Community Bake - Baguettes by Alfanso
This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.
We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form
Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.
For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.
Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.
Alan writes:
I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread. It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.
I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.
Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.
This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."
NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary. Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.
Additional Resources
- Shaping and scoring Maurizio’s baguettes
- Scoring and baking Hamelman’s pain au levain with mixed SD starters
- Shaping and scoring Bouabsa baguettes (still in my infancy, they’ve come a long way since then!)
- Martin Philip shaping and baking baguettes
- Jeffrey Hamelman shapes baguettes
Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.
Danny
A late addition -
In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.
You pulled the dough out of bulk retard half way through. But we don't know the temperature of the dough at that point, and it may be significant. Since you retarded the shaped loaf for some additional (unknown) time, followed by some (or none) recovery time on the counter prior to oven entry, it is impossible to judge the relative temperature and thus the degree of additional fermentation that occured in the center of the baguette compared to what has happened near the surface. One hypothesis might be that the center of the shaped baguette had additional time at a slightly warmer temperature to mature the crumb and was thus more open than the crumb closer to the crust where, being directly exposed to the refrigerated air in the retarder, it did not undergo much additional fermentation/maturation and so remained fairly tight through the bake.
Doc,
Sure would like to solve this one...
Shot of the crumb so we can gauge the crust thickness. I'm happiest when the crust is about a thick or slightly thicker than and egg shell. That close up might support doc doughs hypothesis maybe. Is it a thick crust dan ?
As my mother-in-law might say. “mais, dats sum tin crus der chere”.
I've never seen the edges like that before. Maybe me Hammelman can bless this thread again and weigh in. The interior crumb looks really great almost gelatinous which every once in a blue moon I just get it that way and really love it. Not gummy but gelatinous.
Btw way - dat be creole ? Definitely very 'Tin' alright !
Dan,
When I saw the crumb on your Bouabsa it immediately reminded me of the crumb that I got from Maurizio's Levain baguettes, back in Sept. 2018. I infrequently ever get a crumb that has the same characteristics as yours here, which seems to be an unusual crumb structure, and I thought so then too. The gelatinous crumb seems so unusual to me.
Pretty much the only things they have in common with your Bouabsa bake are the mixes being in the 70's hydration range, and the bassinage step.
These are Maurizio's Levain formula at 70% hydr. and 75% hydr.
The 75% hydr. version was fairly difficult to shape cleanly, I've never had an issue with shaping the Bouabsa dough.
Compliments to Maurizio!
I am presently considering the possibility that my dough is being overly developed early on. The tight crumb portion reminds me of commercially available sandwich bread. It is said that they beat that dough to death in mixers.
I am not saying that developing a dough fully doesn’t produce great results. By doing so, my latest bakes have catapulted me into a new realm. And for that I am appreciative. But for me (at this time) the new frontier is evenly distributed, open crumb. “Beam me up, Scotty”!
Let’s see where this fiasco winds up... LOL
OH! Maury’s shaping ain’t bad either. Love the football look!
The outer layer was cooked quickly by the steam and did not expand for some reason I don't yet understand, but the core of the loaf, expanding more slowly and at an intermediate temperature produced a more open crumb.
Doc, wouldn’t you think if the crust hardened too quickly, the ears would not have fractured.
Although, the loaves were extremely small circumference for their length (~330g and 20-21” long) they didn’t get as large circumference wise as I’d like. Raw dough ~4” circumference and baked off at 7” circumference (my best guess).
Because these loaves were time lapse video’d I didn't use a top heat shield. It would have blocked the over head in-oven lighting. If pre-mature hardening was the issue, the heat shield would have probably solved that. Keep in mind the bake originated at 550F.
These baguettes were the lightest yet, by far...
Theres a video on king Arthur's YouTube where jeff Hammelman evaluates baguette crumb and I seem to recall him talking to this exact point about it being tights near the cust. I think that's fairly normal. What strikes me as more obvious is the somewhat inconsistent spread of good versus tight crumb. Somehow I just chalk that up to shaping and the goal to really cylindarize the loaf so that the heat spreads evenly during the bake. Aside from that these are just great !
Thanks, Geremy.
Here is the link you mentioned. It takes you straight to the baguette inspection section.
Jeffrey talks about too much pressure sealing the seam as another possiblity.
I am now think -
I welcome your opinions. Pro & Con for my ideas and any others you may think of.
I have a plan forward...
I was coming on to ask if you did any room temp fermentation prior to baking. I'm halfway through my first round of Bouabsa baguettes. The first half of the dough is on the oven and had a room temp rest of 45 minutes. The second half is going to skip that.
It'll be interesting to have your set to compare it to.
The dough went straight from retard to the oven. Next time (tomorrow) the dough will proof at RT for a while (maybe 30 min?) after shaping the then go back into retard. Then slashed and baked straight out of the fridge.
looking forward to seeing yours...
I keep expecting Jeffrey to slice onto his hand...every time I watch - especially now have gashed my finger with my lame the other day. To his point and my insisting emulating louis lamour's technique, he (mr hammelman) suggests that too much stress applied during rolling. That skill I think can always improve no matter how many times you've rolled these suckers out. Keep on rolling folks !
I think you should try the longer bulk retard, which is when the flavor develops, divide, pre-shape, shape, proof, bake as the original recipe states and skip the retard of the shaped loaf. I think that would help the crumb be more consistent. Maybe the crumb dries out and gets thicker if it is in the couche for too long. The crust should shatter when it is cut into. Like your partner in the wood chipper.
Don, please send me the link to your formula and process.
He was being tossed from a coffee can over the Pacific.
Advisory - quite adult language ahead https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWz8NGIisMo
Dan,
Your baguettes look so unique. Forget about the shaping which looks as though it came off a lathe, but those scores! Reminds me of excavator earth auger screws.
