The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Community Bake - Baguettes by Alfanso

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Community Bake - Baguettes by Alfanso

This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.

We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form

Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.

For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
 
   

    

Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.

Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.

Alan writes:

I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread.  It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.

I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.

Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.

This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."

NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary.  Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.

   Additional Resources

 

Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.  

Danny 

A late addition -

In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

It sounds like you are under-developing the gluten intentionally.  When I tried that, my results became inconsistent so I went to the other end of the scale and used a weak flour and fully developed the gluten and it became consistent.  That probably explains your crumb appearance.

How much pre-fermented flour? Much above 15% and the sourness seems to decline for me.  Less PFF = more sour bread for reasons I can't explain.  12% PFF gives me a detectably but not aggressively sour result.

Will be interested in your repeat of that data point.

How long did it take to bulk ferment without the IDY?

Benito's picture
Benito

Yes I got that idea from Don, but also from Trevor Wilson’s book as well and have stuck with it because it seemed to be working.  So I only do Rubaud mixing at the beginning and then only two sets of coil folds.

Yes these had Alan’s formula of 15% pre-fermented flour.  I’ve recently made a change to my starter maintenance.  I make just enough starter to bake one batard and the baguettes now per week and have about 5 g left.  I now feed my starter the day before I need to make the levain for the baguettes.  I think I am transferring less acid load from the starter to the levain this way.  In the past the starter would have been built days before making levain and while sitting in the fridge the acidity was probably building up too high.

I actually didn’t pay attention to the time other than when doing the coil folds.  Since I have been using the aliquot jar, I really have been watching the dough and not the clock so much.  My impression was that it took a bit longer but not that much.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

you are ALL now out-me-ing me!  Don't tell me you aren't or I'll be disappointed in you folks.  And I haven't yet resorted calling anyone a liar on TFL.  Just take it - I don't want to hear any false modesty!

Beautiful.  Benny, you had to have the talent already in your hands or you couldn't have come this far this fast.

Benito's picture
Benito

Alan, seriously, as I said earlier, everything I know about baguettes I learned from you all in this incredible thread.  I’m still amazed that I’ve been able to bake good baguettes starting off as I did with my sort of baguettes way way back.  I’m very happy with what I’ve accomplished, and particularly happy with the crumb on this semolina baguette without any IDY. I really thought the IDY was giving me that crumb, I guess I was wrong.  

I still do need work on my shaping, it isn’t where I want it to be, that is taking me a while to get there.  I have crumb, ears and grigne, but shaping still needs work.

kendalm's picture
kendalm

These are incredible - maybr we need to start a site called thefeeshbagette.com amd these bless the homepage.  I love your crumb ! 

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks Geremy that is nice of you to say.  I am very happy with the crumb, more open than my first attempt so pleased that I have a better understanding of what variables to change when making baguettes to produce a better baguette.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Benny and Doc, please give us the girth (at the widest part) of your baked baguettes.

I wonder if a larger girth contributes to more open crumb.

Doc is shaping typical baguettes, but uses a larger dough. Benny and Maurizio are shaping torpedos, although the very ends are still exhibiting very open crumb.

Just wondering...
Ya know, you may be thinking success is way off in the distance, when it could happen your next attempt.

Benito's picture
Benito

At the widest 3”.  But Doc is getting fabulous crumb and his must be narrower than 3”.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Benny, measure the circumference. Today’s bake is 7”. 

Benito's picture
Benito

OK sorry, the diameter at the widest point is 8.25”, so girthier than the ones you folks are making.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The only think that doesn’t line up with the train the thought is your narrow ends are also open with evenly distributed cell structure.

I’m going to dial this end, just don’t know how bakes it’ll take :-)

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

All of a sudden have the urge to bake a pie!

 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

It will be the pie itself multiplied by the number of rasberries squared ! 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

calculator to figure out the number of raspberries that fit into I M Pei's Louvre pyramid...

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Lives under there Alan.  Didn't you watch 'The Edge of Tomorrow' - thank our lucky stars for Tommy Cruise for getting that ! 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Just an hour ago in a previous post I wrote, “Ya know, you may be thinking success is way off in the distance, when it could happen your next attempt.

Could it possibly be, my time has come?
This bake used Louis Lamore’s Traditional French Baguette formula with T65. The hydration was upped to 70% and minimal hand mixing was utilized. I did not want to develop a strong gluten. The goal was a 25% rise (Aliquot), but it got away from me and ended up at 34%. After so many bakes, I sincerely hope I am getting close to dialing in This crumb thing. But it’ll take consistently to confirm...

Starting to gets ears with the T65 and higher hydration.

NOTE - the crumb on both of these loaves was a very nice pale yellow, much like semolina. I attribute this to the flour and also the way the dough was gently worked and not over oxidized. A very recent bake used T65 and was thoroughly mixed in the mixer. The result was a bright white crumb and the taste was so bad, the bread was fed to the birds. But for this bake the flavor was good and the texture was great. Still wondering if the flour isn’t staling prematurely. But because my home is lite up like a surgical room (6000K, super high lumen LED) the true color gets washed away. I do like bright light... But guess what, Patsy must have some bat genes in her DNA because she is ALWAYS dimming things down :-)

Benito's picture
Benito

Dan the crumb on these is excellent, you must be pleased.  What do you contribute this to, higher hydration, less dough manipulation?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I think, less dough handling, but not sure. Also less BF.

Hope this can be duplicated. This is a major advancement for me.

What are you BF to lately?
once BF is complete do you shape and go straight to retard?
Are you baking straight out of the fridge?

Memory is bad and there is SO MUCH data in the CB. Sorry for any repetitive questions.

Benito's picture
Benito

This most recent bake is the first time I adjusted BF down to 20% and I will need to repeat what I did to make sure it wasn’t a fluke.  At 20% rise I then bulk retard the dough in the fridge overnight not yet shaped or divided.

Next day usually after 20-24 hours because of my work schedule, I divide and then rest 20-30 mins.  I then shape, roll on wet towel and roll or place on the seeds.  I have found I cannot roll on the seeds because in fact the seeds just slide around.  The place in the couche.  Oven is turned on to 500ºF.  The shaped baguettes are left in the couche at room temperature for 30 mins, poke test showing that they aren’t yet overproofed and appear to be appropriately proofed.  Then they are placed back in the fridge to stiffen up a bit to make scoring easier.  By the time the oven has reached temperature the 30 mins or fridge time has ended so I transfer each for scoring and bake cold dropping the temperature to 480ºF for 13 mins with steam and then 480ºF with convection without steam for 10 mins rotating them halfway and then final 3 mins oven turned off.

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Really great crumb.  Since you're talking flavor recently - for this formula I think its a great path yo minimize thr mixing but also if you can swing 18+ hours cold retart yiu should get rewarded with some great flavor.  Louis recimmends a min of 6 hours but I like to push it to 12, 18 even 24 hours.  

On a side note and being nit-picky - your crust looks a bit dry.  Got enough steam ? Another note - looks like you are going thin and long.  Look out for thin kinks - I find that you have to be very mindful of the shaping leading to a thin spot that is hard to recover from.  Not to be hyper-critical but you are at that level danno ! 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Geremy, I checked my notes and the shaped and couched dough retarded for 22hr @ 38F.

Thin sections in the shaping process is a beast, especially with very slack dough. Nit-pik me, I want to learn and improve :-) No Problem.

Dry and dull crust -
I must have an oven problem. Dry and dull are the norm. No matter how much steam is supplied. I don’t find major leaks in the oven and I’m able to drown the oven’s cavity with steam. I’ve tried all of the following and even combinations of these.

  1. Pressure Cooker
  2. Lava Rocks
  3. Sylvia’s Steam Towel
  4. Rofco Steam Tray

And combos of the above.

I am getting ready to setup Tom’s Steam Curtain to give that a try.

Any Ideas? I’m wide open...

Benito's picture
Benito

I’m sure you’ve experimented with brushing water on your dough Dan did it help at all?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Not really, Benny. I’ve been painting the last 3 or so batches with water with little results. This problem has plagued me for years. No big blisters, no sheen.

I suspected the oven was too hot (550F), reduced heat, same thing.

 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Just the right amount is all it takes.  Last week in my oven thread when I started doubting things I went ahead and baked a loaf in my new replacement domestic gas oven and totally botched the steam - ie I let it escape.  The loaf still rose and burst but came out dull and you can see that in the pics. since you are using the same flour as I do I can only think that the environment is too dry.  Did you try the top rack ? I always got much better results up top.  Also are you really trapping the steam ? For example with lava rocks you'll get a burst and then simmer.  Its that initial burst and that matters (it seems) and shutting the door asap to trap it.  In my experience if miss trapping that cloud, the simmering steam is kind of useless.  Also with a domestic oven pumped up to over 500F a little less than 1/2 cup of water seemed the ticket.  btw heres what Im looking for in terms of timing and throttling.  First 5 mins - the spring and takes it final shape.  next 8-10 minutes - not much color change. the last 5-7 minutes its starts to darken to final color.  I evacuate around 10 minutes and throttle the temps down and kind of play it by ear to try and achieve the color I want by 19 or 20 mins.  Oh yeah I also mist the loaves and I find that helps a bit.  I am torn wondering about this because I know your steam commitment with devices and a lot of experiments - even still I feel like it escaping by the photos.  Is any of the above worth anything considering your setup and regimen ? 

Benito's picture
Benito

OK this is interesting, as you know I’ve been baking my baguettes on a baking steel on a roasting rack stuffed with crumpled aluminum foil.  This set up is on the lowest level of my oven because my oven isn’t that tall.  Geremy are you saying that you would reverse my setup and place the rack high in the oven and the steaming gear below?  

kendalm's picture
kendalm

I was just telling it like is and what worked for me.  One thing that wad highlighted in my 'new oven' thread is just how different of an experience gping feom a domestic gas oven to a commercial electric oven.  With my gas oven with its laege cavity the hottest area was up top.  Lava rocks at the base and eventually nice looking loaves appeared with the top rack configuration.  Since you are producing such beautiful reaults I think changing it may or may not make any difference and it might actually get worse results.  I guess if you tried this it may just turn out to be an academic exercise only.  So no, Im suggesting as  a rule of thumb but merely throwing user experiences at Danny - if it aint broke why fx it ? 

Benito's picture
Benito

Yeah, I’ll probably leave it as it is unless I reach a point that I just want to fiddle with things, but I haven’t reached that yet.  Thanks Geremy.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

My lava rock pan is 13x9 and filled to the brim with the rocks.  I pour 2 full cups of near boiling water into them just after loading the dough.  Then close the door immediately., and force the oven to refire to bring the temp up from let's say 435 back to 480 again, which happens pretty quickly.  But the thick baking stone ensures that the dough is not cheated out of direct or immediate ambient heat.   

So there's a lot of steam going on from all that water and the burst of steam continues for quite a while.  The amount of water ensures that the steam is invisibly billowing inside the oven box.  Here's a very short video I made of what the vent looks like with steam coming out.  This was probably a few minutes into the bake too!

One more thing - I've never painted or sprayed the dough on the way into the oven nor anytime during the bake.  They all bake au natural!

 

Benito's picture
Benito

I’ve never seen steam like that come out of my oven, that is impressive.  I no longer brush water on my baguettes, but I do like the effect on the larger batards and boules.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Many have seen my steam capabilities, but for those that haven’t see video below. I don’t know the answer to my problem but I do know that I can inject large volumes of steam at will. I’ve never been able to get consistent blisters are glossy crust. DARN IT...

Benito's picture
Benito

That is such impressive steam, I can’t imagine that your crusts aren’t getting enough steam Dan.

kendalm's picture
kendalm

that the pressure cooker systen is not providing enough steam.  Seen that video before and was really impressed.  Yeah thats a mystery as to why you are not getting a shinier crust.  Then alan goes on to say that he uses 2 full cups of water.  Even bigger mystery ! I guess I would try toggling things and see what happens.  I think the first toggle I would try is raising that deck a notch or two and I say that watching the steam from the hose coming in from the top.  Are you using a gas oven ? I should by now already know but if you are that whole slot where the hose is coming in - well isnt that a long width-wise vent ? 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Geremy, “Also are you really trapping the steam ? For example with lava rocks you'll get a burst and then simmer.  Its that initial burst and that matters (it seems) and shutting the door asap to trap it.”

I couldn’t agree more about the short flash of steam from lava rocks. Because of this the steam pan is filled with lava rocks, then a piece of very heavy duty aluminum foil is tightly fitted on the top. At the back of the pan the aluminum flares up and towards the back of the oven. This prevents the steam from escaping out of the door and the aluminum is also setup to prevent to rising steam from cooling the stone because it is directed by the foil away from it. Only a small hole is open in the front to allow the filling with water.

I am working on the steam towel at this time. Don’t know what else to do.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

High gluten flour, cold overnight autolyse, NO IDY, 125% BF, 35 min rest

PFF       levain hydration   dough hydration   salt    total batch weight
11.8%           100%                66.7%             2.0%        1776g + 30g for aliquot jar
227 (29 seed + 115 H2O + 115 BF -8 losses)    566 H2O    932 AP + 10 diastatic malt    21.40 salt
Make 259g levain (100%) by putting into the levain the excess water above what is needed to do the autolyse at 62% hydration

Process:
combine the 932 AP flour, 10g diastatic malt, and 566 cold water and mix for 7 min at speed 0.  Knead a few turns until it is fully smooth and cover bowl with StretchTite and refrigerate overnight.  (Yielded 1502g net autolysed dough)

In the AM add the 252g levain and no IDY and continue mixing for another 6 minutes at speed 0 to fully combine before moving to speed 4 to develop the gluten. Incorporate the salt during the first 2 min at speed 0.

56.8° after 6 min @speed 0
Mix at speed 4 in 2 minute increments until fully developed
61.0° @2 min on 4
66.0° @4 min on 4
Add 10g water [this little big of bassinaged liquid seemed to do a lot for the dough - making it smooth and stong and extensible]
70.3° @6 min on speed 4.
(2.25°F/min)
71.6° after transfer to BF container and removal of 30g for aliquot jar

Ferment in retarder for 3:30@66°F, then 1:30 at room temperature (~80°F) to ~125% of original volume (48 ml on aliquot jar)(~5:00 from start of mixing).  BF in retarder at 66°F average was intended to slow it down a little so that it would not over-ferment while I was off at a meeting.  This was probably not essential since there was no IDY in the mix and it was bound to be slow in any case

Divide into 4 parts (~444g) and pre-shape (5 min), rest 35min, final shape (7 min).

Counter proof for 1:15 (until it was puffy and soft)

Retard 1:45 @40°F to make it easier to slash
Aliquot jar was at 70ml  (30ml dough, 10ml water, 30ml expansion so about 30/30=100% dough volume increase) when it went to the oven, but the aliquot jar had been on the counter while the dough was in the retarder.

Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle

Analysis:
Including the DM in with the long cold autolyse seems to provide a darker bottom crust than adding it to the mix in the morning when the levain and the autolysed flour are combined and mixed.

Since Bennie ran a batch that had beautiful crumb without any commercial yeast, I decided that I would make the same adjustment to my successful baseline (which uses 0.1% IDY) and observe the result.  Other than taking a while longer, the results are quite good. Shaping was somewhat hurried (and it shows), but the crumb is as good or better than previous trials. 

The somewhat darker bottom crust is an improvement for those who like a dark bake (count me in that group).

Benito's picture
Benito

I see that you found the same result as I did when I accidentally left out the IDY, the crumb you achieve is wonderful, really really  and open irregular just as a baguette should be.  I think you’ve also adjusted your scoring a bit, the straps seem narrower and the scores a bit more longitudinal rather than cross sectional in angle.  I like the darker colour myself as well.  

Well done Doc.

Benny

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

If you had x-ray vision and you looked into the shaped dough just before loading in the oven, what would the cell structure look like?

I am trying to learn if the structure of the cells (size, uniformity, wall thickness) are starting to develop in the pre-baked dough or if the magic mostly takes place in the oven.

When scored is the dough airy or is it compact and easily scored.

Is the magic taking place during a huge oven spring? Should our focus be on oven spring? A dough that blows up in the oven.

Strange questions, I know. I am trying to determine a main focal point for upcoming bakes when perfect crumb is the goal. Because of the relatively small circumference it is difficult to judge the amount of oven spring.

