bread.  Congratulations on your results!


Paul

alliezk's picture
alliezk

Ive had success so far with the first half of the recipe, but my 90 degree summer kitchen is causing the bread to rise ultra fast, hopefully this does not diminish the flavor of the bread!


I mixed it for about 25 minutes on a speed of 6 as well. My only modification of the original recipe was using a little bit of extra water and adding maybe 30grams of wheat germ.

smasty's picture
smasty

I've made this twice now and just love it!  So much easier than using a biga---just a tad less flavorful...most people would never notice.  The flavor and texture always comes out just right. I've found I can almost "pour" the dough out for proofing right into the desired shapes.  I let it proof right on my dusted silestone island and carefully scoop it up with my dough scraper when it's time to put it on parchment.  It's a tricky thing to do, but practice makes perfect! 

Amori's picture
Amori

This recipe is very easy to make, had family over for the weekend the kids 'LOVED' checking on it while  rising in a food grade bucket. Unfortunatelly, it was too wet for me to flip over.  Gorgeous color but bottoms were a bit pale. Not giving up on it though, will try again, thanks so much for posting Amori.

carrtje's picture
carrtje

What a great recipe.  I've been wanting to try ciabatta, and this was a great success.  I'd print a picture, but it looks like everyone else's. 


On a side note, I sliced it about 4 inches wide, then down the center (top separated from bottom) and made grilled cheese sandwiches for our tomato soup.  The kids were a little skeptical until I mentioned that it was Crocodile Bread.  They pouted that we had eaten it all up.

alabubba's picture
alabubba

My own recent adventure with this bread,


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/13519/mission-ciabatta


There are some tips on handling this extremely wet dough as well.

kutzeh's picture
kutzeh

I read a hint a while back and it really works. Spray your paddle or dough hook with


oil and the dough will not climb.

peppy's picture
peppy

I also heard of this tip before.


I would recommend doing this as well to prevent the dough from climbing too much. The bread turns out perfect as well.


 

maggie664's picture
maggie664

I'd given up on succeeding with another recipe but you have renewed my hope that I will finally be able to make a ciabatta loaf. A great effort. M

paintedwall's picture
paintedwall

I was a little bit worried when the dough didn't set up after the first half hour, but amazingly, I let it mix just a bit longer and it set up like magic.


 


I am another positive testimonial for this recipe.  It had everyone in the house raving.

avatrx1's picture
avatrx1

I'was able to successfully make this recipe a few weeks ago, but this time - I was waiting for it "to triple" as emphasized in the directions.  It was getting close but was still about 25% away from triple when it collapsed in the container.


I"m not sure what to do with it now.  I stirred it down and thought about putting some refreshed starter in it tomorrow because it's getting late today.


any suggestions on what went wrong?  It must have taken all of the 30 minutes in the kitchenaid to develop and start to climb the paddle.  actually it was almost 45 minutes.  There were lots of gluten strands when I put it in the oiled container even though it had not 'cleaned' the sides and bottom of the KA.  It had, for the most part, but not like it had on my last batch.


I used high gluten bread flour and followed the directions to the letter.  It's not overly warm in the house.  I did turn on the oven when the dough got close to the 'tripled' size, but that shouldn't have affected it.


Help?


-susie

kutzeh's picture
kutzeh

Made this bread twice, beating the hell out of it and it came out beautifully both times. My old KA held up! Thanks for the hints.

kutzeh's picture
kutzeh

Don't have the proper equiment so I tried to convert from grams to cups and every site had a slightly different amounts.


  Anyone please  Does 500 gr equal 4 c or 4 1/2 c?


Help!

Yumarama's picture
Yumarama

but it is often thought a "cup" of flour is ~4.5 oz or 125 grams. That would be an average.


According to various sources:


Peter Reinhart says 4.5 oz  (127g)
Jeffrey Hamelman says 4.3 oz (123g)
King Arthur says 4.25 oz (120g)
Maggie Glazer says 4.8 oz (136g) - though to her credit she ALWAYS qualifies it as "about X cups..."
Rose Levy Beranbaum says 5.5 oz (157g)
Toba Garrett says 3.8 oz (107g)


And that's just based on the books I happen to have. If your library is different, you'll likely have various other amounts. Some will also say All Purpose and Bread Flour weights are different. Get into whole wheat and rye and you throw in new variances.


So as you can see, there's some wiggle room. And after you've put in "exactly" that much flour, you may still need to "adjust as necessary" anyway to compensate for your particular flour's humidity and water absorption and to get the consistency the recipe wants (tacky, sticky, etc.). Different brands of "bread flour" are not created equal.


As for "does 500g = 4 or 4.5 cups?", that will also depend on your cup-filling technique - i.e. dipping or spooning or sifting - how packed the flour is in the container, etc.. However, going by "a cup is 4.5 oz (127g)", 500 grams = 3.9 cups


But that's just a starting point. Adjust as necessary.


 

kutzeh's picture
kutzeh

Thanks for the info..just as I thought from the sites I visited. You are correct in the ryes and wheats which are heavier. I did use 4/1/4 c in the ciabatta and it worked well. Guess I have to get a scale. Happy "breading" and Thanksgiving.

Elagins's picture
Elagins

not only do ingredient weights vary by type, but also in response to external conditions, e.g., humidity, whether or not they've been sifted, and so on. that's why you generally get the best results using percentages based on weight rather than volume ... although here, again, there's always gonna be some fine-tuning (but far less than when you use cups) involved because of humidity and other factors.

Stan Ginsberg
www.nybakers.com

kutzeh's picture
kutzeh

Thanks, kitchen store..here I come.


Happy Thanksgiving,


Patti

JoPi's picture
JoPi

My converter tells me


500 gr = 17.63 ounces 


I would use a scale to measure the cups. 

kutzeh's picture
kutzeh

so I see all the different measurements  as I also saw, best to get that scale. I did use 4 c last time I made it and it came out very well.


So thanks to all!

jackie9999's picture
jackie9999

I attempted this recipe again after watching the how-to video mentioned in this thread


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/14554/deep-brown-golden-color#comment-91200


I don't have a kitchenaid, but do have a 20 year old siemens kitchen machine that looks exactly like the bosch compact.  I added 70grams of my sourdough discard for flavour and it looks wonderful. It's really quite fun to make :)


Thanks!

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Hi


Here is my loaf. I messed up on the flour as I did a wrong computation but when I added the extra I think it screwed up my crumb. The taste was good. Nice Spring. I did the 450 on temp after 10 minutes.  Transfered with a peel to Stone.


Nice flavor and will try to do a better loaf in few days.





ketpt1's picture
ketpt1

Hello all,


Just tried this one for the third time today.  I added a little whole wheat flour this time.  Thanks for the recipe.  I've tried a few other recipes, but was never satisfied.  This one makes me happy.


Ken



kutzeh's picture
kutzeh

Made Jason's ciabatta and the first try was great. Followed the recipe and it worked like a charm. Second time, I made 2 loaves and it also was great. Thanks - I like fast and easy!

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

I agree outstanding bread my second try with right amount of flour was sooooooo tasty. Outstanding crust and the crumb was full of nice holes with a sweet taste.


 Have to try to get a little larger loaf and not ruin the crumb in doing it. This dough like jelly what a challenge and so scary when you try to pick it up.


Mt. Bob

kutzeh's picture
kutzeh

Today, I'm making a ciabatta variation. I subbed 3/4 c  KA whole wheat, 1 T gluten and 3 T water.


Climbed the hook in 15 min, waiting for it to triple. Hope it comes out holey!


 

kutzeh's picture
kutzeh

 


perhaps someone can help me uoloading a pic. I do it and a box appears with a red dot and no pic..anyone know what I'm doing wrong


thanks


 


Jason's ciabatta/whole wheat

jackie9999's picture
jackie9999

Quote:
perhaps someone can help me uoloading a pic

Perhaps this thread will help:


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/11826/apology

avatrx1's picture
avatrx1

Today I decided to try the semolina version which is now rising getting ready for the final bake in about an hour.


Here is my question:  I mixed together the flour, yeast and water and as usual  - I allow to hydrolyse for at least 10 minutes before adding the salt.  I got side-tracked today and it was almost 30 minutes before I added the salt.  When I began mixing in the mixer it almost  immediately cleaned the sides of the bowl and the bottom.  Less than 5 minutes to be exact.  I did mix it a little longer just in case, but would suppose it did that because of the long hydrolyse prior to the salt addition or because of the semolina version?  I have noticed that holding off on the salt in the beginning does shorten the mixing time in the regular version, but this was amazing!


Does it achieve the same goal as prolonged mixing by allowing it to sit for a longer period of time before adding the salt?


just curious.  Even more curious to see how it turns out.