Really beautiful work. And now...you've been indoctrinated into the simple pleasures of IDY baggies. Tag, you're it!
Watching you try to communicate with Bouabsa was funny. He seemed to be a very nice guy. I think most bakers are pretty nice guys.
Plan to use the Bouabsa formula next with T65 French flour. That’s going to be a real learning experience, 10% protein. No heavy gluten development with this one.
The rug did pull the whole room together.
I have always adhered to my memory of David's recipe as:
I autolyse 20 minutes or so with the yeast then add salt and held back water.
I do minimal mixing using the Rubaud method until dough just comes together. No kneading or S&F
Two hours with 2 or three coil folds. Then into fridge for 21 hrs
Divide cold and very loosely fold into letter wait 20 or 30 minutes
Shape (Hammelman method) proof while oven heats to 480
Stone on the bottom rack, boiling water poured into sheet pan on the top rack with care
Ten minutes with steam or until browning begins remove pan and bake another 15 minutes.
For the sourdough version I just deducted the amounts of flour and water for the starter
The Link with Janedo probably explains it best great-baguette-quest-n°3-anis-bouabsa
your work continue on here, I remember learning from your work in 2017.
When last I recall, you were in an "abbey" or meditation center in Hawaii pumping out dozens of batards a day. Do I recall correctly? Welcome back to both the mainland and TFL.
Yes that's me! After 12 years I decided to leave the monastery and teach people mindfulness and meditation. I'm currently competing with a few people to also work with NASA.
I have a lovely partner Helena, and we are having a baby boy in January.
Life moves fast! I'm excited to begin baking again, and I'm about to begin an autolyse right now—first loaf since becoming a civilian.
Two small batches with nutritional yeast made 3x 350g baguettes each. 11.8% pff, 67% hydration, 2% salt, 100% high gluten white flour. 23°C BF for 3 hr, with folds at 20 min intervals until it had enough strength. Bulk retard at 38°F for to 40°F dough temp. Shape direct from retard, counter proof for 45 min and bake.
The two on the left had 0.25% nutritional yeast added and the two on the right had 0.125%. There was a significant difference in extensibility from the beginning and both batches shaped without a pre-shaping step or rest. The 0.125% batch wanted to spring back a little but was easliy pursuaded to do what I asked. I will probably adopt the 0.25% nutritional yeast number when I want some increase in extensibility. Both batches were soft and tender when they went to the oven so I might try a batch with no counter proof just to see what difference it makes. The other option is to put them back into the retarder at a little higher temp for a longer time so that they still handle well on the way to the oven.
There's been a fair amount of discussion in this thread about the benefits of a bulk retard and subsequent shaping vs. shaping either before retard or at some point during retard withe the shaped dough being placed back into retard again.
While not an exhaustive review of Mr. Hamelman's Bread, what I find is that he does not list retarding "any" dough that is employing commercial yeast alone. They are listed as having a bench proof only.
The levain breads are a mixed bag of both bench proofing as well as retarding for about "half" of the entries. Some do not mention retard in the methodology at all. However, in no case is there any mention of retarding before shaping. All formulae that I've seen so far will have the dough shaped prior to retard.
I'm not going to rewrite the passage from Bread, 2nd edition, page 146 here. Rather to summarize, he writes that same concept. Breads can be retarded after shaping, with the bake delayed for up to 24 hours, and he states two reasons for doing so:
I take no sides, as I've done both, although my own retard experience has me pulling the dough halfway through as mentioned above or, more recently, abiding by Mr. Hamelman's method of shaping prior to retard. I also acknowledge the we've clearly discovered (MTloaf) that the Bouabsa dough is designed to be completely retarded prior to shaping.
As we've seen over and over, when it comes to bread baking, there are likely a hundred ways to do something right and a few hundred ways to do something wrong. Everyone's own experience, technique, oven and kitchen helps inform us what may best meet our needs.
And there is always the opportunity to fine tune our experience to see whether applied changes work for each of us. If not, then dial back.
I am all for each baker finding out for themselves what works best for them and adjusting recipes to fit life schedules. However to evaluate a recipe I think it is best to follow it faithfully to establish a baseline before making alterations. Hammelman does mention retarding yeasted bread in the straight dough section. He also recommends it for Challah and Brioche to facilitate handling and shaping.
I always loved the preceding page so it is included
Don, thanks for the post!
I find it interesting that the dough is BF, then degassed and retarder. and then it is degassed 2 or 3 additional times after that during the initial phase of retardation.
Have you done that?
What is the thought process of doing so?
Excess gas in a yeasted dough CO2 can affect flavor and choke out the yeast. I do that with pizza dough that has been in the fridge a few days by balling it up again which degasses it. The small amount of yeast in the Bouabsa does not seem to require it but I always despair when I see it puffed up with large bubbles. I don't like to over stretch a cold dough because the gluten can get torn.
Don, when bulk retarding Bouabsa would you recommend a light fold or two as the dough begins to cool?
The logic of degassing in the fridge may have something to do with the fact that dough bulked in mass will take a while to cool down to fridge temp and will continue to ferment. And CY being possibly more problematic.
like the baguette recipe will cool quickly and evenly. A larger recipe like a few pan loaves would require folding to redistribute the chilled outside of the dough is my guess too as you surmised.
Yeast has no dependence on CO2 as an input for growth and yeast stops replicating when it runs out of food or gets too cold. Also I don't understand how CO2 affects flavor.