Doc, IMO you have elevated the quality of your crumb to Master Baguette Meister, Benny. Well done...

Benito's picture
Benito

This is only a guess because I really don’t know, but I would think that the structure is already there in the unbaked dough.  As the heat causes the water to evaporate and the alveoli in the dough to rapidly expand you get the oven spring.  If I didn’t refrigerate the dough before scoring, it was always delicate and airy.  It is only in recent bakes that with chilling the dough that scoring has been less scary with firmer dough.  But I think that the cell structure is there already there in the dough and is only amplified by baking.

What does everyone else think?

alfanso's picture
alfanso

1) Early errors are magnified downstream.  The earlier the error, the greater the magnification, and the harder to compensate and correct.  Errors caught early in the process are mostly manageable and create the least negative effects downstream.

2) The bake is nothing more than the culmination of everything that preceded it, right through the scoring of the dough.  The structure and integrity is set in place before the dough is ever loaded into the oven.

Can the bake make a difference - of course.  Dan's steaming related problems clearly demonstrate this.  Or my own quite recent bone-headed move of not ensuring that the oven door was completely closed until about 8 minutes into the bake and the oven temperature had dropped off 100 degrees.  Oven temperature management, hot and cool spots, manhandling a half baked loaf, the bread not reaching internal temperature...  You all know the routine.

But none of these are related to the two key points above.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

The openness of the crumb is fully determined by things you do before it goes into the oven, and is largely determined  by things that happen before you reach the end of bulk proof. You can also damage it anytime you handle the dough (divide, pre-shape, shape).  And we have pretty good evidence that the specifics of the flour you choose are less important,  That leaves mixing and hydration and temperature and time (and potentially the amount of salt) as the major residual variables.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Doc, “ is largely determined  by things that happen before you reach the end of bulk proof”.

Is it correct to assume that bulk proof the same as bulk ferment?

If cells structure is determined at the end of BF, it is amazing that it takes place at ~25% increase. This subject is extremely interesting to me.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Yes - I suspect that from there on (and perhaps before then), you are getting cell count reduction through growth, diffusion, collapse and consolidation, so it is probably important that you don't incorporate ingredients or process steps that tend to stabilize the alveloi (which is one of the roles of fat).

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Just like Joe Jackson said.  Ehm no, that was 'stepping out' .... whatever - a song about enjoying stuff after some challenges.  Seems fitting enough 

 

 A little defective crumb but thats ok - no me importa 

this pic below is for Dan who asked for a snap right after scoring.  Its a terrible photo sorry - 

 

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

You can't get what you want, 'til you know what you want.  

Looks like the old times all over again.  What a beauty.  Look forward to reading more about this bake in the Sunday Papers...

PS Don't ever hire yourself out as a wedding photographer.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Thanks, Geremy. From the looks of the raw scored dough, it is apparent that you rely on massive oven spring for success. The image is helpful.

Your image gives credence to your belief that scoring is not as important as most people believe. Do you still agree with that statement?

kendalm's picture
kendalm

I think the proof is the 'new oven thread' as you can see that each bake was scored just the same way and it wasnt until the oven conditions were hitting just the right temps and humidity then presto.  Although I will say that this time I scored on a shallow angle as opposed to 90 degrees down and the ears developed better.  So my position is that good scoring gets better reaults but you need the spring first and I think people get all wrapped up in the blade angle etc before solving the oven situation.  Yah, I fogot to mention the little change up on scores this time.  From here I'm ready to start loading more loaves at a time - just happy to part of this mega thead and 'back on the chain gang'

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Geremy, I have also noticed that a low angle seems to produce better ears in doughs that are difficult such as baguettes. 

I think there is truth on both ends of the scoring spectrum. Scoring angles and techniques matter and at least equally so, the condition of the dough and the oven setup must be combined in order to succeed. AND no ear is more challenging than those that sit atop a baguette.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

9/19/20: High gluten flour, cold overnight autolyse, 0.1% IDY, 125% BF, 35 min rest, 3 x 425g + 2 x 250g baguettes

PFF       levain hydration       dough hydration      salt      total batch size
11.8%    100%    66.1%    2.0%    1802 (includes 30g for aliquot jar)

227 (28 seed + 115 H2O + 115 BF -8 losses)    566 H2O    932 AP + 10 diastatic malt    21.40 salt
Make 259g levain (100%) by putting into the levain the excess water above what is needed to do the autolyse at 62% hydration

Process:
combine the 932 AP flour, 10g diastatic malt, and 566 cold water and mix for 7 min at speed 0.  Knead a few turns until it is fully smooth and cover bowl with StretchTite and refrigerate overnight.

In the AM add the 252g levain and 1.048g IDY and continue mixing for another 6 minutes at speed 0 to fully combine before moving to speed 4 to develop the gluten. Incorporate the salt during the first 2 min at speed 0.

58.2° after 6 min @speed 0
Mix at speed 4 in 2 minute increments until fully developed
62.6° @2 min on 4
66.6° @4 min on 4
Add 10g water and bassinage into the mix during the next 2 min @ speed 4
70.6° @6 min on speed 4. (still not fully developed so mix another minute)
72.9° @7 min on speed 4
(2.06°F/min)

Take 30g for aliquot jar.

Ferment to ~125% of original volume (48 ml on aliquot jar)(~3:30 from start of mixing)
Divide into 5 parts (3x ~424g + 2 x 250g) and pre-shape (5 min), rest 35min, final shape (7 min).

Counter proof for 1:00
Aliquot jar =70ml  (30ml dough, 10ml water, 30ml expansion so about 30/30=100% dough volume increase)

Retard 1:15 @40°F to make it easier to slash

Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle

Assessment:

This batch was for a birthday party so I didn't want to go too far off the farm but because I only needed three loaves, I decided to make two 250g baguettes just to see what the ears and the crumb would look like.

The crumb looks good on both the large and the small loaves, but the ears on the small baguettes are not impressive. The dough felt like it was over-proofed when it was slashed and the ears on all of the loaves are sub-par.

Other than that, the timing was close to yesterday with a couple of small differences: the temperatures at the various stages of mixing were sightly different, and the bulk fermentation was perhaps a couple of percent above the planned 25% volume increase just because of the few extra minutes it took to get prepared to divide the dough.  With the IDY in the mix, it starts slow but by the end of BF things are moving quite rapidly and can easily go further than intended.

Benito's picture
Benito

You’re really consistent now on the amazing open crumb Doc, it doesn’t seem to matter too much what process you use or whether or not it has IDY in it.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Doc has joined the ranks with Benny. When it comes to baguettes, both bakers are definitely “dialed in”.

Your baguettes are consistent and would garner the respect of the very best professional bakers anywhere in the world.

Shall I say it?
WORLD CLASS!

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

@Benny - I think you are right in that the structure of the crumb does not depend on the use of commercial yeast, but adding a little IDY can accelerate the process so long as I stay below 0.1% yeast to keep it below the threshold where it affects the flavor.  But it does take some time for that small amount of yeast to get going.  So today I am trying something just a little bit different. 

Last night when I mixed the flour and water (@60% hydration), I incorporated 0.1% IDY into the diastatic malt and mixed that with the flour.  So the cold autolyse was a fermentolyse or yeastolyse if you like since the levain was built separately.  This morning, the autolysed flour and water (really just a no-salt dough @ 60% hydration), exhibited some volume increase overnight. Enough that it was noticeable but not to the point where the dough was soft, maybe a few percent. Then I mixed in the 100% hydration levain, then the salt, then an additional 5% water to bring the dough up to 70% hydration. 

It required a few additional minutes of high speed (4 on the Famag) mixing to get the gluten developed to the point I wanted.  The dough is pretty slack, so I may add a fold or two to the BF and see how long it takes to get to 25% volume increase.  Previously, with the IDY added to the levain then immediately combined with the cold autolysed dough, the BF time was ~3:30.  On the occasion that I pre-mixed the IDY with a little water and a pinch of sugar, BF time was slightly less, so there is some acceleration if the yeast is dissolved first.

Benito's picture
Benito

How cold is your fermentolyse (without levain) Doc, are we talking fridge overnight, or mixed cold put into the fridge a short while and left at room temperature overnight?

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I mix with room temperature flour and water (though I did not check either the water temperature or the dough temperature after getting everything combined and before it went into the refrigerator). The dough ball is  ~5.5" in diameter (1668g of dough) though it sits only about 3" thick in the bowl so it will take a few hours to chill down to 38°F.

The levain was 26g of seed starter + 133g each water and bread flour (~1:5:5) and fermented at a measured but uncontrolled 83.7°F overnight, losing 4g of CO2 (~3% of the weight of the added flour) in the process, so it was mature but not frothy when used.

The dough temperature after mixing was 74.4°F.

Benito's picture
Benito

So the bit of fermentation during the overnight autolyse probably led to the baguettes being a little bit overfermented leading to the slightly poorer ears, would you agree Doc?  The aliquot dough rise didn’t take into account any rise the dough experienced prior to the aliquot dough being removed after the levain was added.  So your 25% increase may have been 30% or at least somewhere between 25-30%.  Not to take anything away from the finial baguettes at all, but just looking at the one thing you weren’t happy with, the ears.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Doc, “The levain was 26g of seed starter + 133g each water and bread flour (~1:5:5) and fermented at a measured but uncontrolled 83.7°F overnight”.

How many hours did your levain ferment. 84F sounds hot for an overnight ferment.

At ~77 all I can get with 20% starter is 10 hr. As we discussed, I am using very high protein flour for me long fermented levains. It seems the gluten will be stronger when it mixes with the dough.

Doc, I’ll be baking your formula tomorrow. Glad I didn’t go 68% as originally planned. 65% with sd seems about right, although very slack.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I say “Mysterious” because -
      There are opposing thoughts and techniques from bakers that are consistently producing Master Quality Baguettes.

  • Some hand mix being mindful to not over develop the gluten. Others fully develop the gluten by intense machine mixing.
  • Some are adamant about mixing fairly wet doughs, while another have succeeded at 60% hydration.
  • Excellent, masterful crumb is produced from both high and low gluten.
  • Both Sourdough, commercial yeast, or combinations (hybrid) of those leavening agents are an individual choice of each baker. Most seldom deviate.
  • Most bakers are highly opinionated about their flour. But then again, Alan is able to use the most generic flours to produce eye catching masterpieces.
  • ...the list could go on.

After reading the above the un-initiated might think that baguettes are non-demanding and therefore a breeze to make. It does look that way. But, if you decided to give them a try with excellence as a goal, you are sure to have a change of mind. That is not to discourage anyone from such a unique bread. They are surely approachable by all. The key word, “excellence” is what makes them a supreme challenge for determined bakers.

I am amazed at the results of the baguettes made using very different formulas and even opposing methods. The varied results seem to contradict one another, but “the proof is in the pudding”.

Benito's picture
Benito

Like so many things with baking there’s more than one way to arrive at the same end product, more or less.  I think is what we’re really showing, that there really isn’t only one way to make a great baguette.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

The flours used were many and varied and when handled well all made pretty nice baguettes, but that does not eliminate the possibility that for each flour there is an appropriate hydration and degree of gluten development.

I am looking for the elements that were common to all who had reasonable success. Please chime in if I mischaracterize anything:

There seemed to be rather less dough handling between end of mix and final shaping, with high hydration dough more likely to need at least some while stiffer dough does not.

Pre-shaping using as little flour as you can arrange and to a shape that is close to final shape was widely adopted

Nobody added any fat

While we initially saw people bulk fermenting to 150% of post-mix volume (or higher), everybody eventually found that something closer to 120-125% produced better results.

Chilling the dough to make it easier to slash seems to be another common success story, though I am not sure that we have a consensus on a metric for how far to let final proof go before baking (or retarding).

I don't think anybody is still adding nutritional yeast or fava bean flour to their dough, but there are a few, perhaps most (though I don't know about 'all'), who continue to add diastatic malt to improve browning.

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

but for some reason I was under the impression that baguettes are leavened with "old dough" types of preferments. Be it a yeasted biga, pate fermentee or stiff levain. Something about baguettes and flavour makes this ring true. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

is made with wheat flour, water, salt yeast in the purest sense, although thee is some leeway for a fava bean type flour to be used as well.  With or without a preferment - typically a poolish if one is to be used.  And typically with cake yeast.  

But there is nothing that stands in the way of, for example, a levain baguette ala the Monge Baguette of Eric Keyser.

As much as anything, the baguette is defined by the shape, just as with a batard or boule, without regard to what components are used.

(welcome back)

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

Baguettes were made daily and needed to be ready by very early morning I came to the conclusion that old dough style pre-ferment from the previous batch was used, traditionally. But I think this is an idea I dreamt up. 

Nice to be back. I'd love to join in but my set-up isn't great for baking baguettes. I'll just have to admire from a far. 

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Raise hydration to 70%, High gluten flour, cold overnight autolyse, 0.1% IDY in autolyse, 120% BF, 25 min rest, 8 x 250g baguettes

PFF      levain hydration    dough hydration    salt      dough batch size
11.8%          100%                     70%             2.0%          2000 + 30 for aliquot jar

285 [28 + 132 +132 - 7]    623g H2O + 62g bassinage    1039g HGW + 12g DM    23.60g salt
Make 292g levain (100%) by putting into the levain the excess water above what is needed to do the autolyse at 62% hydration

Process:
Combine the 1039g AP flour, 12g diastatic malt, + 1g IDY and 623g cold water and mix for 7 min at speed 0.  Knead a few turns until it is fully smooth and cover bowl with StretchTite and refrigerate overnight.  (Yielded 1668g net autolysed dough)

In the AM add the 285g levain and continue mixing for another 6 minutes at speed 0 to fully combine before moving to speed 4 to develop the gluten. Incorporate the salt during the first 2 min at speed 0.

57.8° after 5 min @speed 0
Mix at speed 4 in 2 minute increments until fully developed
61.4° @2 min on 4
65.0° @4 min on 4
Add 62g water
67.8° @6 min on speed 4.
70.4° @8 min on speed 4
73.1° @10 min on speed 4
74.4° @11 min on speed 4
(1.51°F/min)
71.6° after transfer to BF container and removal of 30g for aliquot jar

Take 30g for aliquot jar - add water up to 40ml mark

Ferment to ~120% of original volume (48 ml on aliquot jar)(~2:30 from start of mixing)
Divide into 8 parts (8 x 250g) and pre-shape (5 min), rest 25min, final shape (7 min).

Counter proof for 1:05
Aliquot jar =70ml  (30ml dough, 10ml water, 30ml expansion so about 30/30=100% dough volume increase)
[This 100% volume increase in the aliquot jar between the beginning of bulk fermentation and the end of counter proofing seems to be consistent from batch to batch]

Retard 2:30 @40°F to make it easier to slash

Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle

Analysis:

The crumb is more open than when mixing at 66.1% hydration, and adding 0.1% IDY in the diastatic malt and mixing it in with the flour before combining the water for the autolyse seems to have accelerated the bulk fermentation and shortened it by about an hour (3:30 to 2:30). There was a small amount of volume increase visible after the overnight cold autolyse (maybe a few percent). The last time I tried this with 0.065% IDY, there was no observable impact.  The fact that this batch required more mixing to reach acceptable gluten development is curious.  The temperature rise rate during mixing was also quite a bit less than last time, perhaps because of the added 62g of water and the resulting lower viscosity.

At 70% hydration, the dough was substantially harder to handle even when dividing and shaping at 20% bulk fermentation. The ears are hardly distinguishable - possibly because there were so many baguettes loaded at the same time that the rate of heating was inadequate to generate the required oven spring to open the slash.  Try backing down to 68% hydration.

The baguettes on the next to the top rack of the oven (the three baguettes on the right in the photo) have a darker crust. Perhaps this is because there was nothing above them.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

and there is nothing wrong with the look either.  Yeah, the scores are weak in comparison to your past dozen or so bakes, but now you've entered into the hydration and packed like sardines issues.  I'm going to throw my hat into the corner that says. that the hydration is the real culprit between the two, and that scoring lower hydration doughs has us working with a more compliant dough, hence more initial control over how they respond.

"At 70% hydration, the dough was substantially harder to handle..." Just as soon as we think we have it dialed in and are feeling our oats...Bam!, the dough reminds us of who is the boss!  