-susie

Rickoxo's picture
Rickoxo

After not liking the results of BBA's ciabatta the first few times, I poked around and found this recipe. I've tried it now six times, and so far I haven't gotten anywhere nearly the results that folks here have gotten. The first three I finally figured out had to do with using white whole wheat flour. I switched to King Arthur normal flour and had better luck, but still not that great. This batch today is using King Arthur bread flour, but I'm still having some problems.


First, it doesn't specify what kind of yeast. I'm using active dry yeast. Do I need to mix the yeast with water first? My dough has been rising triple no problem, so it seems like the yeast is fine, but I wanted to check.


So question 1, is the goal to get it out of the proofing bowl without completely degassing it. I take it that is part of the goal? I finally started oiling the heck out of the bowl, and one time I used plastic wrap, so I can get it out without degassing, but how important is that?


Question 2, I get the dough divided into three parts, it rises a bit, gets nice and wobbly, but when it comes to the flip and stretch, it seems like it's pretty easy to degas the piece. I typically let it rise on a nicely floured ziploc bag. It makes it easy to flip over and it barely sticks at all. But my pieces are already fairly large and stretching them out any more seems huge. So now I'm wondering if my pieces are too big? I follow the recipe exactly (using a food scale) and split the dough into three pieces. So is it easier to work with quarters rather than thirds?


My stretching out and shaping the pieces seems to degas them pretty completely.Is theree some trick here? How important is it to stretch out the piece? If I just flip and leave it like it is, is that ok or does it need the stretching?


Last question, about using a thermometer to test the doneness of bread. So far I have yet to be able to get the bread up to an internal temperature of 205 without being pretty burnt on the outside. I end up taking it out of the oven around 195-198. I've used a foil cover to try to keep it from getting too brown, but even after 20+ minutes, it's still not 205 inside. Any thoughts?


Thanks for any ideas,


Rick


 


 

crsantil's picture
crsantil

The recipe calls for "instant" yeast A.K.A. "bread machine" yeast.  if you wish to use "active-dry" yeast, then you have to prep the yeast in some warm water with a pinch of flour or sugar.


Ciabatta is characteristic of having an open crumb, that is, irregular cavernous holes throughout the bread.  In order to do this, you:


-must have a high hydration percentage (this just means that there should be a lot of water in the dough).  The more moisture in the bread, the more steam that will develop during baking.


-must not disrupt the bubbles that are forming in the bread.  These bubbles are being generated from the "breathing" yeast.


Helpful tips:


When pouring out of the oiled bowl, just let gravity take the dough out of the bowl.  Pour dough onto a heavily floured layer of plastic wrap.  Cut dough into number of loaves, but DO NOT HANDLE more than a few pushes on the side to shape the dough.  NO STRETCHING is called for.  Let sit 45 min.  Pick up the plastic wrap and flip the dough over onto your pizza peal.  I don't have a pizza peal, so I just use a piece of parchment paper on a baking sheet.  When it comes time to bake on my baking stone, I just slide the dough (parchment paper and all) onto the baking stone.


 


The author claims that flipping the dough over is necessary to redistribute the bubbles so that they're not all at the top.  I cannot confirm the validity of this, but I am too pleased with the results to deviate from the recipe :P


 


Regarding temperature, yes my bread becomes a little dark on the top once 205 is reached, but it is not burnt.  Some recipes call for dropping the temperature down to 450 once the dough is in the oven.  I kept mine at 500.  My only suggestion would be what you have already done:  tent a piece of foil on an upper rack.  However, if you pulled your bread out at ~198, and you're pleased, then no problem!


 


Good luck

crsantil's picture
crsantil

For me, ciabatta is requisite of a good sandwich or tomato caprese.  In this regard, I have always been a slave to Wegmans' bakeries.  But this recipe has made me feel completely autonomous and free from the shackles of bakeries.


 


Tips:


-I poured my dough onto a heavily floured piece of plastic wrap so that i could easily pick it up and flip it over onto my pizza peal.


-For a pizza peal, I just put a piece of parchment paper on a cookie sheet.


 


Critiques:


-My first loaf's crust was much too soft.  It had no integrity and would buckle under the even the light pressure of a bread knife.  So, on my second loaf, I let it sit in the oven for the full 20 minutes (rather than the 17min of the first loaf), and I also poked a one or two vent holes (from my thermometer) at the top.  This allowed the steam to escape and did not soften the crust.  Perfection!

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I would like to make a loaf (many loaves) with only a 2 inch diameter.What's the easiest way to handle the dough? I want to be able to slice these loaves into 1/4 in slices for appetizers.

zeldush's picture
zeldush

I simply added the given amount of water in the recipe of approx. 485gr. but 2 cups are only 424gr acc. to my cups/scale so i guess that was absolutely too much water..... The batter wouldn't turn into anything at all until i added some more semolina and bread flour - hopefully it will work out, still 90 minutes left to the 2.5 hours raising time.... :)


I would really  appreciate your tips / suggestions how much water YOU all used as I definitely would like to make this ciabatta again. From all the photos posted this must be a terrific bread!! TXS

smasty's picture
smasty

Hi There!  I've made this a dozen times and love it. Since I'm in Denver I usually add a few more grams of water than a recipe calls for, the last time I made this I added about 500 grams of water...that was too much.  But it's easy to fix.  For me, if I don't see some structure beginning to build in the dough at 8-10 minutes, I begin to add a tsp of flour every minute.  The most I've ever had to mix this dough was 16 minutes, and usually it's about 14 minutes.  It's a really strange dough to work with.  I usually just "pour" it out onto parchment and that's my loaf shaping.  Unless I have a lot of bubbles on top after proofing, I don't mess with it.  It just goes straight into the oven as is.  It is a fabulous bread...just practice a couple times and you'll get it down.  I made the semolina version this week for the first time, it was great. 


How did yours come out? 

Chuck's picture
Chuck

To some folks from the math and computing worlds, the ~ symbol means the thing to the right is "approximately". The symbol is very simple and quick  ...and unfortunately not always clearly understood. Folks from the world of history typically say ca. or circa. Others may say "about". Don't skip over or move the ~ to something like the incorrect interpretation this means "about 475 grams which is exactly 2 cups"; it really means "exactly 475 grams which is about 2 cups".


(Also, the way I read it, the recipe says 475 grams, not 485 grams.)

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Hi chuck  I agree but it sure is a bear to work with, have done many loaves and never can work with any easy.   I just scrape it out let it sit 45 minutes in bread form . I cut and roll away from original glop, Then transfer to parcment same way. Very good taste and crumb but I find less flour on the mat I like better as I do not taste the raw flour so much and the loaves look better. All baked in a small convection /micr wave oven  in my motor home  a top of 450 temp all it will go.  Now that i am back in the resort can not wait to use a good oven and get a good crust.


Last loaves and left over for Pizza.


 





BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

Bring Pizza!  Yummm!!


With this dough.. how did you build it for pizza.. it's too wet to even spread sauce.. did you pre-bake it for a bit? 

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

There is another whole thread about the recipe as pizza dough. The pictures are gone from here at freshloaf, but there's a link in the op with all the original pics of the process.


Basically, the last of the shaping, then peeling and baking, are all done on parchment.


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/3621/quick-rustic-ciabatta-pizza-recipe-full-howto-pics


Link to the google pictorial:


http://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

I have read that thread, but I was hoping someone made this pizza using this dough and a sauce.  I have done it, but the way I've done it is to pre-bake my dough after shaping it into pizza.  I made three pizza's with this dough, spreading out the dough pretty thinly - then prebaked them for about 4 minutes.  Remove from the oven, the dough is set enough to hold a sauce sauce and ingredients, although too many ingredients would not be ideal for this pizza.  Then I put it back in the oven and finished baking.. just until the cheese was bubbling and starting to brown.  At least I THINK it's how I did it.. we were drinking alot of wine that day.  Hehehe  It does bake really fast though.

earth3rd's picture
earth3rd

Wow that pizza looks good. I'm making the bread right now. Can you save the dough for any length of time? Some one asked if you baked the crust before putting the toppings on, I'm not sure did you? Yum... nice pizza!!

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

Yes, I found I had to prebake a bit to get the sauce on evenly.. not long though.. just enough to set the bread.. about 5 mins if I recall.

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Hmmmmmmm   I wonder now if that was not the problem I had last 2 times I tried this bread. First time was not that bad.


I bought a scale and now started to measure in Grams instead of just a cup or what ever. i beat the H out of it and it still was so soupy that I could not even begin to work with it.  For sure it was like pancake batter . First time was not to bad and i had a good looking loaf considering.  Taste was also very good and the crumb was excellent.


  I am now also thinking water might have been the culprit. Have to try again and add little flour. But again not wsure if that will help as I assume it does not need any more ??? just less water..