But commercial yeast if VERY active and if you don't fold or degas dough as it cools you are likely to have a flabby batch when it finally cools off. So you can control this by starting the retard earlier or degassing it at some intermediate point(s) during the chilling process. Hamelman offers a couple of different retard temperatures and corresponding retard times for those who are using the retard to manage production schedule. For most home bakers who don't have a separately temperature controlled cooler in which to retard, and use a domestic refrigerator which runs at around 38-40°F, once the dough has reached 38°F yeast fermentation has pretty much stopped.
However, a sourdough has LAB which continues to produce acid at temperatures below where the yeast shuts down. This is one of the falacies of trying to use Gänzel's model to predict growth rates for both yeast and LAB. His model is fine for it's intended purpose but not totally accurate outside of the identified bounds (Tmin for his yeast [not commercial yeast] was 8°C [~46°F] and for the LAB he was investigating Tmin was around 3°C[~37°F].
Referring to CY, “once the dough has reached 38°F yeast fermentation has pretty much stopped.”
Is the commonly used practice of retarding CY dough balls for pizza for 24-48 hours to increase flavor a fallacy? If the yeast cease and there is no LAB, what would contribute to increased flavor over a period of long retard?
”constantly thinking...”
As I was merely running through the individual bread listings themselves.
In general I also agree to the value of establishing a baseline based on the author's write-up. But can't completely agree as we've all seen how skewed the BF timings are in FWSY, and with no explanation as to why the levains are ridiculously and "carelessly" oversized and discarded, nor why the BFs are also so dang long.
Even in Bread, while Mr. Hamelman writes with an eye toward the home baker, his book leans more toward the professional audience and the bakery environment.
Also, for those of us with competent baking skills, I believe that we can look at a formula and decide to go off the rails from the get-go. I've experienced a few times where I've abided (not The Dude) by the formula and to my chagrin paid the penalty because I should have know better as to what works in my kitchen and oven.
All this talk about T65 T55 and T45 flours made me decide today to use some of my T55 (I think it is but I forgot to label it so it could be T65) flour that I bought when flour was hard to find here recently. So I have another batch of three baguettes in bulk cold retard using Abel’s formula again. Because of the irregular browning last time, I’ve increased the diastatic malt to 0.5% which is what I typically add to most of my sourdoughs. I’ve also increased the hydration this time as I did a bassinage so the hydration is 72% rather than 70% the first time out. I let it ferment to 30% rise and now will leave it in bulk cold retard until tomorrow morning when I’ll shape and bake before work. So it will have had at least 18.5-19.5 hours of cold retard before it gets baked. I decided not to add nutritional yeast because I wanted to repeat this with as few variables changed as possible to compare.
Benny, I didn’t mess with mine either. We definitely shouldn’t need any additional extensibility with this flour. I chose not to seriously develop the gluten up front. Quick mix and stretch and folds only. I am under the impression that this flour must be handled with gentle care.
I also didn’t do as many slap and folds this time out, I did 150 because I wanted to make sure the salt, IDY and diastatic malt were well mixed after the bassinage. It will be interesting to see what effect the longer cold retard and somewhat gentler handling does. Oh I guess the T55 flour is another change from my AP flour the first time out, more variables than I initially intended...
With your fancy french flour. I am green with envy. You will be wearing berets and spreading snails on baguettes next. Do us a fava and give the bean flour another try with your precious cargo. It was originally added to strengthen the gluten in weaker flour and thats what it did to my AP that I should have added more water to. Look forward to seeing your bakes with the real deal.
This time I took MTloaf's advice, and bumped up the hydration from 68% to 70%. Other changes from 1st run. Eliminated the NY, dropped my traditional 300 FFs down to 200 FFs still split by ~5 minutes at the halfway point. Shaped right out of BF, this run had a full retard time frame of about 14 hours.
The dough was so easy to work with, and created no pushback. Final shaping was a snap. However, the first of the three was a bit of training wheels with slight barbell ends and little pitched middle. The other two were just dandy. Unfortunately, in my overcompensation from the prior run's runaway extensibility I did roll these a bit too short - 18 inches each, with barbell at 21 inches. Muscle memory, still in the early stages of development, coincided with fear of over-lengthening them.
All in all I'm pleased with the bake. As best as my palate can recall, and the wife agrees with me, the NY run contributed a slightly bitter flat taste. These seem "sweeter" and more enjoyable. The crust is super thin and snaps when biting into. Which I intend to do a lot more of before the next run!
Preheat at 480dF, bake at 460dF, 13 minutes of steam, 12 minutes after release and rotation, 2 minutes of venting.
As before 400g x 3, baked weight 320g.
my next bake will be the same, but I'll be scaling back the WW to 5%, maintain the 5% rye, and let it rip.
Alan, I really like the crumb. The holes don’t have to be huge for me. Just medium open and nicely spaced. Your’s fits the bill. Nice crumb all the way to the crust.
Gotta’ luv those third degree blisters...
” Muscle memory, still in the early stages of development, coincided with fear of over-lengthening them.” why not give the TRAINING WHEELS a try?
You "amateur" of love. We go to great lengths to make sticks. I threw the NY overdose baggies out in the yard last night and this morning a deer had it sideways in his mouth and seemed to be enjoying it. I thought it was great the way Hammelman explained the etymology of the word amateur in his comment here I haven't read his book cover to cover but there are pearls of wisdom even in the breads I don't intend to make. This one is one of my favorites and is applicable to right now on whether to venture out.
And the deer rejected it too. No, I'm not badmouthing NY, I guess under the circumstances, and amount used, it just didn't suit me at all, at least for this past bake with it. I wonder if I were to roll out a really long rope of dough, I suppose the NY would be a fantastic help.
When it come to amateurs, I'm right up there!