I'll go out on a limb and say that the majority of artisan baguettes sold in fine bakeries have a hydration that hovers around 67-68%.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

My guess is that the optimum hydration for the typical domestic commercial bread flour (if there is such a thing) is in the mid 60's (maybe 65-67%) so a baker would almost always want to work at the upper edge of what the labor can handle just to maximize the dough yield.  Probably lower in Europe and higher in Canada.

So my next run will be at 68%, with 0.1% IDY included in the autolyse, and I am going to drop back to the larger baguette size just because that is the baseline against which all of the comparisons should be made. I expect a crumb that is a little more open than last week and perhaps not quite as open as today's batch, but with better ears.  Should know in 24 hrs.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Trying to calculate your mixing time. Was it 48 or 56 min?

I’ve never attempted anything like that, but imagine the gluten is mixed to the absolute maximum.
How is the flavor?

It would be interesting to have to evaluate and compare the flavors of a bread mixed as above and another that was  lightly mixed by hand.

Your consistent and well documented bakes add real value to this CB. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Great crumb.  These baguettes remind me of the ones I was baking when I was somewhat overproofing them.  I’d have really open crumb but then the ears and grigne were lacking Doc. I wonder if adding the IDY to the autolyse is the culprit, any fermentation then would have your aliquot jar underestimating the degree of rise.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Benny - thank you!  That is a factor I had not even considered. I will make an adjustment to account for it. Probably add 1g of water to the aliquot jar.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Doc, have you considered adding the CY to your levain just before you mix it in the dough?

Is there some other reason to incorporate the CY in the autolyse?

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

The only reason I started adding CY to the dough was to reduce the end to end time. I have tried sprinkling it on the levain before combining the levain with the autolysed dough, dissolving it in a small amount of water with a pinch of sugar and adding it to the dough during gluten development, and adding it to the flour before mixing with water and beginning the autolyse. 

So far the best effect (in terms of speeding things up without introducing a detectable commercial yeast flavor to the resulting bread) has been to add it to the flour before beginning the autolyse.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Nice to see that you boys are still at it while I have been hard at work. Benny making jeweled slippers, Dan is doing Po'boys, Doc is stacking them up like cord wood and Geremy has finally laid down his markers. Alans CB will go on forever. I have a little break in the action to do some baking again so I mixed up some T65 wonderdust batons. This flour is not as robust as american AP but the flavor and texture is really incredible. The burnt ends taste nothing like other flours.

I was a little rusty from the layoff so the shaping, scoring and loading did not go as smoothly as before.

batons

Tapers, blunts and a barbell. My hands wanted to do them all.

alfanso angle

I wonder if the wetter dough leads to a thinner crust. These were 74% hydration which I am convinced helps to get a more open crumb.

crumb

The crumb did not suffer from the clumsy handling and scoring.

crumb up close

This flour does not seem to attain the volume and strength of US AP but it excels in the eating department.

The road goes on forever and the party never ends. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Don, the crumb is outstanding and the rustic look of your loaves are beautiful.

Today I baked Doc’s formula (without CY) using T65. I stopped at 65% hydration because the dough felt very slack. I have started mixing by hand and purposely not developing the gluten. When the T65 is fully developed it seems to handle much more water, but IMO the flavor is drastically compromised. I have gone as high as 72% in the past but that one used CY only and the gluten was highly developed. I wonder if the acid from sd only makes for a slacker dough at the same hydration?

Is your clientele back to normal? I assume you are back to fishing.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Is still being decided. People have been cooped up and are itching to get out. The fishing was good and so was the catching. The smoke from the fires provided some shade from the sun and may have also added a wood fired oven taste to the bread.

I find the T65 comes together quite quickly and will unknit if you work it too much. I mixed these less than a minute and stop when it tries to shred. I have had good results from doing the last fold an hour after being in the fridge. I have not used SD with the french flour so I don't know how it would respond.

Benito's picture
Benito

Dan would there be much acid from the levain at the time of mixing? I’d say your dough felt slacker because of your relative humidity compared with Don’s.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Good question, Benny. The thought may be wrong.

Maybe developing the T65 allows higher hydration. So much to learn.

Benito's picture
Benito

Wow great ears at a high hydration Don and also incredible open crumb too.  That bake has it all.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Doc has enjoyed so much success with his baguettes, I decided to try his formula using sd only and T65 flour. I deviated in that the dough was mixed by hand and purposely did not highly develop the gluten. The idea was that hopefully a great tasting french flour textured bread would be produced. The bread was chewy and required a strong bite. The flavor produced by CY only is much more to my liking. I failed in both categories, but the experiment added to my repertoire of knowledge.

I used this bake to test Tom’s Steam Curtain. Those results were mixed. The crust was shiny and there were a few blisters (a great Improvement over my typical breads), but the bread baked extremely pale and required 26 min @ 550F. Normally baguettes are baked in 16-18 min @ 550F. I assume the conversion to steam zapped a lot of heat from the oven. There are many mysteries that I’ve yet to uncover.

The bottom loaf was too long for the smaller stone used for the steam curtain. I was glad to have saved it, but it won’t win any beauty contest.

 

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Dan the close up shot of the one baguette, the crust almost looks wrinkled as if it collapsed a bit, is it possible that it over proofed a bit?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I think the dough was under-proofed. I say that because the dough was BF to exactly 25% increase using a precise aliquot measurement. And after BF the dough was shaped, then retarded without any RT proofing. It was baked cold. No CY was used. So, I can’t imagine it was over-fermented.

The shaped dough was not poofy at the time of slashing.

The ability to discern over-proofing from under-proofing is difficult to discern, IMO. Cases like this one lends credence to that. We don’t know what we don’t know :-)

Benito's picture
Benito

Maybe what I’m seeing is the effect of the steaming and baking then.  I agree, hard to imagine overproofing with your methods.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Benny, I may venture into Final Proofing at RT and throw care to the wind at scoring time. I think it may be worth a try. Most of us, including myself are intimidated when it comes to scoring warm baguettes.

Benito's picture
Benito

I used to do it and was always scared that the dough would totally deflate, it is an awful sight to see the wrinkles as your score the skin of the dough.  It was bad enough that, as you know, I’ve gone back to putting the dough back in the fridge.  Now, I haven’t tried scoring warm dough since I’ve greatly reduce bulk fermentation.  When I was scoring warm dough it was also the dough that was somewhat overproofed so I wonder now with reduced fermentation if it would be less scary.  The pros score warm don’t they?

Benito's picture
Benito

duplicate 

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

This was supposed to be built at 68% hydration (down from 70%), but the way it got mixed, it turned into 69.6% and it behaved like it through the whole process, High gluten flour, cold overnight autolyse, 0.13% IDY in autolyse, 120% BF, 35 min rest, 4 x 425g baguettes

PFF     levain hydration    dough hydration    salt      total batch size
12.0%         100%                     68.0%          2.0%         1700+30
247 levain from (28 + 112 + 112 - 5)    538 + 40 H2O    886g HGW + 10g DM + 1.3g IDY    20.35g salt
Make 252g levain (100%) by putting into the levain the excess water above what is needed to do the autolyse at 60% hydration (in the future plan 8g extra for mixer and bowl losses)

Process:
combine the 886g AP flour, 10g diastatic malt, + 1.3g IDY and 538g cold water and mix for 7 min at speed 0.  Knead a few turns until it is fully smooth and cover bowl with StretchTite and refrigerate overnight.  (Yielded 1427g net autolysed dough)

In the AM add the 252g levain and continue mixing for another 4 minutes at speed 0 to fully combine before moving to speed 4 to develop the gluten. Incorporate the salt during the first 2 min at speed 0.
Temperature vs mixing time:
58.2° after 5 min @speed 0
Mix at speed 4 in 2 minute increments until fully developed
 61.9° @2 min on 4
 65.1° @4 min on 4
Add 40g water
67.3° @6 min on speed 4
69.0° @8 min on speed 4
70.7° @10 min on speed 4
72.4° @12 min on speed 4
74.3° @14 min on speed 4
76.4° @16 min on speed 4
77.6° @17 min on speed 4
78.6° @18 min on speed 4
Temp rise rate decreases over time as the dough viscosity goes down, then increases as gluten development makes the dough stronger
Take 30g for aliquot jar - add water up to 42ml mark

Ferment to ~120% of original volume (48 ml on aliquot jar)(~2:00 from start of mixing)
Divide into 4 parts (8 x 425g) and pre-shape (5 min), rest 35min, final shape (7 min).

Counter proof for 1:00
Aliquot jar =60ml

Retard 4:00 @40°F for timing and to make it easier to slash

Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle

Analysis:

At 69.6% hydration, the dough was not much easier to handle than at 70%.

The dough behaved differently today with the temperature rise during mixing starting out steep, declined somewhat as the dough warmed up, and then went up again as the gluten developed and made the dough more resistant.  Eighteen minutes of high speed mixing seems excessive but until then the dough was not forming a good window pane and was not fully smooth.

On the final loaves, the ears were indistinct and the crumb was quite open.  It still seemed to have been over-fermented even though I started to divide 30 min earlier and with about 2% less volume increase relative to the prior batch (at 70% hydration).

The pre-shaped baguettes rested for a full 35 minutes (10 min longer than yesterday) and bench proofed for only 60 min before being retarded.  When it came time to slash, the dough handled well, but the scoring cut through a lot of air pockets that were just below the surface.  The reduced extensibility is probably the source of the somewhat closed crumb at the ends of the cut baguette.

As Benny pointed out, the fact that the yeast is active during the autolyse means that there is already some dough volume increase prior to the end of mixing which I had not previously accounted for.  And because I put in 1/4t of IDY rather than separately weighing exactly 1g, it had an extra 300mg in the batch which probably helped accelerate the bulk fermentation even further.

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Hard to argue with the quality of the crumb Doc, slightly overproofed gives amazing crumb, but just compromises the other aspects of the baguette.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Today I made sure that everything was in place and ready to divide when the dough got to 20% volume increase. Working at a more accurate 66% hydration makes everything easier. And compensating for things like 8g of dough that’s sticks to the equipment, the 6g of water coating the fermentation container and 15g of flour accumulated from the mat and couche  made the divided loaves all hit their target weight. 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

So I ordered this 18" long hardwood cutting board for shaping baguettes to an exact 18" length. Also, I feel the wood is much more conducive to a good outcome. I also added a couple of more measuring vessels. 1 liter S/S and 150 ml, Glass. I am not too concerned with the accuracy or the increments, as everything hits the scale. I do like to have everything weight out and ready. Oh, the glass cups are straight-sided, very nice. 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Will, I use that exact glass for my Aliquot Jar. In that case the ml marks are very helpful. 1ml of volume is equal to 1g of water weight. That makes water calculations very east to convert volume displacement to water weight.

I used THIS SCRIBE to mark over the ml marks that are painted on the glass. After the marks are scribed a marks-a-lot is painted over the marks, the the excess ink is rubbed off with a paper towel. Doing that removes the concern about the painted marks coming off during washing down the road.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

That's why I mentioned they are straight-sided! do you find them to be sturdy? Look at how they were shipped and they survived! 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The glass is holding up well for me. Only have one, would hate to break it.

Bad image, but this is how the marks are permanently etched into the glass.

Tom M's picture
Tom M

Hi Danny,

I bought the same jar on your recommendation.  Thanks!  One note: you've probably thought of this, but an unmarked jar (or marks between marks) can be scribed in the same way to the level of water by added weight.  For example, 5 grams water = 5 ml water.  

--Tom

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Thanks Tom. Have you seen THIS LINK?

It is really nice that 1ml of water is equal to 1g. With water, milliliter volume equals water weight in grams.

Tom M's picture
Tom M

Yes, that’s where I saw your jar.  I was a little amused by your hypothetical measurements to 0.01 ml.  That’s why I suggested you might want to scribe intermediate graduations.  :)  :)

I bookmarked that post and plan to follow it in my next bake.  Thanks!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Tom, where did I mention “0.01 ml”. I’m pretty detailed but that takes the cake :-)

Tom M's picture
Tom M

“From the above it is determined that the 30g dough displaces 27.52ml (or grams) of water.

For this example a 25% rise is targeted.
27.52*0.25=6.88

...

Once the water level in the Aliquot jar rises to 46.88ml the fermentation of the bread dough is complete.”

Benito's picture
Benito

LOL, I’m usually not that specific but because I have my trusty syringe to add water I actually do the weights to 0.01 g accuracy, only because I can.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Most of the baguette bakers have said they eat their day old and older baguettes, toasted. Try taking your serrated knife and cutting a crosshatch pattern in the crumb, then toasting. The texture is interesting and the crevices are nice when spreading condiments.

Benito's picture
Benito

Very interesting idea Dan, is that something common in Louisiana?  I shall try that.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

No, not really. Just tried it and liked the results.

Benito's picture
Benito

You did a good job with the name.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

one week old diet!  I figure that I can cheat a little around the edges and still have some of my morning toast, but these beasts are going to test my will power!

I had to give Don's Bouabsa method a shot, except that I shaped and returned to retard for the few final hours before the bake.  

The dough was extremely elastic, rolled out to 18 inches, but shrunk back to 16.  I think that had I pre-shaped a longer cylinder I might not have had as much of an elasticity issue.  Even after post-shape hibernation in retard, the dough was so incredibly soft that the blade left saw-toothed marks as it worked through the scoring.  One of the more difficult executions of scoring for me in any recent time.

The blob-headed baguette was caused by one of the scores not going through the dough halfway down, hence the pinched waist and the fat head.  Grr.  However, the oven spring was explosive and the crumb is quite open.   The one baguette that I was able to wrangle a good shape out of, definitely shows the capability of this formula and the bake.

  

If anyone's tracking circumferences, the handsome fella is 16 inches long and 6 inches around.

330g x 3 long batards

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Alan, these are extremely interesting. Love the rustic look. Do you have a link for your formula? Wondering if Don may have tweaked it lately.

To what do you attribute such explosive oven spring?

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Standard 75% hydration, 2% salt, 0.16% IDY.  Autolyse w/IDY 20 min.  Incorporate salt & bassinage. "mix a couple of minutes by hand, rest 10 minutes, mix again for a couple more minutes." BF 2 hrs, coil folds at 40 & 80.  Retard 16 hrs., divide into 290g pieces, letter fold, rest 15-20 min., shape & proof 45 min.  Bake 480dF w/steam 10 min, release steam rotate and 14 min more.

My version: IDY whisked into water, incorporate the water and flour the barest minimum prior to autolyse, 20 min.  Bassinage with salted water in 2-3 consecutive additions, pinch and fold between each addition.  Rest 5 min.  20 French Folds, rest 5 min., 20 FFs. BF 110 min.  Letter Folds at 40 & 80, the gentlest possible.  Retard overnight.  Next day divide, pre-shape as gently as possible int short cylinders, rest 20 min., shape, couche back to retard for the final hours.   Bake 480dF w/steam 13 min, release steam rotate and 10 min more, 2 min venting.

I think that the BF went too long and the dough was past the stage at which it should have been retarded.   Even after return to retard the dough was way too flaccid to score well.  Maybe I babied the shaping too much in an attempt at being extra-gentle in all phases, and the skin was not tight enough.

That oven spring IS the Bouabsa oven spring.  Very typical for the bread to bake like that. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Alan, what flour are you using? I can’t pull off 75% with T65.

what would you estimate the percentage of BF rise 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

In the standard tupperware container I use, it started at the 32 oz. mark and after almost 2 hrs. topped out at the 48 oz. mark.  I typical am more aggressive at eh Letter folds, so I know that the "normal" BF wouldn't take it that far.  Next time, I think that I'll cut the BF at 90 min.

The regular formula that I'd always followed for the Bouabsa has folds at 20, 40 & 60 min, and retard after the 3rd fold.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I’ll start a Bouabsa with KAAP today!

According to you info you went with a 50% rise. when you consider that the dough rose during the folds, your rise according to Aliquot would be even more, I think.

Considering 30-35% of BF rise using an Aliquot jar?

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

But I do feel that the overly ginger Letter Folds yielded a dough that had more image of growth that It might otherwise have had.  So, yes, maybe shoot for 30-35% BF.

I'm now down to 40 FFs (from 300!).  At least with a dough this malleable and hydrated.

Benito's picture
Benito

I can’t believe how much you’ve cut back on your French Folds.  So comparing your results now with fewer FF vs your earlier results with much more FF, what would you say is the difference if any between fewer or more FFs?

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I can only guess that there is less of a well-mixed dough going into BF and the gluten develops during the BF.