  Glad I am not the only one that had a problem.


Have a nice day and good luck


Mr.Bob


 


 

smasty's picture
smasty

Yeah... doing less water would be better than adding more flour...but I think this is a very forgiving dough.  Once you get it down, you'll love it.  I use a scale and weigh in grams for everything.  Pouring water by the gram though cracks me up...I always over shoot it.  :)

earth3rd's picture
earth3rd

You can add and remove water with a teaspoon or any other spoon. I find my teaspoons are around 5 grams!! Just a thought.

zeldush's picture
zeldush

txs bokkay and smasty!


well, the ciabatta did turn out o.k. but not great  - the extra semolina and bread flour made it way too heavy and there were of course hardly any holes in it.... the crust was delicious though and to make a long story short we finished them all off.:)


i think i will add only two cups of water next time and see what happens. though i think the original pre-modified recipe calls even for 550gr of water.


 


so far i had baked only the over night ciabatta with absoluty great results in texture and taste. I will keep you posted.

smasty's picture
smasty

Proper hydration is the key to this bread...you want a very loose slack dough, don't try to stiffen it up too much.  And be sure to let it triple in volume during the bulk ferment...between those two things, you'll get great taste and texture.  Here's my recent blog post showing how I measure the volume growth:


Sue's blog

zeldush's picture
zeldush

that "nothing should happen the first 15 to 20 minutes the mixer is working  the batter..." so I will try to keep that in mind next time and not to panic and start adding more flour....

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Hi 


 Well my post on Nov 28 was what I call not bad. Since then 2-3 batches all seem ok. Last 2 as I mentioned earlier yesterday not good at all. I beat the h out of it with a hook for at least 30+ minutes .


It just would not get more than real bad soup.  It poured out of the bowl like water. 


 It did a triple rise .   Impossible to handle with a little expertise even.  Then no spring in the oven. Like a pancake after it was baked.  Taste was fair looked almost like a flat bread.


Next time well this be 3rd bad batch I will hope for better as I know it is supposed to be ok. Nothing changed in my procedure either way.


Have a nice weekend


Mr. Bob


www.siemann.us 

zeldush's picture
zeldush

that we don't know of - but i am really tempted to go to the kitchen and start all over again this moment - i only hope my KA will be that forgiving..... what is it that so many of you were so successful the first time and some of us here get this soupy batter??? I think I read that Jason Molinari worked with speed 3 or 4 only so obviously it's not a velocity problem either..... :):(


Have a lovely Sunday.


 


 

will slick's picture
will slick

The first time I tried this formula, It came out OK. But the loafs were  flat and I could not get the crust to brown. After some very helpful advice I received from Tlf members I am very happy with this. After I beat up the dough in my K.A. It was still very gooey, with very wet hands I did three folds in the bowl at 45min intervals then rested for 45min. then shaped proofed and baked. Ill try to put the links for my threads here it may help.


Will


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/14554/deep-brown-golden-color

zeldush's picture
zeldush

has anybody ever frozen a ciabatta???? what does it taste like then??? is it still edible??? TXS

jackie9999's picture
jackie9999

I am surprised people are having to beat this this so long. Here is my one loaf method, I've made it a dozen times and it always comes out the same. Huge holes and very tasty.


250g bread flour


238g water


1 tsp yeast


6g salt


70g discarded starter (65%)


Using speed 6 on Cuisinart, beat for 5 minutes with paddle, switch to hook and beat for 5 minutes


Let triple, shape, flip onto stone and bake 500 16 minutes.


I follow the method in the youtube video I linked to above and this ciabatta is a household favorite!

zeldush's picture
zeldush

and i am sure we wouldn't have a problem with it either but the ciabatta in question here is a "NO-STARTER" ciabatta - which obviously makes all the difference.

jackie9999's picture
jackie9999

Quote:
but the ciabatta in question here is a "NO-STARTER" ciabatta - which obviously makes all the difference.

I really don't think the addition of the starter makes a difference to the ciabatta. I add it because it's somewhere to put the discard and I like the sourdough flavor. It still takes 2 1/2 hours to triple, sometimes an hour more, too short a time for the starter to make much difference - but in anycase, it has already formed itself into the required floppy ball after the mixing.


I forgot to mention I autolyse the ingredients for 1/2 hour - I think this relatively simple step makes a big difference in the final outcome.


Anyway, I hope you have better luck with it :)

avatrx1's picture
avatrx1

jacki9999


I just made the ciabatta yesterday using your ingredients and it came out great!  I was impressed.


I had saved it in a text file and for some reason didn't have a link to your post at the time or I would have watched the youtube video you referred to.  I still haven't looked that up yet.


Have you ever tried doubling this recipe?  I used my starter which was  more like an 80%, but it worked out great.  I'm thinking of trying it again today and subbing some olive oil for the water and making pizza crust.  hmmmmmmmmmmm


I'm thrilled that I now have a place for my starter discard.  I did bake it a tad longer than 16 minutes.  more like 19 or 20, but I got a nice rise and great holes.  I also let it autolyse for about 5 minutes before adding the salt, then continued per your recipe.  It cleaned the sides and bottom of the bowl using the paddle, but I did switch to the hook as you suggested.


 


great recipe.  I can't wait to try it again.


Now to watch the youtube video.


-susie

pattycakes's picture
pattycakes

Ciabatta, like all bread, freezes well for short periods. Wrap it well or put in a plastic bag when it is completely cool and freeze. When ready to use, unwrap and put directly in a 350 degree oven until hot and crusty, about 15-20 minutes.


OR, rinse with water all over, pop in a hot oven until crusty, and serve.


You can cut loaves in half first if you are planning on using them for toast, defrost partially in the microwave, then slice and toast.  I've done all of the above, and they all work. I bake a lot, and my freezer is always full of bread.


Patricia

bakerbeau's picture
bakerbeau

Well, Christmas has come and gone.  All that bread baking for the season has left me with a Kitchen Aid in pieces on my dining table, after stripping the gears with WAY too much chocolate sourdough!  Despite my current bread 'handicap', I decided to try this recipe.  I've never made ciabatta, and didn't have high hopes, considering the long beating times needed to make this recipe.  But, low and behold, it can be done!  I used Bertinet's slap and fold method (sort of) mixed with a traditional fold, aided by some oil and a good dough scraper.  I used three folds at 20 minute intervals.  I wish now that I had oiled with olive oil for better flavor, but otherwise, I'm so happy with the results!  So, it's entirely possible to achieve a good ciabatta without your mixer!  Yay!  This will be my bread of choice for the week while I wait for my new gears to arrive in the mail :)


 


earth3rd's picture
earth3rd

That looks pretty darn good to me. I'm in the process of making the Ciabatta at the moment. Considering I had it beating at 3 on my KA for 35 min. yours looks real good concidering you did it by hand. Hope mine looks as good!!!

jackie9999's picture
jackie9999

Glad you had success susie!


I've never doubled the recipe, in fact I think my recipe is 1/2 of the original..it makes one loaf that the two of us can finish in a day.


I always autolyse without the salt. I read some posts here on the effect of the salt on the yeast..it isn't pretty. I measure out the salt and sit it on top of the covered dough so that I don't forget to add it right before mixing.


As for the making pizza with it, I did try it once, but, as much as I like a thick crust, it was TOO much crust, even for me... so I always make jmonkeys sourdough pizza but I use bread flour and all my discard and it turns out perfect...1/2 his recipe makes a nice size 14"x16" pizza.

avatrx1's picture
avatrx1

Funny that you mentioned you measure out your salt and set it on your dough.  I do the same thing.  I forgot to add it once to a recipe and it was awful.  My dogs liked it, but I didn't even think it was good enough for breadcrumbs.


I just mixed up another batch of your recipe and added some olive oil.  at first I just measured in a little olive oil and filled the remaining amount with water, but the dough seemed to stiff.  so - I added back in enough water to get it the right consistency.


ON the pizza dough recipe. You said you use all of your discard? Approx how much is that? sometimes I seem to have alot.  I'm not quite sure how to interpret his recipe.  It gives you the 'formula" in percentages, but then gives you actual amounts in the ingredients.  I guess I'm not experienced enough to read the percentage recipes correctly.  My logical side wants to add up the % to achieve 100% which the formula doesn't do.  maybe I don't understand what his 'formula' is supposed to be?


-susie

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

Ignore the formula and just use the ingredients in the amounts listed. (I'm talking about the jmonkey sourdough pizza). You will end up with about 3 lbs of pizza dough.


The formula is for those who want or need to make a precise quantity of dough; more or less, than the listed recipe makes.

jackie9999's picture
jackie9999

I never tried adding Olive Oil ...but then I do use quite a bit in the container I let it rise in.