Just this morning in an email exchange with Dan, I wrote this about what Mr. Hamelman said pertaining to our CB:
"The exchange of so much knowledge has emerged in our group research and testing, A true laboratory of learning. I imagine way more than any of the other CBs. Could be wrong of course, but we are continuing to unlock the secrets of creating some fine baguettery! As Jeffrey Hamelman said about we amateurs - we break ground and experiment in ways that the pros don’t always or often do. Well, that just might be because we don’t have nonstop busy bakery schedules to maintain and adhere to, nor businesses to run, and are far from tied to our core beliefs and set in our ways!"
Regardless of the reason, this really has been a fine exercise in collaboration, discovery and experimental baking. No sniping, no animosity, no one-upmanship. Just a happy and dedicated group of bread fools trying to be better than yesterday and drag the others along with us as we go. Ain't a bad model to be a part of! Where else can you have this much fun and so many carbs for free?
@MTloaf You would enjoy reading Bread cover to cover (though the part about braiding may not prove useful until you want to make challah) and besides being educational it is a great read. The text around the recipes is often more valuable than the formulas themselves. It is my favorite bread book (I have a first edition and I have rebound it once already)
Read the whole book including doing a 6 braid Challah. I got bogged down in the flour testing part but slogged through it. I heard him mention on the Isolation Baking Show that he is working on a third edition that I will be looking forward to because my 1st edition is getting tattered. I am hoping he will devote even more pages to the home baking amateurs like myself and include the additional recipes in the 2nd. On one of the shows he also mentioned CO2 affecting the flavor while talking about folding. The Horst Bandel rye story is one of my favorites. His book has something for everyone. Arts and science with a touch of humanity.
I've been doing a lot of baking- just not posting. I don't have a tremendous amount of experience and have a lot of ground work to cover. It might be easier to go to another format but I'm quite hooked. I've played with fava and NY and hydration. And shaping before/after retard. And came to the same conclusions as everyone else.
Finally figured out my oven configuration. Fibrament stone with additional layer of quarry tile on the bottom most rack, loaf pan with lava rocks next to it for presteam, baking pan on uppermost rack with lava rocks. Initial steam in bottom oven at 500. Move to upper oven to complete bake. The upper element in the bottom oven is killer and just not workable. Lots of ruined dough in the learning process.
I decided to put myself up against me. I went back to the original original formula and my original flour... and wanted to see what happened. I'm not displeased. My crumb is more even, my shaping is better, my bakes are more even. And I know a lot more in general.
Now...I'm ready to move onto the revised formula and maybe reduce the whole grains, work on BF times which might be hurting oven spring, scoring- partway through 14 loaves today narrowing it down.
Thanks all for sharing. It is fascinating.
For the record, Hamelman's Pain au Levain makes an extremely challenging hamburger bun. In case you were wondering.
Jen, you are a much better baker than you give yourself credit for. Most of us have been working at this for decades.
For a new baker, you make this stuff look easy.
Keep on posting...
OH! If my crumb turns out like yours for tomorrow’s bake, I’ll be a happy camper.
The color and thin crust ain’t bad, either.
I agree with Dan on this Jen, it is really impressive what you’re able to do at your stage of baking bread, very impressive.
This is sheer determination bordering on insanity. I figure if y'all can do it, I can do it too. The amount to learn seems staggering but...one loaf at a time, eh?
Many thanks- there is a wealth of knowledge here to draw from! I've done about 10 years of baking in the last several weeks so at this rate, I'll be caught up in no time.
Your progress is showing. The oven fine tuning is paying off. A test kitchen requires test eaters to do more than cheer you on. I hope they help with the dishes. The Pain au Levain makes a good pizza crust.
Oh my word- all the dishes!
I should share loaves with others but I'm always sure tomorrow's bakes will be better than today's.
We shall pizza it soon then!
Jen - It really is hard to belive that you are a beginning baker. Those loaves exhibit an awful lot of learning. It is really supurb execution.
One step forward, two steps back. I think this is the theme of today’s bake for me. I once again used Abel’s Baguette au Levain formula that Alfanso shared his formula for. This is an almost all white flour (my starter is fed red fife so the only whole grain is in the starter At 1%) using a levain 9% PFF and 0.07% IDY.
I used what I believe to be T55 flour this time instead of AP.
I bulk fermented until 30% rise, then cold retarded the whole dough in bulk in the fridge at 2ºF for 18hr 45 mins. Pre-shaped loosely, bench rested 10 mins then shaped. This is where I ran into problems. This dough was super extensible. By the time I was ready to roll the shaped dough it was already at the maximal length of my baking steel. Trying to roll it a little bit to get a better final shape made it too long. Once placed in the oven the ends were touching the oven’s back wall or got folded under the parchment paper and under itself. At this point I should have side loaded them as the baking steel has more width than depth. I’ll have to do this next time to allow me to better shape my baguettes.
Still no ears : (. More practice is needed. I also note that they are still not browning evenly. I wonder if adding the malt to the flour and mixing then before autolyse would more evenly distribute it and result in more even browning? Oh I also increase diastatic malt to 0.5%.
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You're getting continued good shaping and good oven spring, that's for sure, just no ears on the grigne.
My experience is that higher hydration doughs which request a bassinage, especially almost all-white flour doughs, generally are slack and quite extensible. Certainly true here and even called out in the formula as such.
And that creates a problem for baguette shaping. One solution is in your pre-shape, which you don't mention here. If you don't already do so, try a soft small boule shape or, what I do, a short barrel, also gently shaped. This should give you a better shaping experience for these slack doughs. Don't purposely stretch out the dough manually during the pre-rolling phase. Allow it to lengthen naturally as you start the shaping process. By the time you begin to roll, the length will be shorter and afford you more control.