Looking back, I had made a similar run at the Bouabsa's at the end of August.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64622/community-bake-baguettes-alfanso?page=5#comment-467902

I'm not sure that I can truly ID differences yet, although I'll stick with a more robust FF mix for doughs that are fairly drier.

Benito's picture
Benito

Wow remarkable crumb, so open and airy, very very nice Alan.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

except for the ciabatta types of bread, but as long as that is the flavor of the day, I might as well work at getting that under my belt too.  Now going to get another slice under my belt...

Benito's picture
Benito

Well you certainly got the open crumb whether you were trying or not with these Bouabsas.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

By jove! I do believe you have got it. Nice looking crumb your holiness. Tell Benny to step aside;-) I recognize the stringy, webby grigne as a good sign of whats inside. That's some explosive bloom on those babies! On one of these pages I think I posted the method I have been using and it is pretty much as you stated minus the cold retard in the couche and no slap in folds. I went through a period of a tight crumb a few years ago from the joy of slapping and folding too much. I still do it for sourdough but less and less. The short mix is the way to go for this recipe. If it is too elastic you should shorten the RT bulk or maybe develop less gluten. I have also found too much tension in the pre-shape will also inhibit elongation.

Scoring @RT is a challenge and can lead to a jagged ear but I think it makes for a thinner crust. Did you proof seam up? I never liked the powdered donut look but a little flour on the couche does help with scoring room temp batons. Mine always deflate after scoring but they do bounce back.

I suppose a little Nutella would be off the diet menu.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

“ Mine always deflate after scoring but they do bounce back.

That statement paints an excellent picture. That really helps...

Can you paint another picture describing your shaped dough at the end of the Final Proof and just before scoring?

I jumped on the Bouabsa wagon and it is BF now. Mixed it at 71.23% hydration. Will try a retarded BF and plan to score warm.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

When I take it out of the fridge I divide it and pre-shape and rest them seam up. After 15 or 20 minutes I shape them and proof them for 40 minutes seam up. They do respond to the poke test and grow slightly while proofing. I can see grey bubbles inside the dough is the cue I look for but they always end up in the oven in just under an hour after removing from the fridge. Mine are still round before I score them but flatten out as they are loaded. I bake them at 480 for 24 minutes with steam pan on the top rack for 10 minutes. I would recommend you forgo the 550 this one time and see what happens.

If they are real elastic you can force them because they are very resilient for me YRMV I can't wait to see them but I will be fishing tomorrow. So I will look in when I get home.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Don, take a look at this. The opinion of others are also welcomed.

I decided to blindly follow your method of a stretch and fold after the dough (Bouabsa) retarded for an hour. Here is what the dough looked like after 1 hr in bulk retard and just before a light stretch and fold was performed.

Am I on the right track? You can see the indentation where the Aliquot Jar is placed. The dough, according to the aliquot had risen slightly since refrigerating.

 By the way, I copied your instructions above about handling of the dough once the bulk retard is complete. I plan to try that tomorrow. Thanks...

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Is all you need to know that the yeast is already active. I have been doing a fold after it has been in the fridge for an hour. It helps to tuck it in for bed it adds some strength and avoids the big gas bubble in the morning.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I know from the first score line and even before, when I touch the dough with my hand while bringing the blade down, whether I'll have trouble or not.

No, still the wayward prodigal son and couching seam side down. I'm not too certain that I could have pre-shaped these with any more TLFC and gentle touch, so that will remain a bit of a head scratcher for the immediate future.  I'd rather not resort to adding Nutritional Yeast if I can avoid it, but this mix's elasticity surely would have prospered from it.

Thanks for the moral support!  alan

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

When they have gone too far along in the bulk is when they are strong and elastic. I have had to shape them very aggressively at times and over elongate them to allow for the snap back, they seem to come out of it just fine. I pat down and shape gently but I roll them out with some force. The topside down in the couche will dry the  skin out for easier scoring. 

The moral of the story is: If it was easy anyone could do it and if I can do it anyone can.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Alan, do you think it would benefit to skip the pre-shape and go directly to shaping in an effort to have a more extensible dough?

alfanso's picture
alfanso

you could get away with it.  Might well be worth a try.  

Next time through, I'll abide by the shorter BF, and longer pre-shape barrel.  And couche, upside down, dang it!

Benito's picture
Benito

It makes sense that couching seam side up would help with scoring.  If part of the purpose is to dry the skin and have a skin form, the having the couche contact the area of the dough that will be scored it logical.  Maybe this is the reason many couche seam side up.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I couche with the seam up, but I don’t like the way the dough doesn’t sit flat on the peel once it is inverted. The seam side is curved instead of being flat. Not a big deal, though.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Reduced hydration to 66%, 12% PFF, High gluten flour, cold overnight autolyse, 0.1% IDY in autolyse, 120% BF, 35 min rest, 4 x 425g baguettes

PFF       levain hydration     dough hydration       salt        total batch weight
12.0%            100%                   66.0%              2.0%               1738
248 levain from (28 + 114 + 114)    553 H2O + (6g in 5 liter Cambro)    900g HGW + 10g DM + 1.0g IDY    20.7g salt

Process:
Combine the 900g AP flour, 10g diastatic malt, + 1.0g IDY and 553g cold water and mix for 7 min at speed 0.  Knead a few turns until it is fully smooth and cover bowl with StretchTite and refrigerate overnight.  (Yielded 1455g net autolysed dough)

In the AM add the 248g levain to the autolysed flour/water and mix for 5 minutes at speed 0 to fully combine before moving to speed 4 to develop the gluten. Incorporate the salt during this interval at speed 0.
Temperature vs mixing time:
57.3° after 5 min @speed 0
Mix at speed 4 in 2 minute increments until fully developed
60.7° @2 min on speed 4
64.4° @4 min on speed 4
67.8° @6 min on speed 4
71.9° @8 min on speed 4

Take 30g for aliquot jar - add water up to 42ml mark

Ferment to ~120% of original volume ( water level rises to the 48 ml mark on aliquot jar)(~2:00 from start of mixing)[don’t wait for the water to reach 48ml, be ready for it and divide dough as soon as it gets there)
Divide into 4 parts (8 x 425g) and pre-shape (5 min), rest covered for 35min, final shape (7 min).

Counter proof for 0:45
Aliquot jar = 60ml

Retard 2:00 @50°F to make it easier to slash

Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle

425g at pre-shape; 335g when cooled. 8-9" in circumfrence, 21" long on the pan and 19" long when cool

Analysis:

This is my new baseline formulation for baguettes made with levain and high gluten flour.
The flour and water were combined at 60% hydration and cold autolysed for 10 hrs. Then in the morning the levain and the cold autolysed dough were combined, salt added, followed by gluten development at 66% hydration.  This might be reversed with gluten development occurring at 60% followed by mixing in the levain and then the salt.  The dough was easy to handle and needed no additional folding during bulk fermentation.

When they started to expand in the oven, I wondered if I was going to have a few loaves that all looked like a fat snake that had swallowed a family of rats (there was a bulge for every slash along the length of the loaf) but after they had fully baked, most of the irregularity had evened itself out and they are pretty straight.

Dividing and pre-shaping were straight forward without any sense that the dough was over fermented.  These rolled out a little short of the desired 21", but the pre-shaped dough pieces were a little longer than I usually make them, so I will try to make them about another inch longer to begin with and see how that works out.

Some wrinkles when slashing, but nice texture and not over-proofed. I continue to want to make slashes that migrate from one side of the loaf to the other but keep forgetting after I pick up the lame.  You can see the way the slashes cause the loaf to twist during baking - the objective would be to position the slashes to prevent, compensate for, or undo that twist.

Great color, nice crumb, excellent flavor.


DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Is it possible the first slash was started before the very end of the loaf? The un-scored dough at the very tip could cause the loaf to pull downward (in this case). Then each consecutive slash would pull less and less unti the last slash (right side) is the most relaxed.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

The rotation is caused by the local displacement of the surface as each slash opens and the dough expands perpendicular to the slash. The total rotation is the sum of the individual contributions.  I will try making adjustments and observe what happens.

Benito's picture
Benito

Again Doc beautiful crumb, you have things dialed in just perfectly now.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Design:

PFF        levain hydration   dough hydration    salt   total batch size
12.0%            100%                   66.0%           2.0%       1738
248 levain from (28 + 114 + 114)    553 H2O + (6g in 5 liter Cambro)    900g HGW + 10g DM + 1.0g IDY    20.7g salt
Make 248g levain (100%)


Process:
Combine the 900g AP flour, 10g diastatic malt, + 1.0g IDY and 553g warm (115°F) water and mix for 8 min at speed 0.  Knead a few turns until it is fully smooth (91.5°F) and cover bowl with StretchTite and refrigerate overnight.  (Yielded 1455g net autolysed dough)

In the AM add the 252g levain on top of the (40°F) autolysed dough and mix for 5 minutes at speed 0 to fully combine before moving to speed 4 to develop the gluten. Incorporated the salt during this period of mixing.  Dough temperature was a little warmer than yesterday, perhaps because of the 115°F water that I used for wetting the flour last night.  The dough rose about 5/8” overnight in the bowl and was 40°F when removed from the refrigerator instead of 38° as it has been previously.

Temperature vs mixing time:
57.5° after 5 min @speed 0 (which was not much different from yesterday)
Mix at speed 4 in 2 minute increments until fully developed
61.2° @2 min on speed 4
64.5° @4 min on speed 4
67.9° @6 min on speed 4
72.2° @8 min on speed 4
(1.83°/min) This batch mixed quite a bit faster than yesterday for reasons I do not fully understand (faster temperature increase and less total mix time).  Up to the beginning of the speed 4 mixing, the only difference was one extra minute of mixing prior to the autolyse and the very warm (115°F) water used to wet the flour.  That may have been enough to get the gluten development off to a rapid start so that the dough developed some strength overnight during the cool down and long autolyse.  In any event, during the last 2 minutes of mixing, the temperature increase was significantly greater than during the earlier 2-min increments and that was the interval during which the dough smoothed out and at the end of which I was able to pull a very nice window pane.


Take 30g for aliquot jar - add water up to 42ml mark

Ferment to <120% of original volume (~47 ml on aliquot jar)(~2:15 from start of mixing).  The dough was divided a little earlier than yesterday and handled nicely.  It was pre-shaped by rolling into puffy long cylinders and sealing them and rolling them in some flour to keep them from sticking to the Silpat.  After the 30 min rest, final shapig ad rolling to length was easy with very good extensibility and no post-shaping snap-back.
The dough was divided into 4 parts by cutting off strips from the long dimension of the BF container (8 x 425g) and pre-shaping into long cylinders (5 min), rest 30min, final shape (6 min).

Counter proof for 0:45
Aliquot jar = 60ml at end of proof. 

Retrospectively, they should have probably proofed for another 15 - 30 minutes since they were shaped a little early. The proofed dough was still somewhat supple and not soft or flabby.  Since I was going to retard at 50°F I thought that in cooling somewhat more slowly, they might proof a little more but that was not obvious when they were pulled from the retarder to go to the oven.

Retard 1:30 @50°F to make it easier to slash

Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle

Next time rotate BF container 90° when turning out the dough onto the silicone mat so that the strips that are cut wind up being shorter
Dough was easy to handle and probably should have bench proofed a while longer.  It was very easy to both pre-shape and shape so that the dough was handled  very gently.  I wonder if this negatively impacts the final crumb character.

Two of the loaves (top two in the photo) were scored such that the cuts progressed from the middle of the top of the baguette around the loaf in a counter-clockwise direction which did tend to compensate for the tendency of the loaf to twist as the slashes opened. The top loaf was scored slowly, about 2 minutes prior to oven entry, was scored straight down, and both the starting and ending points of each successive score advanced to the left as I worked down the baguette.  The second from the top had a similar placement for the scores but the slashes were intentionally made deeper and the scores slightly longer.  The last two were done hurriedly and it shows.

Benito's picture
Benito

The overproofing is solved I’d say now, yet the crumb still looks great, maybe just a touch less open but not significantly so.  It is very remarkable how evenly open the crumb is everywhere on your sliced baguette though, very very nice.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Running low on T65, so KA AP flour was used to mix a Bouabsa. For me 75% and AP flour seems awfully slack. So I mixed all ingredients at once using 65% hydration. After a brief mix the dough was rested 20 min. While waiting I weighed 10% hydration of water in a bowl.  After the rest the dough was mixed using Rubaud and the mixing hand was lightly dipped in the bowl of water to up the hydration and also stop the dough from sticking to my hands. This process continued for about 5 minutes until the dough felt right to me. The remaining water in the bowl was weighed and i5 was determined that the final hydration of the dough was 71.23%.

2 sets of coil folds were performed every 30 minutes. An Aliquot jar was used and the Room temp BF was complete once it rose 30%. The dough was placed in the fridge @ 38F. After an hour of refrigeration, the dough was lightly folded one more time. Total retardation was 22 hr.

Don’s following instructions were closely followed.
” When I take it out of the fridge I divide it and pre-shape and rest them seam up. After 15 or 20 minutes I shape them and proof them for 40 minutes seam up. They do respond to the poke test and grow slightly while proofing. I can see grey bubbles inside the dough is the cue I look for but they always end up in the oven in just under an hour after removing from the fridge. Mine are still round before I score them but flatten out as they are loaded. I bake them at 480 for 24 minutes with steam pan on the top rack for 10 minutes. I would recommend you forgo the 550 this one time and see what happens.

If they are real elastic you can force them because they are very resilient for me.


The only steam used was Sylvia’s Steam Towels. They were baked at 480F for 20 min total time. The only deviation from the instructions above is I forgot to shape one of the pre-shaped doughs (shown below on the bottom loaf) and this was negatively affected the final produce. 

 

The texture and chew was super, but the flavor (KAAP) was basically bland. T65 has a way of making a “flour snob” out of a baguette Connoisseur.

 

I learned something... The actual colors of the bread are very close and accurate when shot against a white background. Both the color of the crust and crumb are extremely representative of the bread. Not so much with other backgrounds.

 



For best viewing of video below use THIS LINK

 The ears are a project for another day. I am confident this can be dialed in. I am very pleased with the bite and chew. The flavor should be easily rectified with the French T65.


Thanks for your help, Don. This bake has been a leap in my learning process.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

The holes and the glossy shine look great and the fermentation was spot on. It really is an easy recipe to get nice results. I should add that I do a short mix and rest for 10 minutes and mix again ala Trevor Wilson. How was the shaping and scoring? Your oven has too much top heat. When is the Rofco being delivered?:-)  I'd say with your success this time you could dip into the T65 for next time but be prepared for nirvana.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Don, shaping was moderately difficult. Nothing any of us couldn’t do, because we’ve all gained a lot of experience through this CB. The dough was slack and slightly sticky. The roll out to length (~21”) was a breeze. No pull back or shrinkage.

Because the mixing was light the crumb was a yellowish/amber. Not sure why this crumb was so glossy. I’ve over mixed before and produced a tougher, bright white and tasteless crumb. I am certain that more intense mixing will allow more water and ears. 

Where this dough differed from others was the size and amount of air pockets during shaping. It was evident that open crumb was soon to manifest. Even though the dough was airy, shaping went well.

I am presently pondering the explanation and reason for the open crumb. At this time I have no answer, butbwe know it works, whatever “it” is. Maybe RT final proof?

As for the over head heat. Next bake I’ll try to remember to place an aluminum foil shield on a top shelf under the heating element to deflect the radiation from the upper element. This has worked well in the past.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

The glossy crumb comes from the long ferment. It looks like the hydration was enough to open up the crumb and still allow for easy shaping and handling. I am not certain that more intensive mixing will make for more pronounced ears but it would lead to a tighter crumb. I would look towards a shorter proof or more tension in the shaping for more ears. If your dough is not expanding in the fridge, the last fold of the cooling dough may not be necessary. I forgot to mention that I shoot for a 74 degree dough temperature when mixing. What was the weight of the divided dough? Mine end up around 290 grams per baton when I start with 500 grams of flour.

A sheet pan on the top rack for steaming should shield them from the top heat. I Can't wait to see how the T65 works for you with this recipe. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Don, “ The glossy crumb comes from the long ferment.” I’ve done countless long ferments that failed to produced shiny crumb. Do you always get shiny crumb from your Bouabsa?