I added the pizza recipe I use here


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15805/my-take-jmonkeys-sourdough-pizza

DarkNova's picture
DarkNova

I made this ciabatta this weekend and it turned out wonderfully -- huge holes, very moist, great thin crust...but I thought the flavor was a little lacking compared to other ciabatta I've made (Hamelman's Bread) that use a pre-ferment. Has anyone tried using a pre-ferment with this recipe that they'd like to share? Thanks.

Edith Pilaf's picture
Edith Pilaf

I used 150g each of the flour and water, plus 1/8 tsp instant yeast to make a poolish the night before, and just reduced by similar amounts from the finished dough.  It was very good.  I guess the whole point of this particular recipe is that it is made in one day with pretty good results, hence the "Quick...Ciabatta Bread" title.  There are plenty of other recipes out there with pre-ferments.

earth3rd's picture
earth3rd

Just look back a few spaces... this is getting to be a marathon type thread.

pattycakes's picture
pattycakes

I added a big glob of high hydration sourdough starter to this recipe and added a little more flour and followed the recipe as is otherwise. It came out great. (You could always make the starter in the proportions of the flour/water in the recipe if you wanted to be precise.)


Patricia

ragreen's picture
ragreen

I really don't want to wade through all these posts looking, but has anyone tried a large batch... say, with a floor mixer, maybe 10-20X as much?


 

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

I had heard that that a bakery in California does a large order like that. I just wonder why you cannot iterpolate.  Let up know how many loaves you want and ??? some one will give you the figures I am sure.  Wow thats a lot of slop to handle. Have to say good luck.


Mr. Bob

cheesecake man's picture
cheesecake man

Ragreen


I regularly make a batch of 20 loaves at a time and I use the bakers % method for measurement.  Yes it is a lot of slop - be  careful it will run off your work bench- but it sure is good!  It is my customers favorite!


Rick

ragreen's picture
ragreen

lol... I've already had the experience of it seeking lower ground, it's like working with The Blob.

earth3rd's picture
earth3rd

I'm sure glad to hear that!!!

herculeorama's picture
herculeorama

Hi


I read all the psots here and decided to use Variation 1 recipe. Since I did not have a Kitchen Aid I experimented using bread machine. My machine has a dough cycle which lasts 90 minutes of which 30 minutes are when the dough is built and 60 is the rest period. What I did was to remove the dough after 30 minutes and let is triple in size in a plastic container for abot 3 hours. Following that it was all easy and it turned out very nice. Evenly distributed large air pockets. Good crust.


 


Thanks for the quick recipe.


 


 

AlChemist's picture
AlChemist

After a long search on many sites, and some failed attempts, I happened on this site and decided to try again.  Bottom line was 2 beautiful loaves with wonderful HOLES all through; truly a first.


I'll skip all the details except for ones that may help another seeker.


-  Weighing the ingredients is the way to go.  Used generic bread flour


-  Never heard of "instant yeast" so used regular dry.  Followed someone's suggestion of dissolving yeast in lukewarm water with a small pinch of sugar for 1/2 hour.


- Started with half batch of Jason's recipe (tired of eating failed experiments!)


-  Only have an older bread machine so used manual setting for 15 minutes.  One key point needs to be stressed.  When you have the lump right, you know it.  it's really sticky and glue-y.


-  I was expecting to wait the 2 1/2 hours for it to triple, but in 1 hour it was at the top of the container - nearly 4x the original, so I decided to go ahead.


-  Don't know what either peel or stones or parchment are yet, so used a cookie sheet with flour; worked fine.


Awesome bread........


Thanks to all who posted; especially the detail people.  I obviously have a lot to learn including scoring the bread.  In time......

avatrx1's picture
avatrx1

I've made this recipe numerous times but I've tweaked it a little to save wear and tear on my KA.


I've started using the already varied form of this by adding some sourdough starter.  Here is the basic recipe:


250g bread flour


1 tsp yeast


238g water


70g discard starter (works more for flavor than effect)


6g salt


 


Now for the 'tweaks":


sub 30g of good olive oil for some of the water.


Add 2-3 T of chopped fresh rosemary.


DON'T ADD THE SALT INITIALLY


I've found - in my experience ' that if you mix all of the ingredients EXCEPT THE SALT -with the paddle for a minute or so - let it autolyse for approx 10-15 minutes, then add the salt and mix some more - the time spent using the mixer is cut WAY down. Usually under 5-7 minutes.


I'm not sure why this works, but I've made it at least 10 times and it works every time.  The Rosemary gives it a Wonderful flavor!


The other thing I do that helps is to put the dough on parchment paper and before putting in the oven - mist the parchment paper all around the dough. Then put parchment and all on hot baking stone.  This seems to create the needed steam which helps the oven spring.


YUM!  hope this works for you.


-susie

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Original recipe but I added about a 1/2 teaspoon of caraway seeds. What a flavor. I beat the heck out of it with my KA a new pro. It wanted to jump off the counter at the end.  Nice crust and crumb.  It was baked in a LaCloche clay baker.


I slid the loaf onto a piece of parchment then transfered to a peel.


 I then dropped it in the already hot Lacloche at 500 degrees.  Be careful thats the tricky part not to get burned.  Baked for 10 minutes took the lid off and baked for another 10 minutes. Cooled for about 35 minutes and below is one loaf and the balance of the other I ate. Soooooooooooooo  tasty.


Mr Bob


Ciabatta

scottv's picture
scottv

I halved the master recipe but otherwise followed it completely.
Notice I did not get a nice color and the bread was quite soft and no hard crust.


Any ideas of what I did wrong?  Comments?


Here are pics of my attempt.. I didn't quite get the "spring" that I was hoping for.



 


 


cheesecake man's picture
cheesecake man

scottv,


Explain the steps you used in your preparation and baking in order for someone to give advice. 


Rick

ragreen's picture
ragreen

Yeah, I'd surely agree with that... looks to me, to begin with, the dough may not have been allowed to triple or the yeast was dead... the misshapen loaf is either uneven cooking or bad shaping. More input needed!

ragreen's picture
ragreen

OK, first let me say I love this stuff. That being said, I'm trying to tweak it to what I want. I must say that I pretty much follow this recipe to the last detail, the only subjective thing is the perception of when kneading is "finished." I knead until the dough cleans from the bottom except for a spot about the size of a half dollar (remember those?). I put it on a stone, and bake it at 500F. At seven minutes, I give it a spin and turn the temp down to 400. It also has steam introduced at the very start.


Now, the differences... directly on the stone, it reaches an internal temp of 205 about eight minutes in, shortly after I turn it. The crust is way too pale, so I cook it a couple more minutes until it's the right color. This results in an internal temp of 212. The problem is, the crust is still soft, but so is the structure. It's one of those "start to cut the crust and crush the bread" kind of things. Would just overall longer cooking at a lower temp fix this with maybe more structural strength?

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

"...Bake at 500F until they are 205F in the center (about 15-20 minutes), rotating 180 degrees half way through..."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v24OBsYsR-A

ragreen's picture
ragreen

Not sure what your point is there, like I said, unless it's my turning down the oven to 400F' they reach 205 in about 7 minutes... nice video, no answer.

Barmy's picture
Barmy

I love this recipe but I have tweaked it. I use unbleached bread flour (13% protein) and add 10g of gluten and an extra 20ml of water.  It takes me longer to get the beautiful silky dough that leaves the bottom of the bowl but I get a more stable dough.  I can move it around better without it losing all those magical air bubbles.  When I baked without the gluten, more often than not, I would end up with deflated, tough loaves.  Now, I get beautiful loaves that everyone raves about.


I have a question for those who have used a sourdough starter for this recipe.  I have a 1:1 wild starter that I cultured in my kitchen about six months ago.  I have tried several ways to introduce sourdough to this recipe but always seem to end up with dense, inedible loaves that I make bread crumbs out of.  I would be grateful if someone could give me a tip on how I can make this into a sourdough ciabatta as well.

ragreen's picture
ragreen

How does your culture work for regular sourdough breads? How long does it take to rise? You might need to take some of that stuff into consideration. I have two distinctly different strains, one takes about three times as long as the other to rise the same recipe in more or less identical conditions.

Barmy's picture
Barmy

It's probably me but it's quite inconsistent.  Maybe it's not active enough when I use it.  I only feed it once a week and it lives in the fridge.  When I want to use it, I tip half out, feed it 1:1 then let it sit overnight till it's nice and bubbly in the morning.  I take out what I need, feed it again, wait and then use it in my recipe. It work's great in Dan Lepard's Barm Bread, but that's not all sourdough.  Would you have a rough amount that you would substitute with the yeast so I can try it out?