I've taken to combining all dry ingredients into a separate mixing bowl and whisking them together to ensure an even distribution. Lately, since watching one of Martin Philip's Isolation videos, I've also included the salt before the autolyse. Levain gets whisked into the water before any dry is incorporated. By the time the dry meets the wet in the main mixing bowl, all ingredients are assured of their proper distribution.
And your baggies are now eligible for membership in the Jimmy Durante Nose club.
At the divid and pre-shape step, I rolled the doughs loosely into a barrel shape, however, because I cut them starting from a circle to thirds they start as triangles. Thus the rolled shape isn’t very symmetrical. Next time since this flour gives a fairly slack dough, I will pre-shape as a boule, that is a much better idea for such a slack dough. Since it is so extensible, I don’t need to have to start out so close to the final length at all. Good idea and I should have thought of that, duh, live and learn.
I’ve made note of your mixing all dry ingredients including salt together for next time. Since white flour takes so little time to hydrate and this flour is so slack and extensible I guess it doesn’t really need much of an autolyse anyhow.
Thanks for those observations and suggestions Alan.
Next bake will be better!
Benny - autolyse seems to serve only two functions, allowing the flour to fully hydrate, and giving the amylase enzymes enough time to produce maltose before the salt is added so that sugar availability is not a limiting factor during the remainder of the fermentation. This argues that the diastatic malt definitely should go in with the flour and get mixed before the autolyse. In commercial applications autolyse lasts on the order of 20 minutes and is done after a short initial mix. In the best documnented autolyse application I found the mixing was sufficient to pull the dough off the sides of the mixer.
Doc, would you still do an autolyse without levain, yeast and salt then for this recipe? This recipe calls for the levain to be added during the autolyse, so strictly speaking not really an autolyse, but a fermentolyse. Can the presence of diastatic malt help compensate for the addition of salt if one was going to do an all in mix?
I think at a minimum I will add the diastatic malt to the autolyse so that way at least it will definitely be more uniformly dispersed throughout. It sounds like Alan is already adding all dry ingredients at the beginning including the salt and getting good results on his bakes.
There is no benefit from doing an autolyse if you are going to add the salt since it is the salt that substantially slows the amylase activity which is why you do the autolyse in the first place. So yes, do an autolyse, and include everything except the salt (and fat if you will be adding fat to the dough). Mix enough to get all of the flour wet and let it sit for at least 20 min - though longer does produce more maltose but after 20 min you are ahead of the yeast. Actually, if you incorporate the yeast or starter up front there might be an advantage to a longer autolyse. But 20 min is enough to get the flour fully hydrated (assuming it was wet to start with). The added malt will increase the maltose production rate so that is helpful, and of course the maltose that is left over after the yeast take what they need will help with browning which in your case is why you are adding the malt.
for my autolyse until I started to maintain the Hamelman 125% hydration levains. In many of his formulae, Mr. Hamelman will add the levain to the initial pre-autolyse stage. Without doing so the hydration would be too low and the initial combining of the flour and water produces clumps, which love to maintain un-hydrated seams of flour and become troublesome to incorporate at fine dough mix time. I pretty much only mix by hand, my mechanical mixer is a 35 year old Kitchen Aid with the questionably useful dough hook. Therefore hand mixing is my experience.
I began to add the levain up front, and thus cut my autolyse time from ~30 minutes to 20 minutes to compensate for the levain being incorporated. I further expanded that to my standard 100% hydration levains mixes as well, and even to my 75% levain, because when mixing by hand I always found the thicker and stickier 75% levain to be more difficult to comfortably incorporate.
I am taking the word, at least for now, of Mr. Philip who claims that he does not see the yeast and salt being counter to each other. Here is where he advises that it is okay to combine the two at the outset.
And I'm also not promoting the way that I do it as the way that anyone else should. I can only report on my own experience.
It would seem that the yeast and salt idea would be an easy one to test. I'll do something in the next couple of days on it. I have been wondering on it myself. Depending on what I'm testing for, I have been adding it initially to the dough. I hate the process of kneading in salt water. Bad on cuts and hands with carpal tunnel!
There is plenty of water in the dough to disslove the salt during the kneading process. Just dump it on the dough and let it sit during the autolyse so that you don't forget it. Then mix as you normally would. It will go right into solution. If you want it to go even faster use popcorn salt which is a very fine grind.
Gänzle investigated the sensitivity of both yeast and L sanfrancisiencis to salt and concluded that yeast tolerated up to 8% salt while the LAB could tolerate only 4% before growth stopped. The data clearly shows that LAB are more sensitive to salt than yeast, and hints that there may be an optimal value around 2% where the differential growth rate of LAB vs yeast is maximized (see the plot at the bottom of page 3 of the linked paper). And while it is not a huge penalty, yeast growth is slowed by the addition of 2% salt.
While reading your post a few thoughts came to mind.
Isn’t it amazing how one person can observe another, and see things in the actions of others that would never have been noticed if they were doing it themselves. (The story of my life).
Ears -
From the shiny crust and blisters it appears you are getting ample steam. What temp are you baking at?
Looking forward to reading about your take on the taste.
Never even occurred to me to cut a bit of dough off the ends, duh!
Yes good point about pre-shaping smaller, I will do a boule next time that way I’ll have more room to roll it out to the desired length without going too far. Maybe this will help with getting some ears.
I think the steaming is good, I’m using a Silvia towel and cast iron skillet. I’m also spritzing some extra water on the baguettes before I close the oven door. I baked this time at 500ºF. Last time my second set of three I forgot to turn the temperature down to 480ºF and it gave me such good oven spring I thought I’d start at this temperature again. Once 13 mins was up, I removed the steaming equipment and turned the temperature to 480ºF. I think next time I will turn it down to 480ºF and turn the convection on as well, perhaps that will help with the browning, to make it more even.
Thanks Dan for your suggestions and observations.