” intensive mixing will make for more pronounced ears but it would lead to a tighter crumb.” A couple of weeks ago, I was definitely in your camp. BUT, Doc blew that conception out of the window. Look at his crumb! I know what a spiral mixer does to dough and he is highly developing the gluten.

” A sheet pan on the top rack for steaming should shield them from the top heat.” I can place a full size sheet pan on the second highest rack and place a couple of towels soaked in very hot water for steam. Or a Steam Curtain could also be setup there.

The dough shows no sign of rise in the fridge. Please check the temp of a glass of water, located where the bread dough is placed, that was left in your fridge for 6 hours.

For this batch I chose to mimic Doc. Each dough was ~400g and 21” long.

I estimate the DT during the RT BF @ ~76F.

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

This is a very long conversation to follow but I wish to chime in on two points. Glossy crumb and shrink back. 

I'm forming ideas on glossy crumb (i'm not sure if you see it as an advantage of not) but I think there are 3 things at play here. Firstly the strength of the flour. Higher gluten content will result in a more glossy crumb. This will be exasperated by the next two points which are the autolyse and long ferment time. If you wish to avoid the glossy crumb but use very strong flour and an extended ferment time then drop the autolyse. Or use a less strong flour, minimal autolyse and aim for less ferment time. Or some combination of these ideas. 

Second point is shrinkage. Are you talking about pre or post bake of the baguettes? If it's post bake then don't take the baguettes out of the oven once baked. Crack the oven door open and leave to cool slowly. This will help prevent the baked baguettes from shrinking.

 

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Do you see much additional volume growth during 22 hrs of retard at 38°F?  You note that you did fold lightly once, I am wondering if that was driven by a desire to build some more strength or keep it from getting too big.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Doc, neither the actual dough or the Aliquot jar showed any rise during the retard.

The only reason I folded the cold dough was blind faith in Don’s instructions. Actually, I hated doing it :-)
But, I will fold again. The results were too promising not too.

Benito's picture
Benito

Beautiful crumb Dan, I think this is the type of crumb you have been working towards.  I think the Bouasba is an awesome formula and it really works to give a wonderful crumb doesn’t it? You must be so happy.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

right on the stick after we texted.  Good shaping, opened scores, and nice open crumb.  Ears on the grigne are another skill on this bread to be learned still. 

But two things perplex me.  How was it that you had complete extensibility when Don and I find the dough to be elastic?  My curiosity at executing some simple changes mentioned elsewhere recently, led me to another mix yesterday, and when I shaped this morning it was again fairly elastic.

As Bouabsa was my first successful baguette I've baked it enough times, though intermittently, and never found the crust to be anything but extremely crisp and crunchy.  Yet your version squeezes like Wonder bread.  I know you like the softer crust, but I didn't think that it was possible with this formula. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Alan, the question about extensibilty. I don’t know. I used KAAP @ 71.23% hydration.

Could it be that all ingredients were lightly mixed by hand at 65% and rested 20 min. Then a bowl filled with 10% of the flour weight in water was added in tiny amounts with slightly wet hands to gradually increase hydration and prevent dough from sticking to my hands?

The resulting relaxed gluten may account for the extensibility and also the inability of the straps to stretch and not break.

The dough was slack and easily extended during the pre-shape and shape. When moving the shaped dough to the couche I had to be careful to not stretch it longer. There was no shrink back that I remember.

Tip - for those that don't know, handling wet dough with latex gloves prevents a lot of sticking problems. Any stuck dough comes off the glove(s) easily. I wash mine and reuse them a few times. I got the idea from one of Alan’s YouTube videos.

Benito's picture
Benito

This was a bit of a disaster, ok maybe that is a bit dramatic, but because of a really boneheaded mistake of mine, it didn’t turn out as well as it might have.  What would be a critical thing to miss doing related to the start of baking your baguettes?  Steaming, no I remembered that and it was all set up, boiling water poured into the cast iron skillet.  Let’s see I loaded the baguettes and they’re in there on the hot baking steel steam doing its thing.  Maybe 1.5 minutes into steaming, OMG I didn’t score the baguettes!!!!!  Have you ever wondered what baguettes would look like it you forgot to score them, then took them out, scored them as they were just starting to rise?  Now the dough is warm instead of cold after having had them in the fridge for 60 minutes to firm up to score.  Opening the oven of course lets the built up steam out.  OK I’m sure I was reading your minds and did this just to educate you about this so you wouldn’t make this mistake ever.

I don’t think even the magic of Alan’s copyrighted camera angles can save these.

I won’t go into what I did with fermentation and the aliquot jar.

I forgot to give credit to David Snyder for his formula.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

They still look pretty good!

Benito's picture
Benito

OK Dan you’re right they’re not all that bad, the crumb somehow turned out quite well despite my boneheaded move that did compromise the oven spring as they are flatter than normal.  These had 6% whole red fife and 5% whole rye.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

The crumb is excellent per usual for you no matter the recipe. Well done! In the spirit of DMSnyder they should be called Toronto Sourdough Baguettes. How was the flavor and texture with the whole grain and SD only. What was the hydration? Forgetting to score is a lame excuse;-}

Benito's picture
Benito

The flavour is fine, they aren’t my favourite flavour wise, the sesame semolina are hard to beat for that now.  The texture well, the crust is somewhat thicker than other baguettes I’ve made, I wonder if that is because these spent a bit longer in the couche than others.  I guess I’m not as scared of scoring a room temperature baguette now considering I’ve just scored albeit poorly very very warm baguettes.  Because I don’t have a good excuse all I have is this lame one.  Thanks Don.

kendalm's picture
kendalm

How do you do it benny ??? 

Benito's picture
Benito

Apparently you need to load unscored dough into the steamed oven then pull them after 1.5-2 minutes releasing the steam and dropping the temperature of your oven. Score the rising dough deflating them and then load them back in the oven. LOL
Perhaps it is related to my not manipulating the dough much during bulk and giving the dough a good pat down before shaping?  I’m also still not where I’d like to be with shaping so in the end they don’t get a proper rolling, this probably leaves the cells round.  I really don’t know Geremy. 

Our Crumb's picture
Our Crumb

KH BaggieOK I didn't bake this.  I bought it at Chef Jeff's home office in Norwich, VT, a stop on our Fall Color weekend itinerary.  Beautiful location "in the hills of old Vermont" as the song says.

More impressive actually was the dazzling array of local bakery sourced breads on offer at the City Market/Onion River Coop, a grocery up in Burlington.  On the order of ten area bakehouses supply bread for their shelves, most of which look stunning.  The winner for our dollars was Red Hen's 100% ww SD.  The best 100% whole wheat hearth bread we've ever had.  Cakey soft open crumb under a sturdy crust.  Superb adorned with local cultured VT butter.

Happy Fall, bakers,

Tom

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

When you proof the baguettes in the couche is it seam side up or seam side down? 

Benito's picture
Benito

Not sure who you were asking Abe, but since I’m on the site right now I’ll answer first.  I proof seam side up.  I like to be able to see the seam so I know for sure where it is so I can ensure it ends of on the bottom when baking.  And if the idea of the couche is partly to slightly dry out the skin which helps create the ear then it makes sense to have that side in full contact with the couche to me.

Benny

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

Appreciate your answer Benny. Your way makes sense to me. While watching a few videos on baguette baking often they seem (oops pun there) to proof seam side down, then flip over onto a board (so seam side up) then flip it back over to seam side down. However there is benefit from flipping the dough over, to bake, after proofing. Helps with he crumb etc. So it makes sense to me to proof seam side up then bake seam side down. You must flip it twice then? 

Benito's picture
Benito

No I flip only once from the couche to the transfer board.  I give the proofed baguettes a gentle hop off the board seam side down to seam side down to the parchment lined peel in my case a cookie sheet.

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

So proof seam side up, flip over onto the seam then hop/slide onto the stone. I think this is the better way rather than proofing and baking seam side down.

Thanks Benny.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I find that the top (side without the seam) is more uniform when proofed in contact with the couche.  I use a pair of double-weight corrugated cardboard peels to make the transfer.  One peel is used to roll the baguette over on the couche so that it is seam down, then I roll it again to put it on the other peel (seam up), then roll it over again onto the pan (Rational Teflon-coated perforated 1/2-sheet) with the seam down again.  Then they get painted with water using a 1" nylon-bristle paint brush, topped with kosher salt (averaging ~1.1g/baguette), then slashed (usually when the oven signals that it has reached the target temperature/humidity).

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

I think proofing and baking this way makes sense. Flipping a dough to bake would make a better crumb. This is why I was asking after seeing videos where they proof and bake seam side down. 

Thanks for confirming this Doc Dough. Right now I can't bake baguettes due to my set-up but i'm prepping for when I can. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

For lo those many centuries that I've been baking baguettes, I never couched seam side up more than 4-5 times.  Most recently the past week - once.  Outside of the inevitable occasional dud, I doubt there are many who would say that I can't get a good grigne with regularity.  The couche is also covering, and in contact with the "anti-seam" side. 

And I find it infinitely easier to flip the dough onto the hand peel from the couche, and then onto the oven peel.  My few videos out there demonstrate that - and the subsequent grigne.

Swimming against the tide here...

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

Well that is certainly a very good argument for the other side. You proof seam side down and still produce baguettes that I envy (in a good envy way)!

The reason why I ask is because it makes sense to me (and apparently flipping a dough on its head after proofing is considered important when making ciabatta for this reason) when it comes to the crumb. The dough has been resting with weight and gravity producing a closer crumb at the bottom and a more open crumb in top and flipping the dough helps even it out. So I just thought the same would apply to all doughs. However there is the theory and there is the practice with results to show and your results say otherwise.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I don't understand the theory that suggests that ciabatta will have a more evenly distributed porosity if inverted at oven entry.

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

Of course bubbles don't move but flipping ensures larger bubbles aren't on top and allows for a more even expansion. When proofing the larger bubbles tend to be more on top because of less resistance. Hasn't got the weight of the dough to push up. This will encourage larger bubbles on top and smaller bubbles at the bottom of the dough. Flipping allows the smaller bubbles to expand more during oven spring for a more even crumb. Well that's the theory anyway. 

Benito's picture
Benito

I guess flipping also acts like a pat on the dough so some of the smaller bubbles might coalesce into larger ones and some of the larger ones could split into smaller ones thus evening out the crumb  again like patting down the dough during shaping.  I’ve been thinking that the relatively aggressive patting down of the dough during shaping, taking the preshaped dough stretching it out and patting it down is doing this as well but more aggressively.

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

Sounds very plausible. I've also noticed if there are any irregular large bubbles making an appearance during proofing then on course it happens on top. Flipping kind of evens everything out.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I follow the Cyril Hitz method, sometimes  combined with the Scott MeGee method of ciabatta handling.  

When the dough is gently inverted onto the well floured workbench from the BF tub, the first step is to double the dough over onto itself.  This traps the "facing up" side of the dough in the center.  After divide, when following my now preferred MeGee method, I gently roll the dough into a cylinder for proofing.

Hitz: https://youtu.be/LFja1ShZFsA?t=454

MeGee: https://youtu.be/xxr4oedBRIE?t=287

It works for me: www.thefreshloaf.com/node/62077/scott-megees-ciabatta-sans-olive-oil

 For the life of me I'll never understand how Mr. MeGee gets such a compliant and cohesive dough, as evidenced earlier in the video.
Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

With no shaping whatsoever. I like this idea (I wonder why). Just turning the dough out onto the worktop and gently coaxing it into a rectangle then using the scraper cut it up into smaller rectangles. Then flip, load and bake. I'm wondering if a baguette can work this way but in a very large rectangle and rounding off the edges. Might be effective but wouldn't be scorable I imagine. 

Thanks for the other idea Alan and the videos for a visual. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Gosselin Baguettes are done essentially as you suggest Abe.  I haven’t made these, but I think I it was Don who directed me to that formula before this CB started.

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

This has definitely sparked my interest!

Thanks Benny.

alfanso's picture
alfanso
Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

Looks more rustic but nonetheless a nice result with a good crumb. So no shaping and no final proof. It's getting better! 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

This bake taught me a few things.

  1. Authentic French T65 can be mixed at 75% hydration.
  2. The french method of “ frissage” is a wonderful technique to use at times
  3. T65 can be mixed in such a way as to shrink back (loss of extensible qualities) if mixed a particular way. Next bake with use the same methods, but with less slap and folds in hopes of maintaining the beautiful extensibilty of the T65.
  4. Even at low protein %, if T65 is over worked the crumb will take on a slight chewiness. Less Slap & Folds.
  5. A possible new finding to my ongoing steam issues

To what do I attribute the new found open crumb?
Aliquot Jar - accurate termination of BF
Bulk Retard as opposed to shaped and couched dough that is retarded.
NOTE - I can see and feel the air bubbles in the dough where they weren’t as obvious before

Once again this bake was mixed by hand. All ingredients were mixed @68% hydration until the flour was wet and left to rest 20 min. The extra 7% of hydration water was put into a bowl. The water was used to wet my hands and very slowly increase the hydration until the dough felt right. A deviation from past bakes was the “ frissage”. It is a french method of kneading dough. One hand holds the back of the down against the counter while the dominant hand pushes the dough forward and away against the counter. (An article claimed that this method was used to eliminate any dry flour lumps that remained after the fermentolyse.) there were no large lumps, but I tried the technique anyway. The frissage allowed the dough to progressively absorb the added water. I kept this up, adding water as the dough took it until all of the water (75% hydration) was absorbed. The dough was not moderately slack, but not extremely so. Next,  because of the slack dough Slap & Folds were performed. Didn’t count them (~80-120) but continued until the dough “came together” and showed signs of strength.  Set aside in a bowl to BF, with 30g in Aliquot jar. Once relaxed the dough was coil folded 4 times at about 20 min intervals. The last CF had the dough strengthened. The BF @ 73F got away from me (you’ve got to watch closely towards the end, as things really speed up) and the jar showed a 34% increase in height. Bulk retarded the dough @ 38F for 23 hr. Divided rested 15min, preshaped in to light balls rested 25min, and shaped rather aggressively to build hoop strength. 4 total folds during the shape. Proofed in couche (seam side up) for 30min. I think they were a little overproofed but the sprang very well in the oven.

Baked these differently. Pre-heat to 475F, moved stone lose to top. Pre-heated a cast iron pan with about a half inch of crushed lava rocks in the bottom. Took an opened tin can and put a small hole in the bottom that would allow 1 cup of water to drain out in ~5 min. The can with water was placed on top the hot cast iron pan and set on the floor of the oven. The loaves were also spritzed with spray water. The effects of the spray will be shown below.


The side of the bread that rec’d the sprayed water was shiny. The back side that didn’t receive any water was dull. I plan to pull out the shelf holding the stone so the water can be spritzed from directly above so as to wet all exposed sides of the baguette.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

After closely following your method, my baguettes are resembling yours. Have you solved the broken strap issue yet if so, what is the fix?

I think the weaker flour and higher hydration has a tendency to bake up super thin and delicate crust. Because of this, the straps to break during the expansion of the large oven spring.

What say you?

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Are a feature not a bug. It means your getting a thin crust and good oven spring anyway. I find that if I do shorter scores they hold together better. I see 4 on yours and I have been using 6 or 7 with some sucess. I have a batch of T65 in the fridge to bake in the morning so we shall see. Your getting a nicer crumb now with proper hydration and it will open up even more if you stop slapping and flogging it around. Go easy on the delicate french flower. I was thinking of other ways to enjoy the the T65 and although it borders on blasphemy, I imagine it would make a mean biscuits and gravy.

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Rather than spritzing with water Dan why don’t you quickly brush water on, it will be much more even a coating?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I have been “painting” water on my loaves for the last few bakes. No noticeable difference.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Sometimes things don't go swimmingly and the little errors start to cause defects that keeps the bake from optimal results. My wife says I am too critical of my efforts and she is probably right. I married Miss Right and I found out later her first name is Always. This batch is another T65 at 73% again. I didn't do the last fold after it had been in the fridge and this morning the rise was too much with a big gas bubble in the top. It was not a strong dough but very sticky and I should have put more tension in the pre-shape. The shaping was not pleasurable and the steaming experiment with the wet towel on a sheet pan with boiling water added did not generate the initial blast of steam I get from having no towel. The oven spring was underwhelming and the crust was a little dull. The beauty of the T65 Auguste is the flavor and texture will not be denied and the overall results were better than anticipated.