Barmy's picture
Barmy

I have just been successful!!  YAY!!  I took half a cup of discard added 50g flour and 50 g water, to take it up to about 1 cup of starter.  I left it for a few hours until it was 1 1/2 cups.  I weighed the starter and adjusted the water and flour (which I haven't done before, just guessed).  The loaves have come out a little flatter than my normal but airy and tasty.  After the second rise they were much stickier than the normal and were hard to flip over and I think they lost some air.  Might try not flipping next time and see what happens.

Barmy's picture
Barmy

Made another batch on the weekend after reading RLB's Bread Bible.  She says to substitute the yeast with 30% sourdough and gives a calculation.  I still ended up with flat loaves but with lovely holes and excellent flavour.

LauraB's picture
LauraB

All was going well - my bread machine lets you do an entire manual program so I went with a 5 minute initial mix followed by a 20 minute knead cycle, then poured the whole lot into a bowl. I was dragged out to 'assist' mum with the grocery shopping, and eventually dragged her home again 3 1/2 hours later half expecting to find disaster waiting for me. Instead - a nice looking dough (if one can call it that - it still looked like batter to me!)


Cut, floured and put onto a board, then an hour later shaped and threw into the (electric) oven. And five minutes into my baking, a bloody possum zapped himself on the power lines and blacked out the entire area. I'm devastated... I've never had success with ciabatta (mine have always resembled scottv's) and these looked like they were going to be just beautiful. I had a fantastic homemade vegie stew ready to go with them and now I just have to have my regular bread with it. Wish me better luck with my next attempt!

herculeorama's picture
herculeorama

It was none of your fault. I am sure next time you make the same recipe it will turn out excellent. Good luck!


 

plwailer's picture
plwailer

Living in a community with less than 300 people and having no grocery store, I try to make everything from scratch. I have been looking for a ciabbata bread recipe for months and others seem so time consuming and laborous. When I came upon this I had to try it and when I did I and my family loved it! Simple, easy and pretty fast. I passed this recipe on to others and they also rave about it. Excellent recipe, as well as this website. Thanks so much.



JeannieTay's picture
JeannieTay


Delicious with chilli! This is so addictive!

irene111's picture
irene111

I made this bread today, and it turned out great!  I was wondering if it would also work with a longer rise in the refrigerator while I'm at work (8-10 hours).  Would I need to decrease the yeast?


Thanks for any ideas!

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Hello Irene


Well I said I would try the refrigeration for you. I Mixed the dough yeaterday and let it rise in the refrigerator for about 20 hours.  After about 6 hours I noticed it had rose about 1/3 and was slow the rest of the rise and stopped some time in the early am. This am about 6 or so I took it out of the refrigerator and noticed it had trippled about . It had some yeast bubbles.


I dumped it out on a mat with a little flour and cut it into 3 pieces.  Water keeps the plastic cutter from sticking. Cranked the oven up to 525 most this one will go.  I also started the microwave convection oven and stuck a Clay LaCloche in to pre heat. Most it will pre heat to is 450.


The bread I rolled very easily in about 45 minutes to a hour onto parchment paper and then slid onto a Pizza Peel parchment paper and all.  Then slid on lowest rack of the oven onto a stone at 500 degrees. I turned both loaves in 10 minutes but maintained 500 degrees. .  They were nice and brown looking in 20 minutes so I never checked the temp.


I misted both with water 3 minutes apart. They came out very good. Nice crust and a delicious crumb. Not sure if the taste is much better but I did the refrigeration thing to see if it would work for you and I can say that I see no problem.


Now the one in the convection/microwave has a lot to be desired.  I do not think 450 was hot enough. The internal temp was 205 in 20 miinutes. I took the cover off in 15 minutes but dough not so hot.  Toasted ok but not a good crumb doughy tasting like not baked enough. . I will try it again but will  bake another 5-10 minutes longer and see if my loaf will be any better. I have never made a good loaf of bread in this convection micrwave oven. Couple pix below I hope I helped a little .


I cut in 4 pieces each loaf and freeze. They make such a good sandwich. Cut smaller right away and delicious to dip in good olive oil, with or with out red vinigar and a crushed pepper.


Have a nice day


Mr.Bob



 


 


.

jackie9999's picture
jackie9999

Thank you bobkay1022 ...nice description. I'm tempted to go this route myself next time. It's interesting about the 450 degree not being enough though..my last try at this bread was pretty dismal, didn't rise much, but my oven is giving me problems and I think the temperature is off...your post pretty much confirms what I was thinking - 500 is the lowest you can go, I suspect my oven is off by 50, so the 450 I was using resulted in a flat loaf.


Thanks again!

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Hmmmmmm   Very good question.  I have done this bread now many times but have not tried the refrigerator to slow down the first rise. I also wonder if that would work and  if it will improve the taste considerable.


I think I will try it if you do not get any posts and see if it will work.  its a bear to work with but I have now managed with the help of parchment paper and a pizza peel to get a pretty good loaf. Also in a french bread pan it does a nice spring.


Have a nice day


Bob


www.siemann.us

jweissmn's picture
jweissmn

I let it triple first, then put it in the fridge until I came home from work.  Let it warm up for an hour, poured it out and made loaves, let them rise for 45 minutes, and all was well.  Baked up better and tastier than my previous no-fridge attempt.


Next time I'll try refigerating without tripling first.

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

  Hi
Well I am not sure if your temp is the reason for the flat loaf. I am sure some one will pop in and give you a idea also. I am a complete novice compared to lot of the folks on here.  I do not trust my oven even though it is new so I have a external temp guage I put in the oven. Cheap investment.

   I noticed that the post said 500 for ten minutes and 450 for 10 min.  I have never lowered it to 450 not that it would not be ok.

   If you look at a few of the photos you will see that others have a flat loaf also. They also make a nice sandwich.  I have had that also some time ago and not sure what I did wrong. I think it might have been how i handled it not sure. It is awful to work with until you get the hang of it. I never have been able to pick it up and move it.

     In my coach i have the micr/conv. oven and it is useless for bread. I have to find a recipe that is under 450 and try it. I threw out so many loaves. Birds love it.

     Well good luck and I am sure if you ask you will get a real pro. that will give you some info on the temp.  You might do as i do crank the oven wide open and then set it back to the temp you want. i loose quickly when i open the door.

    Mr. Bob
www.siemann.us

Newfieguy's picture
Newfieguy

 


 


Wow that looks awesome!


Do you think it would work out using wheat flour?


 


newfieguy

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Hi


Strange I bought a bag of wheat flour yesterday and was thinking of trying it .  Since I have talked to you 2 more batches of the bread.


I have both times put it in the refrigerator and let it do its thing. 18 plus hours.  It looks like it will never make a good loaf.


I scrape it out on a mat.  I devide into 3 sections that resemble a loaf.  Smile


I spray with oil and use a large salt shaker to flour with.


I start the oven at 525 most mine will go.   45 minutes to 1 hour, I now cut 3 pieces of parchment paper and roll the logs/loaves onto each piece.  They will be so sloppy so be careful. Just flour your hands and move the paper up to the loaf and roll it over 1/2 roll only to get the nice holes. Then slide onto the peel.


I use the  pizza peel for two loaves to slide them onto the stone on lower shelf. One loaf I put on the second shelf same way I have a second pizza stone.  


 I close the door wait 3 min spray sides with water 3 more min spray again and lower temp to 500.  I turn end for end 8-10 minutes.  They will burn a little on lower shelf on the bottom but so tasty.


Oh such a delicious taste and the crust is soooooo chewey.  I feel the taste is from letting it sit over night in the refrigerator covered with plastic in a oiled bowl.


So hope that helps will try a little wheat flour next and let you know. But I have to get this out of my system first. lol


Have a nice day I think I repeated my self a little on this post but I was so excited to get such a tasty loaves could not help my self.


Mr. Bob


www.siemann.us

Newfieguy's picture
Newfieguy

I have aways read you have to let the dough rise in a warmer place to make it the biggest possible.  How does putting it in a fridge help make it rise?  I would figure that would kill the rise no?


 


Just curious why you put it in the fridge for 18 hours.


Also why did you spray the sides with water?  Make the outside soft?


 


Thanks!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Many times done to lengthen the rise time and to make handling easier.  A dough will stiffen up when cooled (unless it is an expired poolish.)  The higher the protein in the flour though, the more punishment it takes. 


I would be tempted to do the same, I like longer wet dough times.

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Newfieguy's picture
Newfieguy

I love this recipe and I make it once a week at least.  The bread has ALWAYS turned out perfect. 


WEll this week I ran out of bread flour!  I grind my own WW so I dumped in what little left I had in the bag as I still have no idea how to make bread flour - any suggestions I am all ears so I wound up with about only 100g of bread flour and the rest WW freshly ground.