Benny if your oven goes higher, you might give that a try. Think about it. Once the oven is open the cavity heats drops drastically. If f I could go 650F I would! The oven can be dropped down (if you wish) after loading. My baguettes make 550 straight through on many occasions. Other times the heats is dropped to ~485F convection. Either way the results are good.
Geremy told me to bake hot and fast if I wanted a softer chew; and I do...
Going to bake some T65 now.
upon loading the dough. I'm much more concerned about the temperature of the baking deck, which will retain the same heat for a long time, depending on composition and thickness.
For example, my oven, pre-heated to 480dF for a 460dF bake, will drop to ~425dF by the time the oven is loaded, water poured over the lava rocks and oven door closed. I immediately reset the baking temp on the oven to force it to re-fire. It comes back to desired temp within mere minutes into the bake. Meanwhile the steam is allowing the crust to begin expanding and the baking deck likely hasn't lost more than a degree or two, if that, in the process. And will help bring the oven temp back up with its own heat.
A questioning thought popped into mind when I looked at Benny’s baguette concerning ears. The “skin on his crust near the slash appeared thin. A quick search through the CB revealed Alan’s baguettes and there seemed to be a noticeably thicker skin at the scores.
Is there a correlation here?
Here is the scoring close-up on my posted run of the same formula, with all white flour vs. 25% whole grain, lower hydration in Dan's photo above.
Benny's grigne is getting no lift, but I don't know whether the thickness of the score comes into play. His scoring lines are certainly clean.
I wonder if I'm now scoring at too acute an angle, I think I might be at this point. I may need to angle my blade less perhaps. I think my blade may be too close to parallel to the surface of the dough. What do you think would that partially explain the lack of ears?
Would the lack of rolling of the dough also contribute to lack of ears? As I said, they were at length already before rolling so I rolled very very little.
I’m not convinced the skin thickness is related to scoring.
Just pulled my first T65s out of the oven. The scoring is sketchy and will need to be refined with this type of flour. Nothing will seem normal to American bakers with French flour, nothing...
A lot of folks have trouble adapting to new flours. I think that these are near perfect. Another Bouabsa run?
Alan, yes Bouabsa, but the hydration was dropped from 75 to 69. AND, next time I’ll strongly consider 67%. French flour is a different beast. It forms a great gluten with little work, but it is not strong like American flours. The dough has a shiny “clay-like” appearance. Scoring is quite different, especially since the skin is more fragile. At least, that was my experience the first time out of the gate.
Although, a slight exaggeration, the dough is more akin to Ciabatta than bread dough. Not really, just trying to make a point. The flour contains 15.5% moisture, and Michael tells us American is 14%. So it starts off wetter by 1.5%.
This is not a flour for new bakers.
we assume (unless janedo bumped the hydration up to meet North American flour characteristics). He might be a tad more adept at handling French flour. Oui? ?
Loved to see him handle that flour @ 75%. Don’t doubt it can be done, but watching would be an experience. Bet Trevor could give it a good go...
Geremy cautioned me to shape this dough cold. Believe me, I will in the future.
that I'd never used before. I don't recall any issue with the handling...
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/62964/abel-abel-and-yumi
@Danny - I would not trust a label to correctly reflect the moisture content of flour milled in France after it had been opened in LA (or LA either). Weigh out 100g of flour spred on a sheet pan and heat it to 150°F for a couple of hours (weigh it every 20 min to observe the weight loss). You should expect it to decline and level off. Then reweigh the pan and calculate how much water was in the flour when you started. Let us know what you find. I would bet it is not 15.5%.
Should the flour be useable after the test. Will the heat have any ill affects. I’m treating this stuff like gold dust.
The Bouabsa recipe relies and produces more oven spring than others. Not to say that all baguettes don't benefit from it but they should be proofed to less than the maximum. The bursting is related to explosive oven spring and the thin crust. I am betting the crumb will be good. What did you scale them to? Do I see a new wood shaping surface with an edge to hold it in place? Did you retard the shaped sticks? The ears look nice but the crust looks thicker.
Don, they weighed ~350. The dough was retarded around 21 hr.
Here is my loading board setup. It works without a hitch.
As far as the crust thickness. The CB has gotten so large, it is hard to navigate (a good problem to have). Concerning the latest bake with T65, the crust was phenomenal! Thin, crispy and crackly. Baking more of those tomorrow, will add 2% Fava Beans hoping to increase the strength just a tad.
Ya know, for the longest time I haven't really thought too much about blade angle. I know it needs to be there, and in a denser low hydration dough I'll definitely score more "down" than pure angle. What I find is that even though the angle of the bade for higher hydration doughs is more pronounced, the slight difference at which the blade enters the dough is really minimal, but there. If that makes sense. If you are thinking that the angle is too pronounced - overcompensating perhaps, then you might be "filleting" the dough rather than scoring it.
I think that rolling of the dough would have less impact than a weaker surface tension, although they can also be interconnected*. Weaker surface tension baguettes have the hallmark look of the spread but no loft to the ear. Here's a recent poolish all AP bake where I acknowledged at that time that my surface tension was poor.
* All the dang parts are interconnected! More so on baguettes than boules or batards.
Wouldn’t it be great if Alan could have scored one of Benny’s baguettes and had Benny score the others. From that we could (should) establish a truth about scoring angle.
I think Alan’s scoring would have also had less than perfect ears. But we may never know.
I’m not insinuating that score angle has no affect, but (as Alan & I spoke about yesterday) the condition of the dough, shaping, oven heat and steam all have to come together for perfection.