T65

I like the results better with the curved bladed lame and the straps were not obliterated by oven spring.

The crumb was not my best work and the flavor and texture were not as good as other bakes but still enjoyable.

Someday, everything is gonna be smooth like a rhapsody,
When I paint my masterpiece. B Dylan

 

Benito's picture
Benito

They look much better than you give credit for.  Really nice long even shaping.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

You are always so kind. I had high hopes going in of putting it all together but baguettes can be a cruel mistress. This CB has helped me focus more on shaping since appearance has becomes the criteria for success but flavor still rules at home.

Benito's picture
Benito

Yeah, I still haven’t been able to get everything right on a bake.  My shaping still isn’t really good.  I don’t feel like I’ve made much progress in that respect.  However, you are 100% right Don, flavour and I would add texture really are most important.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

a bad baguette even with your hands tied behind your back!  Maybe not up to your own personal standard, but there's world of baguette bakers out there that would kill to be able to get a bake like this one.  Personally, I might maim, but wouldn't actually kill for this bake.

Accidentally, yesterday Danni referred to my baguettes as braguettes!  I think that we stragglers on this CB can all adopt that term for our own work!

And when the bake going into the oven isn't what you expected coming out, it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Thanks Alan. "Braguettes" thats priceless. Is it just us or is it the baguette that causes us to have fits of OCD. Open crumb does not lead to an open mind.

I saw a room full of men with their hammers a bleeding

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Just out of the oven and not quite ready to slice. Some more info here - 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/65940/au-canada

 

 

 

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

Looks like baguettes straight out of an oven in a French bakery. Looking forward not a crumb shot.

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

A makeshift couche using a towel lined with parchment paper. Towel underneath and parchment paper on top. Proof the baguette seam side up (you can use books or the like to keep the sides from collapsing) then when ready flatten out the couche, roll the baguette by tipping the side of the parchment paper and transfer to the oven. No boards, no handling of the dough after shaping... just pick up the parchment paper and onto the tray or pizza stone.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Getting frustrated with the longer Bouabsa form, I tried to incorporate some Don changes.  Ultimately found a hybrid method to use which i think will work with more practice and changes going forward.

The shaggiest of masses for the yeasted Autolyse - 20 min.  Bassinage with salted water - incorporate, rest 5 min.  covered, 20 French Folds, rest 5 min covered, 20 FFs.  Into container for 60 min BF with soft letter folds at 20,40,60 min.  Retard.  Divide ~15 hrs later, I returned to a more aggressive but still soft pre-shape.  20 min rest, shape, couche seam side down. Bake at 480dF.

In order to get a more extensible dough, I added 0.25% or 1.5g of NY along with the IDY just after water hit the mixing bowl.  The dough was neither more nor less extensible and in fact ran the gamut of lengths - from 16-19 inches, as two of the three receded in length, creating a Mutt & Jeff look post-shaping.  Dang.

Scoring showed some improvement, but still lacking consistency.  The NY administered a loss of the crisp sweet flavor of the bread even at this small dosage.  A most serious downside.  The one bright spot is that the crumb is starting to catch up a little to the others around these parts.

Next go-round the NY will be gone and I'll drop the 75% hydration a few clicks.  It's hard to fathom that 0.25% of NY would effect the flavor so much, and still yield no perceivable help on extensibility.  A solution may be to create a longer preshape. 

350g x 3 baguettes

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

In think you're trying to fix something that doesn't need fixing. Looks great to me. 

Btw what's NY? 

Benito's picture
Benito

Nutritional Yeast = NY.  You probably know that it is high in glutathione and increases the extensibility of the dough.

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

Thanks Benny. The only things I use are the the flours and trying to get the best out them. I don't add in anything other than for flavour. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

My inconsistent shaping is magnified on the longer batons.  To all that remain steadfast on this CB, we are never as close to "perfection" as we wish to be.  Continuous improvement is a worthy goal.

Benito's picture
Benito

Really nice crumb Alan, two thumbs up.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

have started to come around with the more open Benito Crumb.  Some tweaks here and there, and then seeking while geeking, tweaking the tweak, so to speak.

Whether I can maintain that consistency remains to be seen.

alan

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I found that changing from an 8" cylinder to an 11" cylinder as the pre-shape made a lot of difference in how easily it rolled out to 21".  Also started by cutting 9" long strips of dough off the BF mass - that eliminated some of the minor manipulations required to get things to pre-shape the way I wanted.  And I rest a full 30-35 minutes before final shaping. But I am not using your delicate French T65 and I am not running the hydration up to 70+% either.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I've been beseeched by the cognoscenti on this CB to take the plunge and invest in the "wonderdust", as Don so elegantly put it.  And always resisted.  Partly because I'm a recalcitrant, partly because I have something like 200 lbs. of various flours bursting out of every nook in our apartment here.  And in fairness, although not really being fair to myself, I can't quite pull the trigger on forking over that much for flour.  

OTOH, I mentioned to my wife, related to Don's by name ;-) , that I just passed 70 years of toil on this earth last week, and perhaps she could spring for a bag as a BD present.  I'm not sure whether she already forgot, so I'll give her a gentle nudge with my cattle prod later today.

I'm with you Doc on the length of the pre-shape.  Although I like the Abel pre-shape method, I find that I can get more tension in it and may go back to my old way, which I did for this bake.  I'll make the effort to extend the length of the baton at that point, as well as take your suggestion of a longer rest between pre-shape and final shape.

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Happy Belated Birthday Alan.  You’ll need to text her a reminder of your birthday wish.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Alan, what flour did you use? Surprising that 75% hydration and lightly worked dough would be elastic and not extensible. And NY on top of it all!

what is your new found “hybrid” method?

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Don's contribution; minimal mixing, gentler BF folds, tighter pre-shape.

I forever "over mixed" the initial pre-autolyse components.  For these past few bakes, stopping at gingerly ensuring that the flour will hydrate and nothing more.  The true "shaggy mass" approach.  So far I like the change.

Then the severe cutting back on French Folds and letting the BF develop the gluten structure.

With an extensible dough like this during the BF folds, I historically would look to get a maximum stretch, rather than now being kinder to the dough.  But I stuck with my 3 Letter Fold, 60 min. BF before retard.  

And returned to couching seam side down, having seen no evidence of an advantage otherwise.  The downside to me was the additional manipulation of the couched dough between linen and baking peel.  My couche is long enough that it complete encircles the dough and remains in contact with the full circumference of the batons.

The lack of extensibility was really surprising, considering the addition of the NY.  However, even if this trend continues, the NY at even this minuscule level imparts an off-taste stealing away the magnificent clean flavor of the Bouabsa bread.  And likely won't see further action in future bakes. 

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Your signature is on the top side. I am somewhat surprised they look so much like your other batons. Amazing blisters on the crust. Would the hybrid method involve a cold proof like your other bakes? Seam down says old habits are tough to break. Is it our ovens that is producing a different look to everyones attempt at the same recipe? Everyones crumbs looks nearly the same but the outside is another matter entirely. 

I have found that keeping the dough temp near 74 has helped me with extensibility as Abel stated in his recipe. Just say no to the nutritional yeast

alfanso's picture
alfanso

unique exterior to our bakes.  I think that it was Mr. Hamelman who said that he could ID the bread's baker by the scoring alone.

I explained the hybrid style to Dan above, but kept to my old cold proofing tricks - pulling the dough out a few hours before the bake to divide and shape it and then back to retard.  I pull the dough out only about 15 minutes prior to loading onto the oven peel.

After a few bakes, if the pattern holds and I continue employing these similar steps, the hybridization of my methodology will cease and it will become biznez as usual.

We should never be too good as to deny that there might be a better way.

"Just say no to the nutritional yeast" - wasn't that a Nancy Reagan slogan?

kendalm's picture
kendalm

The intruduction of 50% Canadian T55 reuslted in a less extensible dough but the Canadian loaf burst much better.  Go figure ! Could have been just shaping of the Canadian loaf.  Regarding your shaping on the long loaves.  I am not sure if you are still rocking these longies but if you rolling, one thing I learned was that it's much easier to avoid kinks (which I think I'm seeing on your longies) is to spread your fingers and roll while avoiding your palms.  ie, stop rolling when the loaf his the area under your knuckles.  Also, I try to push downwards only and let the loaf extend itself as opposed to forcing outwards.  I find that if you use your palms and force both down and outwards you will almost always kink the loaf and that translates to funky final shapes.  As with slinging pizzas, its hard to get a good pie if you never focused on perfect round pie.  So in keeping with that mantra and yours btw (the amplification rule), gotsta go for a perfect cylinder ;) 

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I thought most Canadian flour was ~14% protein and French flour was substantially less.  I would think that would dominate any comparison between them.

Benito's picture
Benito

Doc most of the Canadian flour I’ve seen on our selves is about 13.3% protein, of course who knows how accurate this is the packages usually state 4 G protein per 30 g serving.  I’ve been able to track down a 10% protein all purpose flour that is from Quebec Canada, but it is not widely available and only found thus far is specialty food markets.

Benito's picture
Benito

These are my first go at an all white flour 10% protein, in this case from Quebec, that is sourdough and no commercial yeast.  After the good results I had with the sesame semolina sourdough baguettes without commercial yeast I decided I needed to give it a go again but with the Quebec white flour.  These are essentially Abel’s baguettes au levain without the commercial yeast and hydration increased to 70% during bassinage and finally encrusted with poppy seeds.  So I’ll just call them Yorkville Baguettes since that is the neighborhood that I live in ?

These were done in my now usual fashion with very little intervention, so only Rubaud mixing when adding the salt to ensure that it is well mixed.  There were no slap and folds done.  I did my usual two coil folds, in between telemedicine appointments (don’t tell my patients) so not quite at the usual 50 mins intervals.  Bulk fermentation was monitored with an aliquot jar once again ending when the jar showed a 20% rise.  The dough was put into a 2ºC fridge for bulk cold retard and stayed there for a bit more than 24 hours.

The following day I did a pre-shape into loose cylinders followed by a 25 mins bench remembering that the last time I used this flour it was extremely extensible.  Shaping when pretty well for me and these were each then dampened on a wet towel and “rolled” on a cookie tray with poppy seeds.  They were transferred to my floured couche seam side up thinking that the weight of the dough would help press the poppy seeds firmly into the dough to help attach them.  They were given a 40 min bench rest.  With 10 mins left to the bench rest the oven was turned on to pre-heat at 500ºF.  At the 40 min mark the baguettes were put back into the fridge to firm up and stayed there for 40 mins.

Finally they were baked as usual with steam at 480ºF for 13 minutes and then 10 mins at 480ºF rotating them at the halfway mark then the temperature was dropped to 450ºF and the baguettes were given another 3 minutes and then they were done.

I’m super happy with how these turned out.  I think these are my best baguettes to date and the ones I’m most proud of, there isn’t too much I’m disappointed with, not to say that they are perfect, but I’m really pleased.  The shaping was probably my most successful, the crust is thin, crisp and really delicious with the poppy seeds.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

“ They were given a 40 min bench rest.  With 10 mins left to the bench rest the oven was turned on to pre-heat at 500ºF.  At the 40 min mark the baguettes were put back into the fridge to firm up and stayed there for 40 mins.”

40 min rest then put into fridge for 40 min. 

were the baguettes well fermented before putting in fridge? I ask because the dough at 2C should continue to ferment.

The ears are beautiful. And at 70% hydration and 10% protein!

so, 20% would be your preferred increase at this time?

I will be baking tomorrow. May try the seeded loaves. Yours look so nice.

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks Dan, I am so happy with this bake, it is one of the few that I won’t complain too much about any faults.

I actually had the aliquot jar stay with the dough throughout bulk and into cold retard and out on the counter whenever the dough was on the counter and back in the fridge when the dough was back in the fridge.  At the end of cold retard en bulk, the aliquot jar was back down to the starting point, this is the exact thing I’ve seen in the past.  By the time the shaped baguettes were at the end of their 40 mins bench rest, the aliquot jar was back up to 20’ish percent rise.  I know this isn’t really representative of the degree of bulk, but this is more or less what I’ve seen in the past when I’ve done this, mostly out of curiosity.  The baguettes at that point were puffier but didn’t look anywhere near a puffy as I used to have them when I used to bulk rise to 35%.  So I’m not sure that they were well fermented, they certainly didn’t look like the 35% rise baguettes in the past, definitely less proofed looking than those.  Yes I counted on them continuing to proof as they chilled out in the fridge.

I all about the seeded crusts now on baguettes.  I’m also totally happy that an all sourdough raised baguette that I can make can still have that thin crisp crust that I want in a baguette.  For the longest time I thought wrongly that I needed to use commercial yeast to get a thin crust baguette, that is not the case at all.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

A few slices of that and you won't be able to pass your drug test.

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks Doc I’ll try to avoid drug tests this week as we eat these opiate covered baggies.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Benny, talk us through your process for rolling the torpedoes. How do you get the even reduction in circumference towards the ends? I imagine the dough was extensible and slack?

Benito's picture
Benito

Yes you’re right the dough was very extensible, I have to say that I’m quite pleased with how this Quebec flour handles and tastes. I’m sure that I haven’t had the pleasure of working with French T55 or T65 but I’m happy enough with this flour that I’m not looking anymore.  I posted videos of what I did with this bake.  I didn’t post them to this tread instead posting them in my blog.  I didn’t think you guys would be interested in my videos.  As you may know I’ve been using Abel’s shaping methods and do find that they work for me.  They are less complex than what I used to do.  I’m not sure I could explain well, I’ll post the videos below.  I’m almost embarrassed to post them for you guys to critique, but here they are.

 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

???

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks so much Yippie ????

Yippee's picture
Yippee

There are over 2,000 replies under this thread! Let me add one more???

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Thanks for posting the videos. I got a lot of information from them. It is amazing how non-airy your dough is at shaping and yet the crumb is outrageously great!

what if you put the seeds on either a dry cloth or parchment paper? That way you might be able to roll the dough in the seeds using the cloth or paper.

Have you thought about making the pleat in the couche after each dough is placed on it? That way it is ready to receive the next one. All of the pros do it that way.

When studying your video during scoring it looks to me that the blade is almost straight down. Check it out Benny and let me know what you think.

I watched my dough tonight like a hawk and pulled it at 20% increase. It really rises fast for me towards the very end. 15 min makes a difference.

Your videos inspired me...

Benito's picture
Benito

Putting the seeds on a dry cloth is a great idea thanks Dan, I didn’t think of that.  

Pleating the couche to have it ready for the next baguette is also a good idea, I think I used to do that but have stopped for some unknown reason.

I was finding it a challenge to score with the seeds, with the first one I had my blade about 60* from the dough surface.  So as I went along I think my blade became closer to perpendicular as it was easier to score through the seeds.  I didn’t even realize that my blade angle had changed from baguette to baguette but watching the video I think it did subconsciously.  Apparently one can get decent ears and grigne with quite a variety of blade angles, which is actually a good thing when you aren’t scoring baguettes everyday and aren’t consistent.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Benny, they look fantastic. Ditto all the comments above.

Cheers,

Gavin

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Thank you Gavin.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Spectacular.  All around.  The poppy seeds are so thick on the crust that they form a beautiful pattern where the scores have opened.  Another incredible crumb as well.  Bravo chap!

But it doesn't remind me of a deli rye bread that I made and then coated with caraway seeds.  There is such a thing as too much, and this was my extreme example.  

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Thank you Alan.  I was worried that the seeds would all fall off along the way. The first one I did I just placed onto the seeds and didn’t try to roll and they just had a coat on the top.  I think the last one I did I figured out that I could gently give them a roll to get more on the sides.  I do have to admit that I love seeds on breads and now that I’m able to make good bread my partner is no longer complaining about the mess that seed crusted breads make.

I’m still unsure that you can put too many seeds on a bread as long as you love the flavour of those seed.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Nice work Benny in Wonderland. They look exotic like stealth topedoes. If I tried that recipe I would be finding seeds around the kitchen from here to eternity. The videos were nicely done and your careful handling explains the open crumb. The sourdough version seems supple and less elastic than the yeasted ones I have been working with.

What's next? Hemp hearts!

Benito's picture
Benito

I like the look of these baguettes too Don and the description of sheath torpedoes does seem to fit.  I suspect I’ll be finding poppy seeds around the kitchen for a while too, but it is worth it for the flavour.