FIrst thing I noticed was that the gloop would not pull from the sides at all.  I beat the heck out of it for a good 30 minutes and eventually just said to heck with it.  I let it rise for a few hours but the nice songy wobbly goop that normally is left when I pour it out all came out in a chunk and it was almost a loaf right there. 


I am about to bung it in the oven once I hit temperature but I did not get the right rise for sure and it is much more solid and regular loaf like rather than ciabatta!  Oh well!  A science experiment if nothing else.


Technically if you took the recipe above and switched over WW for the Bread flour, in the dough's brain what are we doing to it to make it more loaf like?


Can not wait to see what it turns out like!


 


Newfieguy

Newfieguy's picture
Newfieguy

This turned out to be one of the best loaves I have ever made!  Did not have the spread out bubbles but still had a great crust, whole wheat taste to it, more dense of a loaf but it turned out great!


Alll the flexability of grain to those who do not know what they are doing with it!


 


hehe

evastanger's picture
evastanger

I made 2 batches os ciabatta today: Jason's quick version with a bit of whole wheat flour substituted for the white flour and one with poolish. Both turned out great. The quick ciabatta was more difficult to handle, it was wetter, but the flavor, crumb and crust were excellent.  The poolish version was easier to handle and it colored prettier, but it was excellent as well.  Will be making both in the future!


 

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

Made Ciabatta recipe #1 today.. it blew us all away.  I'm trying so hard not to devour the entire batch!  Tons of holes and a gorgeous, moist crumb with a beautiful chew.  This is a most excellent recipe. 


I used my new mixer the Electrolux Assistent and mixed it the entire way with the roller and scraper.  I used the entire timer just once - about 12 minutes and I used the highest speed throughout.  Its interesting to watch this dough transform from a doughy wet mess to a silky smooth and gorgeous dough at the end.  It was very impressive.  I didn't see the point in mixing any further.  It was trying to climb up the roller, but at the end of 12 minutes, I figured it was enough. 


I did not add my salt until after the first 10 minute rest.  I used instant yeast and bread flour.  Everything was excellent.. and a great way to break in my new mixer.  Thanks for sharing.  My husband wants to do grilled burgers tomorrow with avocado.. so it looks like I'll be making more ciabatta for the buns.  Yum!

mattie405's picture
mattie405

I have yet to try making these in my KitchenAid, just because they come out so well in the DLX. I keep telling myself to get the KitchenAid down off the shelf and give it a try but then my sensible side says why bother when they come out so good with the DLX. I originally thought it wouldn't work in the DLX but then again why wouldn't it. Mattie

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

That was the only question I had, how long to mix it up in the DLX.  It was really the first time I had used it for bread.  Loved that I could just use the roller and scraper on it.  I gave it 12 minutes, or one full turn on the timer and it looked good enough to bake just as it was.  It turned out perfectly with gorgeous holes and substance, so I was quite happy with it.

Frequent Flyer's picture
Frequent Flyer

It is a lot of fun making this bread.  I make it occassionally as we primarily eat whole grain breads, but when guests come over, I pull out this recipe.  On two occassions I have included bacon in this recipe. 


Yesterday I experimented with reducing the hydration a little (from 95% to 90%).  It may have been my imagination, but it seemed to handle a little better.


BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

Hmmm.. that would have been the last thing I would have thought of adding! 

If your pictures are any indication of the result of lesser hydration, I like it.  Looks beautiful.  How much water then did you use? 

Frequent Flyer's picture
Frequent Flyer

I added 90% of the 500 g of flour.  I really doubt that small a change was that noticeable, however, I didn't want to go less at this time. 


The loaf above was sliced on a bias, giving the impression that it's a thicker loaf than it really is, although it is thicker than previous attempts at this bread.


It's likely the dough was easier to handle because I did not shape the loaves right after dividing the dough as I usually do.  After re-reading Jason's directions, i just folded the dough into 3 lumps and let them spread a little and rise.  The shaping came after doing the "stretch and flop" onto the parchment.


A friend of mine cures his own bacon and had given me a block of it unsliced.  I cubed it, fried it a little and mixed it in at the end of the mixing cycle.  It was very good.

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

What an overnight fermentation would do for this?  One day I'll have to try it! 


Curious if your bacon would sink during the final rest period?  My dough is so wet that if I added a pea, I feel it would sink to the bottom.


Thanks for replying.  Fun to hear what others are doing with their loaves.

Frequent Flyer's picture
Frequent Flyer

I know what you mean.  The proofed dough is like heavy water.  I was surprised at how well the bacon was distributed. Perhaps flipping the loaves helped suspend the bacon.

Frequent Flyer's picture
Frequent Flyer

oops

Alfie's picture
Alfie

Forgot to do the rest after combining ingredients.  I then kneaded it too slowly with a dough hook for 40 minutes.   It didn't do anything.  Then I let it rest for 15 minutes and then beat at high speed until it pulled away from the bowl.  There 3 speeds on a Globe mixer.  With all the mistakes it still came out nicely. 


It is rare that I can make this many mistakes and still be forgiven.


 


 

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

Alfie, I laughed out loud at your description - sounds like something I've done in the past.  Glad it came out just fine. 

chefkill's picture
chefkill

first try was pretty good. It was a bit too chewy and moist inside. looking for a dryer interior. please help.


Formula was followed to a T using KA BF.

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

The interior and tooth shattering crips exterior with the moist and chewy crumb are what is so appealing to me!  Try a different flour, more flour, longer bake at lower temp.. Personally, I would find something else that would better suit what you like.  Maybe a focaccia?

chefkill's picture
chefkill

thanks for the input

bakelove1235's picture
bakelove1235

I made this the other day, and we all loved it. I ended up dividing it into two large loaves and that worked well for me.  The ciabatta is all gone, but I snagged some end remenants for some garlic and rosemary croutons.  Thanks for the recipe it is fantastic.  Does anyone know where I can buy a large rectangle bread stone....or something similar to online? 


Here are some photos of the ciabatta bread:



 



 




Just thought it was an interesting shot with the sky and light..hehe


 

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

Great shots.. really highlights the transparency and creamy crumb!  Beautiful loaves. 


I have a large square stone and for the life of me, I can't remember where I got it, but I've had it for about 8 years and it has never cracked.  My husband is certain we bought it at a factory outlet mall at one of those kitchen stores.  I see Amazon has them for about $36, but my sister bought a FibraMent stone for her new oven and can't stop talking about it. SHe says it fits really well in her oven.  You can order them in a variety of sizes and she says its about 3/4 of an inch thick.. which is kind of what mine is too.


www.bakingstone.com

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

There are many, many places online to buy baking stones. There are also many threads(search box) here on about everything you want to know about baking stones.


If you do any kind of serious bread and pizza baking, get a stone that is at least 1/2" thick. Preferably a little thicker.


I have been getting excellent results with my 5/8" thick cordierite stone from nybakers.com.


Amazon has an economical 1/2" thick, well recommended Old Stone Oven model.


For more heavy duty, and expensive stones, check the Fibrament stones at breadtopia.com or direct from Fibrament at bakingstone.com.


Also, most online restaurant supply stores have various selections of stones.


One last, and most economical possibility is the simple unglazed quarry tile from stores like Home Depot, etc. These tiles can be very hard to find, however.

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

GMTA Frost! 


I think that's what my stone is.. the Old Stone one.  I've had it for years, but I'm thinking of getting the Fibrament like my sister has.  They aren't really that much more when considering they are very thick and you can get them in a wide variety of sizes.  She just bought a new Viking oven and range.. so it's wider than mine and she wanted a stone to fit..


 

rachellegreen's picture
rachellegreen

Hello I am new to making ciabatta and I am making this recipe by hand. I put in my flour,water,yeast and salt and stirred it and my dough is not nearly as wet as the other posters experience. My question is should I continue to stir in intrivals even though my mixture has come together so quickly? I even added more water to make the dough softer. Opinions please. Thanks!

jackie9999's picture
jackie9999

I can only suggest you check your measurements - are you going by weight? This concoction is so wet you can't even touch it :)

rachellegreen's picture
rachellegreen

I had to convert the recipe since I do not have a scale so based upon conversion calculators I mixed the following:


4 cups flour


2 cups water


2 tsp yeast


3 tsp salt


 


It came out like a kneadable dough is the conversion wrong?

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

This dough has a 95% hydration (approximately), your conversion yields a 50% hydration.  If you look at the original recipe, it says 500 grams of flour and 475 grams of water. That's closer to 95%.  When you converted, you used the 2 cups of water to 4 cups of flour.