Given the characteristics that this flour seems to impart in this dough and the hydration of the dough I made, my blade angle was probably to close to parallel to the dough surface and probably the weight of the potential ear closed back down. There was still a decent bloom I guess because there was some opening at the score even before I got the dough into the oven and then good oven spring. But if the dough flap flopped down I wouldn't get an ear. That would make sense to me.
Benny, I know we've thought that the slash is able to "glue down" onto the dough and that this adhesion prevents the ear from forming. Are we sure this thought is valid?
This is what I've been considering. It may be completely wrong, but it is worth a thought. When the dough is slashed (at any angle) the gluten strands are separated, creating a permanent weak spot. If the remaining underlying gluten strands are strong and expands from increasing gas pressure it seems the slash would separate. I just viewed an old video and maybe we can draw a conclusion from watching it. You are able to use the YouTube settings to slow the video down to 1/4 speed. You also have the option to "scrub" the time line.
I'm not sure what is going on, but maybe together we can increase our understanding of the "glued down ears".
NOTE - the video below is considering pre-mature hardening of the crust as the culprit for that particular bake. I don't think that is Benny's problem, but the video may serve to help us better understand the dreaded "glued down ears" syndrome.
The video is best viewed using THIS LINK.
I remember watching this video before and just watched it again.
Yeah I’m really not sure what is causing the lack of ears, it isn’t lack of oven spring although mine didn’t poof up as much as your #14 batch did in your other time lapse video. Like most things in life, the causes are likely multifactorial. I didn’t do great on the shaping, so I’m sure that is a factor, I will alter my scoring though I do think I am overcompensating and as Alan said filleting the dough rather than scoring it. I do really like Abel’s formula because it has some of the character of sourdough, but also some of the characteristic of CY baguettes that I want.
To be repeated and hopefully with another step forward instead of back.
You get good ears when the dough is stiffer than what is shown in the video. I don't assess that as a shaping issue so much as a proofing issue. If the dough has a high hydration and/or is over proofed, it stretches rather than breaking. Hoop stress is maximum when the loaf takes on a cylindrical shape. If at that point the dough continues to stretch instead of fracturing along the slash, you will get no ear. Steam will help cook the surface quickly so that it is strong enough to crack instead of stretching when the skin is pulled tight by the expanding CO2 trapped in the crumb.
I'm in your boat....I've been extremely frustrated over my lack of ears. First of all, give yourself credit for consistent scoring even if it isn't exactly what you want. It implies control and care and you can work from there. That's what I'm trying to tell myself, at least.
It is hard to do when there are more fun aspects to focus on but have you considered putting a large amount of dough in front of you and only focusing on scoring? I wish now that I had photographed it (seemed like grunt work no one would want to see) but yesterday I had a double batch of P au Levain. I made 8 mini baguettes and 2 larger ones. I baked off one loaf at a time, varying the depth and angle of cut. I can't say that I'm entirely pleased yet but I have a much better direction. It was a rather long day of baking.
How deep are your scores? I had a big improvement when I increased the depth of the score and went at less of angle- essentially scoring under the dough.
As for dough handling...I'll post something soon. I want to repeat the experiment before making an official post. I manhandled one half of a batch of a high hydration dough roughly and there was not a large difference on crumb. If presented with a dough that was overly extensible, I wouldn't hesitate to add a little structure back in my dough by working it some. I'm rethinking the idea of shaping. What it really is is one last opportunity to correct the dough structure as needed for a proper bake. And if the dough is overly extensible, perhaps it is a good time to back that off just a bit.
I'm going to repeat my scoring practice with a lower hydration dough. I'll post it all then.
I think I’ve scoring deep enough, but who knows until I score well enough and have the right conditions to get an ear! I’d guess ½ - ¾ cm deep score? In terms of the angle the blade is almost parallel to the surface of the dough which is what I think you say you are also doing. I’m thinking of reducing the angle a bit because I may be overcompensating.
Make up a batch of 66% hydration dough and shape it. Then score it. Then fold it a few times and re-shape and re-score. Repeat until tired or consistent. You don't even need to include yeast, though salt makes a big difference in how the dough handles. If you want to try with dough that is closer in texture to your bread, just increase the hydration until it feels about the same.
Big changes this time. Tried authentic french T65 flour, a first for me. It was a learning adventure for sure. The characteristics is this flour is very unlike any other flour I’ve ever used. Bouabsa was the baguette of the day, but the hydration was reduced from 75% to 69. A much needed reduction. The flour is weak by nature and requires gentle handling. The gluten forms easily and a super supple and smooth dough is easily attainable. It displays a shiny and very cream colored appearance. The windowpane is surprisingly nice, although thin.
The bread bakes up exquisitely, and the crust crackles and the crumb is creamy, moist, and has a wonderful soft texture. The contrast between the crunchy crust and the soft interior is more pronounced than anything I’ve produced in the past.
The taste can best be described as clean, very clean. It should pair well with many additions and make great sandwiches. Update - just tried a piece with Truffle Salt and fresh cracked Black Pepper. It is wonderful! As a self confessed “sour head”, it lacks the depth and complexity that is so familiar to me. It will never replace sourdough, but it shouldn’t compete in the same arena.
Is the flour worth $2.62 per pound? For me, a resounding yes! Mostly because of the marvelous textures that I’ve been unable to produce from American flours. Future bakes may sway my opinion, but for now, “I’m a very happy camper”.
Even though things went awry during the bake, the results were surprisingly stellar. The crumb is much improved. God is smiling upon me. the saying, “you deserve a break today, is fits me perfectly”.
Below is a quick YouTube video showing the In-oven bake.
Use Video is best viewed using THIS LINK.
Dan your baguettes are beginning to have a look of their own now. You’re really getting quite consistent. That has great shaping with good ears and also a great crumb. If you like the flavour from sourdough you should try a hybrid bake like Abel’s if you haven’t already.