We were discussing pH and proteolytic enzymes a while back.  I’ve been monitoring pH levels recently and documenting them.  The baguette levain started with a pH of 5.7 after mix and was 3.99 pH just past peak.  Baguette dough after mixing with levain was 6.23 and after the 20% bulk rise was 4.1 pH. After cold retard it had dropped to 3.97.

Thus by the time of dividing and pre-shaping the pH had dropped to less than 4. I believe if I recall correctly, I’m sure Doc will chime in on this if I’m wrong, but the proteolytic enzymes start to be quite active at pH < 4.  If that is the case, that might partly add to the extensibility of the baguette dough during pre-shaping and shaping compared to what Don experiences with Bouasba or other commercial yeast dough.  What do you guys think?

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

Great crumb as usual.  I loved the videos too, very helpful.  I need to be less fearful when shaping I think.

Leslie

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks Leslie, I’m glad you find the videos helpful.  I’m still a bit fearful when shaping and transferring the baguettes but I’m gradually becoming less so.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

The last of the frozen baguettes.  Yippee Ki Yay, time to make another batch! 

 Now, let me assure you, this is not your school bag lunch bologna sandwich! 

#MortadellaisNotBologna

Benito's picture
Benito

I love the yellow crumb that the flour brings to these baguettes Will.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Ever since the hydration was increased, the ears are difficult to achieve and the straps break, but the oven spring has improved. Decided to give Benny’s poppy seed baguettes a try with the Bouabsa formula and method. 75% T65, 25% KAAP, mixed at 71.3% and only slightly developed the gluten. The gluten for the last bake (75% hydration & T65) was well developed and produced a dough that was lacking extensibility. This bake @ 71.3% was very slack and highly extensible, but shaping was fair.

Experience tells me that 

Le Moulin d'Auguste Traditional Wheat Flour - T65 is heavily influenced by gluten development. It can be mixed at 75% hydration and lack extensibility IF the gluten is highly developed. The same dough, without highly developed gluten will be extremely slack and super extensible. I have not noticed this physical change with other types of flour.

 

Poppy seeds -
Placed shaped dough on a wet towel and used that towel to roll them back and forth. Tried putting seed on parchment paper in hopes of rolling the dough similar to the towel method. Paper tore, didn’t work. Ended up putting the seeds on a towel with decent results at distributing seeds evenly. I think a stiff fabric, such as a linen couche would work best for rolling the dough in seeds. With this method the loaf has seeds all around the circumference, even the bottom. The flavor derived from the seeds was super! 

Thoughts after 40 consecutive baguette bakes -

  • Baguettes are sensitive to flour types
  • Baguettes are sensitive to hydration
  • Oven setup is crucial
  • As with all breads, steam is very important
  • Oven Spring is paramount to success (equally true with all breads)

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Your baguettes look like they have a really nice round circular cross section, is that right Dan.  I’ve never been able to achieve that, but your oven spring looks very impressive and caused the broken straps, which don’t bother me whatsoever since they indicate amazing oven spring.  Great job getting the seeds well applied all over.  The crumb looks great as usual for you.  Are you happy with the results of this bake?

The poppy seed crust is super flavourful and something I’ll be doing again in the future.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Crumb is nice, but I would love to produce the cell structure that you are so consistently doing. Benny is your signature crumb leaning towards over or under proofing at the time of your Final Proof? 

The yellow coloring comes from the T65. If a stiff, closed weave fabric (linen couche, etc) is available, I think the rolling in towel method would work great.

I think I need to come to my senses and dial back the hydration. Don’s atmosphere must suck the moisture out of his dough :-)

Unless one experiences the increased flavor derived from the poppy seeds, describing the flavor is beyond me. I will be doing this often in the future.

Benito's picture
Benito

I don’t know what to say about my “signature” crumb as you know I’ve gone to 35% bulk fermentation and had that crumb and now bulk to 20% but compensating with a late post shaping bench RT proof.  I really have no secrets to achieving the crumb.  You have now seen me dividing, pre-shaping and shaping and I’m not doing anything different from you guys.

Regarding hydration for my current flour I think the 70ish % feels good to me for dough handling and extensibility.  I agree I think that Don’s environment is much drier than yours so I wouldn’t feel the need to get your hydration up where his is.  I suspect as the winter comes my way my condo’s humidity will plummet and I may have to increase the hydration of my bread to compensate.  

Everyone else on this CB who has baked baguettes enough times has achieved open crumb as I have, so I don’t really think that my crumb is any different from the rest of you guys.

Now I totally agree with you about the poppy seeds, now that I finally found a place to get them.  Who knew they would be with the spices in the grocery store I never thought to look there.  But the taste of the crust is incredible and rivals sesame seeds which I absolutely love.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

It's hard to balance great oven spring with pronounced ears.  I think that it is usually a game of give and take.  Not saying it isn't or can't be done.  A nice bake all around.

still working my way through freezer inventory combined with dieting, but soon I'll throw a short video out here demonstrating how I cover the dough with seeds.  Far from innovative and simple to do, but it does seem to perplex some folks a little.  If it helps to clarify, then it will be an easy "lesson" with value.

Benito's picture
Benito

Yes would love to see you post this video Alan.  thumbs up to that.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Alan, the difficulty with seeding baguettes has to do with dough that is highly extensible. Picking it up feels like you’re holding a dead snake that wants to stretch. Although (disclaimer) I have not nor do I ever intend to do so :-)

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I have been having difficulty getting repeatable open crumb baguettes as I reduced the amount of manipulation performed on the dough during pre-shaping + final shaping.  In the photo below, the upper sliced baguette received very little manipulation while the one below it was more aggressively handled. In the first case a strip of dough about 9" long was cut off the BF dough piece, rolled up very gently and rested for 35 minutes followed by two gentle circumfrential folds and just enough rolling to seal the seam.  The second one was an irregular triangle with a few additional lumps of dough for weight adjustment, rolled up and incrementally tightened per Abel's technique into a cylinder about 8" long, rested 35 min and then rolled out gently but firmly to 21".

When these were cut open the first observation was that there is a line of fairly large bubbles right down the middle of each loaf, and while the general nature of the crumb is large irregular holes, there are areas with more compact crumb.

After photographing them and examining the images, it becomes more clear that the lower baguette actually has a considerably more open average crumb texture and there are areas of the upper loaf that are fairly tight, especially closer to the crust.  In both cases the ends have a predominantly tight crumb.

The crust is crunchy and the crumb mildly sour and tasty. They are good baguettes but with detectibly different crumb characteristics.

I am going to repeat tomorrow with a slightly lower protein flour and the same (66%) hydration and gluten development and run the same split when dividing and shaping.  These were divided at ~20% bulk fermentation volume increase.

 

Benito's picture
Benito

I am starting to think that fairly aggressive handling during shaping helps the open crumb.  Larger cells gets divided into smaller ones and smaller one consolidated into larger ones.  I think that the firm patting down of the dough to flatten it somewhat prior to final shaping is an important step.

Doc, are you leaning in that direction?

alfanso's picture
alfanso

the original CB formula at 70% hydration.  Here is a very short video of the baguette being rolled in wheat bran.  Rocked on wet towel, then rocked on coating.  That's all that is necessary.

 

  

 

  

 

325g x 3 long batards

Benito's picture
Benito

I can’t believe you’re able to rock the baguette on the seeds so easily.  Are the seeds in a glass dish?  I was trying to roll/rock them on a cookie tray, the last time I did do it pretty successfully, but nowhere near as efficiently as you were able to Alan.  I may try putting the seeds on the cookie tray with a cloth underneath next time to see how that goes.

The first time I tried this the dough just pushed the seeds around so ended up sliding on top of the seeds no picking up any additional seeds on the sides.  One thing I note from your video is that you seem to have quite a few more seeds on your dish that I placed in mine, at least in terms of depth.  I’ll have to see if I have a better dish/tray to try this again in, maybe something with sloping sides

Thanks for posting the video Alan.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

when I noticed three new emails.  And then bummed when two were dups.  How could you!

This is with wheat bran, but it is no different for seeds.  The glass dish has a little concavity to it, being a serving dish that just happened to have the perfect length for the 15 inch batard.  There really is a minimal depth, I just want to make sure that the dough gets a cover of the topping.  

Not the topic for this exercise, but as you can see, I really don't baby the dough very much.  Just interested in getting in there and getting the job done.  I guess its my version of trying to be "production-style" where getting out the product is a key factor.  Even at 70% hydration, I was surprised at how the dough still has to be pinched closed at a few (too many) points to ensure a good seal.

Benito's picture
Benito

duplicate

Benito's picture
Benito

Duplicate Sorry

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

With almost all things in life, everything is easy when you know what you’re doing.

I’m still following the directions to bake great baguettes and also get to Carnegie Hall. “Practice, practice, practice”.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

The bran coating makes them even more appealing.

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

So, after the discussion in the other thread, I'm trying to make baguettes again, and following the formula and process in the first post here (https://fgbc.dk/svd)

My starter was a little sluggish today for some reason and took a long time to double (I normally feed it 50/50 BF/WW, I think it doesn't enjoy just BF much anymore, could be that, since the levain is just bread flour), so 2.5 hr of bulk have passed, but I see very little growth in the aliquot jar - but there definitely are signs of fermentation. I'll keep it longer hoping to see 20-30% growth as recommended, and will shape/retard until tomorrow. I'll bake on steel tomorrow morning without upper heating and hope it works out better than previously! Will report with updates :)

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

So it appears that in a small narrow aliquot jar the dough barely grows (maybe only the top of the meniscus, while the edges are almost not moving?), however the dough looks really nicely fermented, puffed up with lots of visible bubbles along the sides of the bowl. So overall I fermented for nearly 5 hours before preshaping... Which is maybe consistent with the slow growth of the levain anyway, so maybe not bad.

Shaping was a pleasure, very nice dough. Clearly full of air, but not slack. Not sticky, but a little tacky, so rolled well on an almost unfloured benchtop. Wasn't really a plan from the beginning, but got a couple thicker and shorter, and a couple thinner and a little longer baguettes. I'll pretend it's an experiment. Now they are retarding in the fridge overnight. I haven't tried baking baguettes from cold, beyond cooling them for 15 min in the end of proof. I imaging this must make it easier to transfer and score them.

Any opinion if the direction of baking is important? Like, all baguettes pointing away from the door vs baguettes parallel to the door?

alfanso's picture
alfanso

most of what I bake is 14-15 inches long, and that is the depth of my oven and oven baking deck.  When I shape something longer, us to 21 inches, I load the dough sideways where the width accommodates the length.  There is no right or wrong direction.  

Okay, here's one right. At the point where you release the steam and the bake is somewhere near half done, a little more or a little less, rotate the loaves in the oven,  Left to right, front to back.  There are hot and cool spots in the oven and you will want to ensure that the dough is not over exposed to either one.  Is this a death knell if you don't?  No.  But you will get a better bake overall if you do rotate them.

Benito's picture
Benito

I’ve been trying to max out the length of my baguettes to the width of my baking steel, 16” so the only way to do that is to “side load” the baguettes.  So they are parallel to the door.  I think that the baking is more even if loaded perpendicular to the door, but either way, as Alan says you should rotate them.  I rotate them once at about the ¾ mark through baking and again 5 mins later.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Just vented the oven - YEAH BABY I'm getting baguettes!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

image image

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

My girlfriend really wanted one for breakfast while it was still hot!image

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

So, I preheated the oven at top temperature (270°C) with only bottom heat with the steel there. I just had the steel on an oven rack in the lower third of the oven, nothing fancy. I also had a big baking tray in the top of the oven to reduce the volume that needs to be steamed.

A few min before baking, put in a tray with old oven mitts and water to presteam the oven, and an empty metal tray to preheat it. Scored and loaded all 4 baguettes parallel to the door and added a blast of steam with some boiling water poured into the second tray. Reduced the temp to around 240°C.

Baked with steam for 15 minutes, but I think it didn't need that long actually, maybe 10 min would be enough. Then vented the oven and switched on the top element (and took out the top tray). Baked for 15 min,(rotated the baguettes around 10 min mark) then thought it wasn't enough and left for around 5 min more (and rotated the baguettes once more).

 

Overall, this was a great success! Definitely really nice baguettes, a little sour and tasty. The crust is amazingly crispy (well, they are just out of the oven, let's see how it performs later). The bottom is hard, but not burned. The crumb could be more open.

The only actual issue is that the sides of the baguettes are not cripsy, but soft! Must be because they were very close to each other. The ones sides that faced the door or the back of the oven seem good though, so maybe next time I should also change the order of the baguettes - just put the fist one last, and repeat two times, so all baguettes get crispy from both sides... Or load fewer at a time. This time I put them back in the oven on the side and grilled them a little :) Seemed to help at least somewhat.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Ilya, looks like you are off to a great start! 

What differences did you notice between this formula and method versus your previous bake?

Danny

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks Danny!

 

For the formula, this was lower hydration and more whole grain flour. Also I think 300 slap&folds developed super gluten.

Retarding the shaped baguettes makes it much easier to score (although I was OK with warm baguettes too I think), and transfer onto the peel, and into the oven. Previously they would always stretch a lot and start flattening before even hitting the oven.

I don't know whether only bottom heat was important, but that was also a difference.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

It appears you have a knack for baguettes. Your attention to detail is obvious from reading your latest post. If you continue and are consistent you will see speedy improvements, considering your progression from this bake to your last.

How much of this gigantic thread did you read?

Glad you joined the CB!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you! I know the devil is in the details. I will definitely keep working on the baguettes. I'd like more open crumb, and less of a whole wheat flavour. One of my less miserable baguette bakes before, was when I tried the Kamut baguette recipe from Maurizio (still a complete failure compared to these), I am thinking maybe using Kamut as the whole grain component could be nice stepping stone? Or einkorn. Or just reduce whole wheat? I guess that should help open the crumb a bit too.

 

I read the first couple of pages, and looked through the end too. There is so much info,! But not particularly well organized :) I'm glad to join this effort, and hope to learn and let others learn from my mistakes too!

alfanso's picture
alfanso

For less wheaty flavor, quite the opposite, try a semolina/durum based formula or the Hamelman Vermont SD, both versions that I bake and post on TFL are on the low hydration side as well. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you alfanso!

Would you mind sharing links to the formulas? You have posted a lot of baguettes, and in variations, a bit tricky to find the base recipes :)

alfanso's picture
alfanso

When Mr. Hamelman refers to "Bread Flour" he is referring to a flour with a similar composition to the King Arthur AP flour at 11.7% protein, rather than a flour in the USA labelled as "bread flour".

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/51572/vermont-sd-baguettes-course has the write up and formula.

With experimentation I've recently scaled back my French Folds from 300 down to 40-50 with a 5 minute break about halfway through.  And I leave the gluten development to the bulk ferment.  Also point out that my kitchen is typically 78-80dF year round which may well affect your fermentation time. 

 

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you! I haven't seen any flour with such protein content around here, there is either "plain" flour with <10%, or bread flour with >12%, which I just use as the base for most breads, and seems fine with any recipe.

What do you use as Durum flour? Is coarse semolina OK? Or is it semola rimacinata?

Benito's picture
Benito

You could blend your flours to reduce the protein of the stronger one. I used semola rimacinata for my semolina baguettes. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank Benny, I considered using some plain flour in todays bake, but didn't, following Lance's advice in the other thread.

Thanks, I know a source of semola rimacinata here, a nice Italian deli. Just ned to cycle over there one of these days. Got the 00 flour from there too - that was around the AP flour protein-wise, actually, I think.

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

A high quality 50:50 mix of bread flour and durum flour. 

https://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/products/organic-pasta-flour-x-1kg

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Oh cool, thanks Abe! They might have that at realfoods here.

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

Or in Wholefoods. It comes in at 12% protein and has a lovely texture. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

the preferred, by far is semola rimacinata, also sometimes just called durum.  It is machined to a fine powder.  Definitely not coarse Semolina, but I've gotten away with Semolina #1.  Durum is a hard grain in comparison to most other wheats, and responds accordingly.  If you can't locate it Dave in Indy suggests finding an Indian grocer that sells ATTA flour, also a durum. - check the label for ingredients.  I bought a bag and it seems every bit as good as the semola r. and less costly.