Invest in a scale to get consistent results in your bread baking.. they are $25 or less on Amazon.  Good luck!

leucadian's picture
leucadian

I'm sure you know this, but 4C flour and 2C water is not 50% hydration, since they are volume measurements. I use a conversion factor for flour of 140g/C, and it could be as high as 150g/C. The latter conversion would yield (4C * 150g = 600g) 600g of flour, with 455g (2C = 1 lb = 455g) of water, and a hydration of 76%, which is wet but not ciabbata-like.  


The advice to use weights is a good one, since volume measurements of flour are inconsistent, especially from one baker to another.


Also, some flours absorb more water than others, changing the feel of the dough even with the same hydration levels.

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

I must have had brain fizzle.. thanks for correcting. The proper hydration is 95%, however.. no matter how much flour you use.  I just couldn't do it without a scale though.. it was the best investment I've ever made!

Chuck's picture
Chuck

Quote:
is the conversion wrong?

The problem is not that the conversion is "right" or "wrong"  ...because there is no such thing.


Despite what conversion websites would like you to believe, conversion from weight to volume (or volume to weight) is always approximate; there's nothing you can do about it (except get a scale:-).

Kitchen Barbarian's picture
Kitchen Barbarian

The thing with flour is that it tends to pack down.  Depending on how you handle it, it will pack either more or less into a cup than someone else.


So maybe when YOU scoop some flour out of the bag, a cup will weigh 150 g.


But then I come along and I stir the flour and fluff it up, then I scoop, and my cup of flour weighs 130 g


Then someone else comes along, hauls the flour out, sifts it into a measuring cup, levels that off, and his cup of flour weighs 100g


So maybe you say hmm, I'll try to measure my flour out like Zen does, so you fluff up the flour, scoop up a cup, and your cup of flour now weighs 138 g.  So you do it again and the second cup weighs 142 g.  Your third cup of fluffed flour ends up weighing 118 g.  There's no consistency there.


This is because the flour packs in differently every time we try to do this.  Sifting the flour first helps but still doesn't give us reliable amounts.  In a "fluffy" cup full of flour, some of that space is basically taken up by air.  In a packed cup of flour, the flour has been pushed together so there are more flour molecules where there were air molecules before. 


I'm sorry if this sounds dumb. But I know a lot of people have trouble understanding why weighing versus volume measurement makes such a huge difference in baking bread.


For a practical demonstration, sift some flour into a cup, then level it off.


Now take the cup and tap the bottom gently on the counter a couple of times.  See how the flour settles?  If you keep tapping, it will settle more and more with each tap.  You are "packing" the flour, essentially.  You could end up with 3/4 c of flour when you started with a full cup, just because of settling/packing.


We're used to baking cookes and cakes using volume measure and 9 times out of ten they come out just fine, even great.  But cookies and many cakes are very forgiving.  You can fiddle around with amounts quite a bit without seriously affecting the end product.


Bread's not that way though. It's kind of persnickerty about proportions.  So if you WEIGH your ingredients, you can get around the whole issue of how much has the flour settled, and get an accurate repeatable way to make bread.


 


Hope that made sense.  I'm typing at 3:30 in the morning, so hoping it makes sense is about all I can do, LOL!

bakelove1235's picture
bakelove1235

Thanks for all the advice and information on the baking stones.  I was looking at buying one from FibraMent, because everyone seems to love and rave about them.  I am making this bread again tomorrow...for my honey who is coming from Germany for a visit.  It will go with some pumpkin soup and some sort of salad, I have not worked out yet.  Have a great day everyone. : - )

Maeve's picture
Maeve

I love my Fibrament stone.  I've had it for more than five years now.


 


This ciabatta recipe is really good and easy!  I made some very slight changes - I used the Semolina version, but don't have semolina, so substituted white whole wheat and a litte ground flax meal.


 


I used:


350 grams King Arthur bread flour


145 grams white whole wheat


5 grams flax meal


480 grams filtered water


15 grams salt


2 tsp instant yeast


 


And followed the instructions.  Just make sure the flax meal doesn't sink to the bottom while it's kneading.  I've taken this bread to a supper with friends and to my knit along night and it's gotten rave reviews.  And it keeps well to the next day too.

Schroomer's picture
Schroomer

Greetings all...this is my first post although I have been lurking and praising the collective wisdom of the group. To anyone planning on trying this recipe, DO NOT HESITATE. I have been making bread for 15 years and I think this is my new favorite. I couple notes:




  • Used KAF

  • 10 minute rest then speed 6 on my KA. Added salt after rest period. Motor changed pitch at 5 minutes, and again at 8 minutes when the mass started to lift off the bottom. I stopped at 10 minutes. Need to bolt my KA to the counter (lol - you'l find out why).

  • Proofed 2.5 hrs at 75 degrees in my dehydrator. 

  • Placed on heavily floured board and cut into 4 pieces. Liberal with the flour on top. Dough spread as it rose over the next 45 minutes. 

  • Did not stretch. Just slid my scraper under and rolled it over onto parchment.

  • Baked in a 500 degree oven on stone w/o any steam. Did two loaves at a time. First two (inc. the cut one) 10 minutes at 500 10 minutes at 450. Last two (you can see the darker color) full 20 minutes at 500 degrees.


Here's what mine look like. Can't wait to see yours. Thanks to the original poster and developers of this recipe.




Schroomer's picture
Schroomer

Now that I've got it figured out here are my pics from today's effort.


kisgabi's picture
kisgabi

Made this ciabatta on saturday for the first time. Never thought it would work for a beginner but the easy recipe convinced me to try. was wonderful, although I realised halfway, I only had half the necessary strong flour and used plain for the rest. (tried the semolina version). We were delighted with the results.


AND THEN!!!!


Made it today with proper strong flour (00 italian)  and thought I am doing the right thing.


I did everything else the way I did before. I saw after 10 minutes of dough hook action that something's wrong. it didn't get together, the dough did not come off the wall of bowl, eventually stopped and let it rise, wich it did, then all of a sudden it collapsed. Saw that it was still bubbling, so waited to see whether it would come back but it didnt. Baked it anyway and it is like dried glue, crumb is terrible


any idea anyone what is the problem here?


next time will do the same as first time, half strong, half plain flour.


 

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

All "00" not the same.


"00" refers to the grind, not necessarily the protein level, I think. Are you sure your "00" was strong enough?

kisgabi's picture
kisgabi

I'm not sure at all, but here in Australia the terms are different, there is no strong flour. Will look for bread flour next.


thanks for the suggestion!


gabi

madruby's picture
madruby

After reading all the positive comments and seeing the yummy pics of these ciabattas, I decided to invest in a KA stand mixer so I can make this bread (I saw that some of you were able to do it by hand but I am not there yet...).  After I unpacked my KA and started to flip through the manufacturer's manual, I noticed that there was a warning that said to knead the dough at speed 2 as any other speed may cause the KA's failure.  Huhhhh, what was that all about?  This is a Professional 5, 475 w machine (which is a bit stronger than the Artisan series).  Most of the postings relating to KA did mention a kneading at speed 6 for appx 10 to 30 min.  Am I missing something here?  I bought this machine just so I can do this particular bread...sigh.


I'd like to get some feedback please before I start doing anything with my KA-Jason's ciabatta recipe.  Merci

Schroomer's picture
Schroomer

Greetings madruby...not to worry. I have the same machine and this is unlike normal bread dough. It is loose enough that is does not put the strain on your machine like a conventional bread dough. I have the same machine, have made the bread multiple times, and you can anticipate no problems. Ignore the warning ans START BAKING!!!

madruby's picture
madruby

Problem solved.  Will do this ciabatta this weekend and report back.  I have so many shaped loaves in my fridge ready to be  baked that I don't know where to put all my other refrigerated foods.  Once I am done baking these babes, will move on to this recipe.  Cheers

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

I have the Pro 600 KitchenAid.. my machine gets pretty hot making this dough.  I can smell the machine oil when it gets to be that warm.  Recently, I've started using my DLX Assistent machine to mix this dough.. it just performs better without getting so hot.  Don't have to mix quite as long either. 

kisgabi's picture
kisgabi

Anyone from Australia here?


if yes, or you happen to know all about the flours of the world :) what is the best flour to use for ciabatta in Oz? Laucke Wallaby??


thanks

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

kisgabi,


I no longer live in Australia, but I used to (Melbourne).  Laucke Wallaby is good flour to use.  I've used Manildra's, but preferred LW's because of the natural aroma when baking.  You can also see if your local baker can sell you some of their flour.  It's hard to find LW or any bread flour in local stores sometimes. 


Good luck.

kisgabi's picture
kisgabi

Thanks for your comment, have tried Wallaby yesterday and it works wonderful :) and grabbed the last 5kg pack from the shelf in Coles.


thanks again, gabi

madruby's picture
madruby

Ok, let me start by saying that I was ready to throw this gluey dough halfway through.