Check out Benny's results with his take on the semolina/durum baguettes.  Simply top shelf stuff.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks! My girlfriend actually almost used up the semolina we had on halwa yesterday (delicious), so would need to buy one or the other anyway! I know where I can get semola rimacinata, but an Indian ATTA flour is an interesting idea, I might swing by one of the Indian shops and check if they have it.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I find it a lot easier to start with a known-good formula and coax it in the direction that I want (less IDY; more PFF; higher hydration; different flour; different steam delivery; ...) than it is to start from some random initial formula for which I have no performance history.  Even if I start with a formula provided by somebody I trust, I still insist that I bake it a few times to make sure that I am getting consistent results (even if they are not great, at least I know where I am).  For baguettes I would suggest a 100% white wheat flour baseline, perhaps something around 11% protein and once you have that one in hand, change one thing at a time until you get to where you are again happy.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you Doc - that is exactly what I am doing, following a recipe recommended by the bakers here, so I know it should work! And then considering how to move towards the direction where I would like it to be (whiter and more open).

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Loving those ears


 

Benito's picture
Benito

Wow Ilya, those look really great, nice ears, you don’t know how long it took me to get ears.  Good shaping too.

Benny

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks! Followed your videos for shaping, I like the "tube" preshaping :) When I tried it before as a boule I got a lot more shrinkage along the length of the beguette when shaping.

Benito's picture
Benito

Yes, I’m so glad that you found the videos helpful.  I too prefer the tube/cylindrical pre-shaping.  I think most of us found by trial and error that we had less retraction of the length of our baguettes when pre-shaped this way.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Baked Benny’s formula and used his method. After 41 bakes, most of then CY, the SD version was a nice change. Mixed at 70% hydration, but it seems 68% may have been a better choice. Used KAAP flour.

By the way. These were scored straight down with no angle on the blade. Because of the slack dough, it was much easier this way.

I am having a difficult time getting the crumb (cell structure) to focus sharply. May need a new lighting angle or the high light temp (6000K) is having a negative affect. The colors are accurate when placed against a white background, but the crumb shots are poor quality.

Benito's picture
Benito

So what did you think Dan?  I know you didn’t use your T65, but what is your assessment of this bake?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I enjoyed the change to SD. The flavor was a little more intense and complex. Not really sour, but very different from CY only. The crust and crumb was nice.

I am considering going back to the original (Hamelman’s Pain au Levain). If I do, I want to try only slightly developing the dough, to see how that affects the outcome. 

After over 40 consecutive baguette bakes, my favorite is Bouabsa, but this was a nice change.

Benito's picture
Benito

I find that I like essentially no whole grain in my baguettes, although the Bouabsa is definitely up there for flavour I am enjoying my primarily white wheat sourdough baguettes.  I like the additional complexity and then having seeds on them make them all the better.

Benny

ciabatta's picture
ciabatta

Can’t believe how active this thread still is and how amazing the bakes keep getting. 
I have always wanted to do a seeded baguette. Benny’s poppy seed coated baguettes were amazing. Inspired me to have a go at my version. 

This is a hybrid dough. Rye starter base and KASL levain. 12% bread flour main. I had a hard time with the 10% flour last time. So going a bit to the other end to try above 12% protein dough. Since this has IDY I did not do an over night cold retard. 

60% hydration. 2% salt. 1g diastatic malt powder. Pinch of Instant dry yeast

500g total flour

4 coli folds. 8g each poppy, white sesame, and black sesame (toasted) folded in (lamination) and spritzed with Water after 3rd fold. 
prepreshaped, preshaped, final shaped. 
preheated Oven with steam Trays. These are the slender cast iron grill humidifiers I got from amazon. 
15 mins with steam. And 15 with trays removed and vented. 

I really like the feel of the dough this time. I was able to shape fairly evenly. Was able to handle it without it being too floppy or stretchy.  For the first time I felt like the scoring went very well. 
results were decent but I’m still not getting the proper spring im looking for and as usual only one ear per loaf again. 
I am still fairly happy with my progress and know what to try on next iteration. 
1. leave out diastatic malt. Crumb was little bit too moist, not quit gummy but makes me wonder. 
2. Triple the amount of seeds. It isn’t nearly as fragrant of sesame as I like 

3.  Need to give my whole oven cloche another go. The steam trays were just not producing enough to fill the whole oven. 

Here are more pics


james

 

 

 

Benito's picture
Benito

James your shaping and scoring looks excellent.  Are you baking them cold or room temperature?  The wrinkles in the dough look like you are baking room temperature dough.  You might find that the oven spring is better if you try baking from cold.

How much rise are you aiming for during bulk?

ciabatta's picture
ciabatta

wow. you can tell that it was room temp??  my fridge is not wide enough to cold rest baguettes.  I wasnt using an aliquot jar for this one.  i think it's around 30% rise.  They're 280g loaves. I felt really good about the shaping and the scoring, but it should have better oven spring.  Will try with better steam next time. i could see the crust locking up a few minutes in, tried to add more steam but it was too late.  I had two slender steam boxes and i also put water on steal plate at bottom of oven.  maybe i need to just turn the oven off for the first 15 minutes. i think that will help. i like the seeds in the dough. and the oil from the sesame makes for a very crispy crust.  may try a straight yeasted version too.

Benito's picture
Benito

Yes I’ve scored room temp, cold and “had to take out of the oven after a couple of minutes because I forgot to score the dough” baguettes so recognize the wrinkles in the skin at the scores. ?

I was finding that when I bulk fermented to 30% rise that my oven spring and ears suffered.  I reduced to 20-25% and allowed some room temperature proofing after shaping and have had better ears and oven spring without any deterioration of the crumb.  Just a thought.

Your shaping and scoring really are great though James.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

This time, Hamelman’s Pain au Levain according to Alan’s formula in the original post. Except 8% home milled Hard Red Wheat and 2% home milled Rye.

The only variation from the method was very minimal up front gluten development (no slap and folds). To my amazement, the dough was super extensible. So much so that one of the dough (pictured on the bottom) was folded length  wise and then rolled up for the pre-shape to facilitate easier shaping. I have baked this altered formula many times before and the dough was always super elastic. So much so, that additional water was often added in an attempt to loosen the dough. This was a hands on lesson in the power of up front gluten development for me.

 

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Dan what is your take on sourdough baguettes now with this bake?  Are you starting to enjoy them more?

I note that you’re getting the elongated alveoli that Geremy often gets, are you doing anything differently when shaping?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

My preference remains Commercially Yeasted baguettes, but SD is a nice diversion after so many bakes.

Elongated Alveoli -
Now that you mention it... I did do a sideways letter fold and then a rollup for the pre-shape on that dough. The dough was slack, so the tighter pre-shaping. I think that caused me to spread the dough outwards as the dough was rolled out in the final shaping. Maybe that caused the elongated cells. I like the look of them.

kendalm's picture
kendalm

I think its largely due to hydration.  Whats your normal hydration benny ? 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Geremy, the crumb above was mixed at 68% hydration.

Benito's picture
Benito

I’ve had the same crumb anywhere from about 66 to 75% hydration.  I’ve been surprised how little the hydration has seemed to affect the crumb openness.  I’ve found that hydration seems to have a greater effect on extensibility.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Benny, to what do you attribute your elongated cell structure?

Benito's picture
Benito

I seldom get the elongated cell structure you guys sometimes do.  I think Geremy has said that as he is rolling out he sometimes stretches them by pulling on the ends of the baguettes?  Geremy correct me if I’m wrong but I recall you saying that.  I have never consciously done that when shaping.  The cells usually are fairly round in the crumb of my baguettes.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Friends leaving on a road trip tomorrow morning and, when asked, I was requested to bake "one of those really crispy breads" that I passed on to them in recent times.  That could mean only one thing.

The bottlenose on one is a mystery, as they all looked similar coming off the couche.  In fact all three had almost identical profiles off the couche. (he types as he scratches his head with the free hand. )

20 min autolyse, 10% bassinage w/salt, 5 min rest, 20 French Folds, 5 min rest, 20 FFs, Letter Folds at 20, 40, 60 min, retard, divide & shape after "a few" hours, retard, bake 480dF.  Steam 13 min, bake another 13 min, 3 min vent. 

340g x 3 long batards.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Nice crumb! Sweet blisters!

What flour and what hydration?

Have a safe trip...

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

taking off.  First stop Biloxi, then Dallas to see their son.

KA AP 75% hydration

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Alan, did you develop the gluten up front (slap and folds, ect)? The crust and ears looks so strong. I am mentally comparing Don’s and mine Bouabsa bakes. Our crust was very thin, we had broken straps, and the ears were not very prominent.

The CBs allow us to compare many similar bakes from different bakers. The variances produced are eye opening.

Teach me, master.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

All the instructions are in there:

20 min autolyse, 10% bassinage w/salt, 5 min rest, 20 French Folds, 5 min rest, 20 FFs, Letter Folds at 20, 40, 60 min, retard, divide & shape after "a few" hours, retard, bake 480dF.  Steam 13 min, bake another 13 min, 3 min vent. 

Sticking with the many fewer FFs.  The LFs are way more gentle than in the past.  30 min. rest between pre-shape and shape.  Removed from retard and directly onto oven peel.  Also ensuring that I get minimal hydration on initial F&W before autolyse starts.  Just enough to get the flour wet.  The true "shaggy mass".

I checked for a thin crust and it seemed to have it, so I turned off the light and took this picture...

Not as thin as Don's but in the general ballpark.

Benito's picture
Benito

That would make a great nightlight Alan.  The ears you achieve are definitely the best of the CB.  The crumb is also awesome.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Your baguettes are so unique and very different from Don and I (using the same formula). I wonder if our ovens (including Benny & Doc’s) don’t play a great role in our outcomes.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

its own characteristics.  When we moved in here, the apartment had a Westinghouse single box oven.  A few years after I began baking we swapped it out for a GE double oven - small box on top, "bread" oven below.  

It's been a few years now, but I recall very minor growing pains in moving from one to the other.  I suppose altitude could affect a bake in the same oven, a baker in Denver with my oven might get different results.  And Dan, with your gas oven, the work is unfortunately cut out for you to maintain the appropriate steam environment.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form

The pdf is text searchable and is current up until approximately October 1, 2020. Also the Table of Contents contain links to particular bakes.

Hopefully this will help to condense the data into something that is more digestible and informative.

Thanks to Alan to putting this together. I can only imagine the time and patience this must have required.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Well, made with Doves farm pasta flour (https://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/products/organic-pasta-flour-x-1kg), which, according to Abe, is 50% durum flour, although on the packaging it doesn't say the ratio. So semolina baguettes!

Formula and process are here, based on alfanso's semolina baguette recipe: https://fgbc.dk/tkk

Shaping was slightly less uniform than the first time, but I'm OK with it. Just need more practice.

Baked same as previously.

Result is ridiculously crisp crust (I also switched on the convection for the last few minutes to get the dark colour), andsoft, not particularly open crumb. Taste is great!

Guess which one was baked separately (wanted to test on one and see if everything is going OK). Also, I tried scoring the second two almost vertically, and actually they sort of have ears on both sides, and even more prominent on the "wrong" side! Not sure how visible that is in the pictures.



Directly baked on steel, so the bottom is a little dark and hard, but not burned!

Crumb:

Benito's picture
Benito

They look good Ilya, the crust looks thin and has great colour.  Shaping is fine as are the ears.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks Benny, I'm not particularly displeased with either, but shaping could be better, and ears just look quite different from the previous ones, but not in a bad way. I feel like I should score with more shorter cuts though, these cuts look a little loo tong.

I wonder how to make the crumb more uniform and a little more open. From reading the comments, there seem to be two directions of though: actually to be firmer during shaping, but also not create quite as much tension, to allow for more expansion. Does that sound right to you?

Benito's picture
Benito

You could try scoring with four scores rather than three next time and see what you prefer.  You certainly get more practice with four vs three.

I can tell you what I do, which may or may not be what others have found successful for them.  I am not that gentle with shaping, as in my videos I do pat down the dough prior to final shaping.  I think this redistributes the gases in the dough.  I do think pretty good tension circumferentially is important to good oven spring and ears etc. 

How much did you allow the dough to rise during bulk fermentation and did you do a further proofing after final shaping?

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks!

I am not sure how much rise I got - I tried the aliquot jar previously a couple of times and it just didn't work for me, didn't show any discernible rise when I could see the dough was ready! Perhaps the jar I was using was too small, maybe then the friction on the edges is too high to let the dough rise... I was basically using the smallest tall jar I had to minimize amount of dough going in there.

And with just ~1kg dough in a big bowl I was using I really couldn't tell how much rise I had. There was some, but not much. The dough didn't feel puffy, and there were very few bubbles I could see. It was 3 hours at ~25°C, which is on the short side for what I typically do. After shaping I let it proof for 30 min at room temperature and then put in the fridge for the night.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

this is a superb start.  Excellent whether new or old acquired skills!  Seriously curious how you got so far so fast.  What is your baking background?

One of the most challenging aspects of baguettes is the formation of ears that lift off the grigne, rather than just spread out during oven spring.  These are really well defined and even seasoned baguette bakers would be envious.  Don't take my word for it, have a gander at baguettes on a google search.  I agree with Benny - if these are about 36-38 cm long, your baguettes will prosper from a 4th score, and quite likely open a little more on oven spring.  

I'm a big fan of the dark bake, so these appeal to my aesthetically as well.  It seems that it frequently comes  down to the camera and lighting, but the crumb is lacking some of the classic yellow coloration of semolina breads.

I assume that you're displaying the dark baked bottom for a different purpose - the color from contact with the baking steel, but you have sealed the seam quite well, barely a trace of its existence in the photo.

Awarding you the recent malaprop of braguettes for these beauties.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you so much, you are too kind, there is still a lot of work to do, although I won't lie - I am quite pleased with these results.

Not much baking background. Just one of those who picked up sourdough quarantine baking around 6 months ago (but have been consistently baking at least twice a week since then). Never baked bread before that, only occasional scones or cakes, and a couple of times yeasted sweet pies or rolls following my grandma's recipe :) I did try baguettes a few times, but every time they would consistently fail (e.g. see the other thread I started just before joining the CB).

Yeah these are a little shorter than that, around 32-34 cm (although I was aiming for nearer to 40 cm, the length of my steel) but next time I'll try 4 scores (what about even 5 short ones? how would this affect the result? maybe I'll try different number of scores for comparison!).

Re colour: I don't know exactly how much semolina is in the flour, unfortunately. Abe thought it was 50%, but the packaging doesn't say. I just assumed it was somewhere in that range (it's the second ingredient, so can't be more than 50%, but hopefully not much lower). There is definitely a light yellow hint to the colour, but not strikingly.

Thank you for the award, not sure I deserve it already with these!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Interesting, I just noticed a minor issue - the baguettes are a little bent, with tips pointing slightly upwards. Is that something to do with the heat from the steel, actually?

Benito's picture
Benito

That’s pretty normal in my experience Ilya.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Ah interesting, thanks Benny! I wonder what causes it. I have a feeling it must be due to high heat from the steel, not sure why though... Need to think about it (or google).

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Ilya, I'm not a member of the baguette-brigade, but the amateur-engineer in me thinks you could benefit by insulating/shading the baking steel from the radiant heat of the oven's lower heating element. Radiant heat from electric oven elements gets  to 900 F, maybe more.  And the steel conducts it quickly.  Benny has one solution. But if you have an unused rack under the rack that holds the steel, even a cookie sheet could serve to block/shade the radiant heat.

If there is a small steam pan in the rack under the steel's rack, just add a cookie sheet under the steam pan, or put in a cookie sheet when you take out the steam pan.

Radiant heat is like how your car overheats in the sun, versus being in the shade.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you for the suggestions!

That is exactly why I have been paying attention to (an posting pictures of) the bottoms. It seems in my setup the bottom doesn't get scorched quite as much as others have experiences when using steel. I don't  know why, but perhaps because in my oven the heating element is not directly exposed? Also actually when I put in the steaming setup it pretty much would block the radiant heat: I use two trays (one for a blast of steam, and one for continuous steaming) that quite neatly fit on the bottom of the oven. So at least during the first part of the bake that shouldn't be an issue (although the steel is preheated without them). Also I suppose the steam cools down the steel a bit too.

I prefer to use my spare big cooking sheet on top, to reduce the effective volume I need to keep hot, and steam (since in commercial ovens the height is much smaller, I think  it makes sense).

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