I decided to try out this recipe but cut all the ingredients in half.  I added the salt only after the 10 min rest.  I sprayed the paddle and spiral hook to avoid having the dough pull up too much.  And that is where I thought I made the first mistake.  After 20 min beating the dough at speed 6 on my KA, it did not look like the dough was ever going to pull away from the bowl.  Getting a bit impatient, I raised the speed to no 8 a few times after 25 min.  The dough was still not climbing up the hook and I was afraid that the Pam was causing it.  The dough did come close to pulling completely away from the bowl but at the very last second, the dough would fall right back into the bowl.  After 30 min of the beating, I just decided to pour it out and let it triple anyways.


Two hours passed and the dough must have risen appx half its size and here I'm thinking I needed the dough to triple.  Not happening...so I was gonna throw it out.  But since I did not have anything to do and no where to go, I figured I'd just let it sit there for as long as it needed til it'd triple as an experiment.  Hold and behold, after 3h30, the dough almost tripled.


Baked it and .....the ciabattas were superbe!  Big holes, airy, light, moist, crust is wonderful.  The only complaint is, as some of you may have noticed, the lack of depth with taste and flavors.  Not a bad bread but definitely one that needs to be eaten as a "panini" type, or dipped in oil, etc...to enhance its flavor.


But still, I'd encourage you to test it for yourself.

Schroomer's picture
Schroomer

OK, I've done this now about 10 times in three weeks and every time I have the same result. I'm Schroomer from a few post above including pics. I suggested the KA speed 6 to you prior so I hope I didn't lead you astray. Try it at the original posted recipe mixture and see if there is a difference. I am not a food scientist and there are those on this site that can comment on a half recipe and its impact to achieving success. All I know is that as I listed, it comes out damn near perfect every time. If you can get King Arthur Flour, try it. I also proof in a large dehydrator which provides a constant 75 to 80 degree environment for my rises. If you don't have a warm house, turn your oven on for two minutes, then off. Put your dough in there to rise. Mine takes about 90 minutes. My bread has an amazing nutty taste to the crust and a beautiful crumb. A couple loaves to the neighbors got me 5 pounds of trout fillets in return. But I smiled at your speed 8 comment. That had to be a sight! 

madruby's picture
madruby

Thanks for stopping by.  Like I said, the crumb and crust turned out perfectly.  Love my ciabattas.  It's just that I also baked P.R. ABED French bread this am and when I compare the two flavors, I can definitely see a difference in taste and flavor complexity.  I am not disappointed with this ciabatta; it's just another kind of bread that requires a bit more flavor enhancement IMHO. I may also try out adding a poolish just to see the difference.


I did use KAF and SAF yeast.  I thought about making the original recipe the next time I did this again (when I was about to throw the dough away) but since the ciabattas turned out great, I wouldn't mind keeping it at half the portion (I live alone during the weekdays and there is no way I can go through all this bread by myself).


And for sure, I will buy an air tight container; have been meaning to do this for some time.  My hubby cannot believe how I have besieged our kitchen with tons of kitchen tools and gadgets in just the las month.

kisgabi's picture
kisgabi

Hi Madruby,


Is there any chance you can post the recipe of this french bread you mentioned ?


thanks, Gabi

madruby's picture
madruby

Hi Gabi,


The actual recipe itself is quite simple: flour, water, salt and yeast.  The reason why I am reluctant to post it is bcuz the instructions are a bit long.  In addition, I have also used a variation (please read my posting in General Discussion and Recipe Exchange: Peter Reinharts artisan breads.  I could try to summarize it but I am afraid I would leave out some important info.  Furthermore, is there any rule regarding copying someone else's recipe?  If I am allowed to do so, I will try to cook you up something and post it on a different forum (so I do not take up any space at this forum).


But in the end, the best thing to do is to buy his book; it is worth every penny of it (and this is coming from a newbie baker).  The book is very user-friendly, the pictures delicious....all in all, a beautiful book that I highly recommend.  What I baked yesterday morning was absolute PERFECTION (crust, crumb, appearance) and Peter knows how to take you there.  My hairdresser couldn't believe how amazing the bread tasted.


 

Alfie's picture
Alfie

After the rest, I put the dough into one of those 6 quart containers with a lid.  It was a double amount so the 2 qts would have to triple before reaching the lid.  When I came back 2 1/2 hours later the dough had expanded to the point the lid was crowned up from pressure of the rising dough.  I opened the lid which produced a loud pop and the dough fell to slightly more than the original amount that I put in the plastic container.  Am I a goner?  Should I let it rise again in the plastic container or divide the dough into 4 loafs and go for it?


I know now that the 2 1/2 hours time should have been lessened and that I should have opened the lid more gradually.


We are all in this together,


 


Al

OldWoodenSpoon's picture
OldWoodenSpoon

Knead it a few strokes by hand to put new food in reach of the yeast, and then shape it right away.  Watch the proofing carefully and aim to bake it somewhat under proofed.  Don't let it over proof or there may not be enough food to sustain it.  Even so, you may not get great oven spring, and you might get a paler crust than otherwise, but it will still taste good.


OldWoodenSpoon

Alfie's picture
Alfie

Not knowing that a reply would be so timely I did pretty much what you suggested by SOP.  The oven spring was not quite springy but it seems to be tasty.  Many thanks for your help.  /al

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

This page gets a lot of attention. The bread is out standing. I did two batches yesterday. Oven already up to temp so just time the proofing.


I have added 2 tablesppons of wheat flour to both batches of bread, Normail proofing 1 1/2 to 2 hours.


Taste is very good.  Nice Crispy crust and lot of holes in the crumb.


Have a nice Holiday,


Mr Bob


www.siemann.us/motosat.html


 



 

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

Nice job

LT72884's picture
LT72884

So i made this today but since i dont understand metric, i converted to cups. So 500g of flour is equal to 4 cups flour. so when i added all the ingredients into my kitchenaid, and then added the water, it mixed up FAST. it didnt look like pancake batter at any stage. more like pie crust. haha. Any way, the dough was really really thick and clung to the hook. after it rose 3 times, it still was thick, not gloopy at all. just curious if i converted everything correctly.


 


thanks

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

Your experience is a perfect example of why anyone who bakes bread needs a scale.. buy one that weighs both metric and US.  They aren't that expensive and they worth every single penny. 


You either converted your dough wrong or you added way too much. This dough truly is a wet, gloppy blob... I'm sorry it didn't work for you.  It's super nice bread.

LT72884's picture
LT72884

Thanks for the reply. Thats nice to know though!. It trippled just fine and hten i put it into the cibatta shape and put it in the oven and low and behold... flatbread. so we had naan for dinner rather than ciabatta, haha


 


its googles fault for the conversions then. according to google and answers.com, 125grams = 1 cup flour... So the internet doesnt know everything. haha


 


i think my sister has a scale, i will try that next time. Oh and it could have been that i do the scope and sweep method of measureing. i dont use a sifter at all. i just scope it in the cup and use a knife to levle it out.


 


thanx guys

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

You can have your guesswork correct or google the conversion correctly, but everyone scoops and measures differently.  It's shocking how "off" on your ingredients you can be when you measure, vs weigh.  In addition, different flours can weigh differently... and there are as many guesses as to the weight of a cup of all purpose flour as there are opinions.  No one seems to agree. 


I hope you don't give up on the recipe.. it's a really good one.  You can buy a great digital food scale that measures every which way to sunday and has a tare function so you can just use one bowl to accurately measure everything.  I've seen them for less than $20 and includes free shipping.  Just buy a digital one..


Good luck!

Chuck's picture
Chuck

... So the internet doesnt know everything. ...


Yep, weight-to-volume "conversions" aren't anywhere near as accurate as they initially appear. At the same time, in the web's defense, I'll point out that this is just one more manifestation of the hoary old problem with calculators and computers: confusing "precision" with "accuracy" (dictionary time?-). That confusion is something we computer professionals have been decrying (largely fruitlessly) for many many decades already.


The Google answer isn't exactly "wrong"  ...it's just incomplete. It really should have a footnote of a least a couple paragraphs to explain it. So long as we shoehorn answers into nothing more than a single "number", we get this sort of over-simplified under-explained pablum. 



ssorllih's picture
ssorllih

It is amazing what you can do when you are ignorant. I mix a half pound of flour with six ounces of water, a teaspoon of table salt and a teaspoon of yeast stir the whole mess up with a strong spoon, let rest for a half hour, stir it again and leave it alone for a couple of hours. Dump it out on to a pile of flour and organize it into a loaf shape and put it on a greased baking sheet, let it rise for a while  and get a loaf that looks just like that. I never knew that it had a name I just called it bread.

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