Such as crackly etc - you're echoing what I've been blabbing forever about. To me there is no equal - the french just know their $#!+ (pardon my french) when it comes to food. What a beautiful bake danny and so glad you're happy, and so glad to chat with you on the phone yesterday. I love your cajon accent !
OK the outside wasn’t much to look at, but the crumb, wow, pretty open and lacy. The dense areas at the ends are secondary to my squashing the ends when trying to fit them in the oven. Squashed up against the back of the oven and the door compressing the crumb. The crust is thin and crisp. The crumb has that nice sheen, gelatinized without being gummy or wet. I must do this again but get the shaping better and get some ears.
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My experience was very much the same.
That french flour is very special for baguettes. Your crumb is beautiful!
What lovely crumb. I've been holding off ordering French Flours until I have better control but it is so very tempting.
This time no additives and the recipe done by the book. 500 gr Wheat Montana AP 75% water, it scales out to three 18 inch batons at 290 gr each What I learned today was I need to put more tension in the pre-shape to keep them from stretching so easily. They were weak in the middle and too thin before trying to roll them out. I am going to try rolling an oval and resting them seam down next time. Baked at 480 with steam from above. The new stone is better on the rack a notch higher.
Pleased with the crust and crumb but I need to work on getting back to a uniform shape and figure out why the ends are lifting off the stone so much.
The crumb had a yellowish color that happens now and then, which I think means the carotenoids are still in there and have been not worked out of the dough from too much kneading. Doc will probably want to weigh in on that one so I will just say they tasted good.
Don, what happens with lower hydration?
I'm the water boy. It probably would make handling easier but I tend to error on the wet side. I don't know where that exact place is to get both holes and easy handling but with these amounts of dough it changes with just a few grams of water either way.
Had you been baking the longer batons all along, or is it just with this hydra-monster of a thread that you started? Folks just keep getting better and better. Just the way it is supposed to be. Another outstanding bake and another signature scoring pattern.
I'm now kinda hooked for the moment on the longer baguettes too.
The lacy crumbs in just the past 24 hours have been so inspiring.
I did the shorties for a bit to make loading easier but I found they were too much bread and liked a traditional size better. My previous stone was 17inches but not deep enough to get an even bake with three. My new stone seems to handle three wide better except for the ends curling. I would like to try ficilles next. I thought I saw that they are defined by five scores on 180 gr dough and less than a foot long.
Yes it seems we are headed back to the origins. Like fly fishing much of what we learn is history we haven't read yet. Getting an open crumb with IDY on baguettes seems much easier than SD unless it is a larger loaf then getting an open crumb with IDY seems to be difficult must be one of those E=MC2 things.
Not much of a story here (my specialty). Why did I choose to concentrate on baguettes anyway? Well, part of it was the challenge of figuring these out. But the greater part of it is that I like a higher crust to crumb ratio.
Big boules? Boo, great for crumb, and ya git the husky crust. I can't even think of the last time I made one. I like batards, who doesn't, so that is on my secondary go to list. Not too often but they're there. But ooh la la, dark crunchy crust. baguettes are it for me. And really there's nothing more to the story than that.
Now, with the CB tilt toward "full" sized baguettes, I guess I got a bee in my bonnet, or at least a pebble in my shoe. I'd been shying away from the big boys for all this time because I liked what I did, liked the size and liked what came out of the oven. And I an irrational distrust of side loading no matter how nurturing kendalm had been in his pleas to get me to join the sidewinders' club. Well, I guess it was time, and what do I discover? There's even a bigger crust to crumb ratio on these swords.
I have no illusions that I'll abandon the long batard, but for right now, I'm kinda jazzed about getting to my next bake. And one of the next few will be a Bouabsa, how could I not?
When someone compliments me on a loaf I give them, I will sometimes say "baking is fun!".
I got the commercial size plastic wrap from Costco and it is barely long enough. I think the skinny ones bake up better and have more oven spring. In the normal course of eating these I just slice them crosswise and rarely slice them in half for show. I doubt that I am the only one who smears them with Nutella!
I hope we are still doing this when Kendalm gets his oven up and running so he can show us how it's really done and I look forward to you showing us your Bouabsa. Keep your shirt on please.
extirpated by my dermatologist recently. I'l be sure to upload a photo on my next post.
FTR - staking that claim right now !
Pioneers get the arrows and the settlers get the land.
Beautiful work Don! I will conquer the baguette eventually. I will keep trying, after another Einkorn sourdough batard though because I’ve recently found that Einkorn is delicious! Then back to baguettes.
Return and conquer them. Your getting great crumb consistently and the other part will happen with practice. I never experienced Einkorn but I here it is delicate stuff. Maybe you will show us how it rolls.
Don - I am interested in your observation that the yellowish pigmentation shows up now and then. I assume you are baking with unbleached flour. And that you are hand mixing. And that you did not add anything that would act as an oxidizer (additional ascorbic acid, or fava bean flour). Is that correct?
Doc
Other than whats in Wheat MT AP which I saw somewhere that it is slightly less protein than KAFAP. It's grown and milled just over the hill and it may have something to do with how fresh it is. My other theory is it comes from an autolyse a very short mix and no S&F therefore no oxidation.
Later in the day the yellow bleaches out to white but cut at the moment you can't wait any longer it has a slight yellow color.
Really great loaves. Btw the ends will always lift up. Most baguettes are curved - I wouldn't obsess of reducing the curve ;)
happening anymore. Thanks for the heads up;-)
Has seriously devolved ! So I will confess ... I did think about that particular ailment and wondered if I should tone it down. I guess it was only a matter of time. It had to be said ;)
I know the community bakes are about testing and perfecting technique, but let’s not forget why we learn these tricks in the first place...
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5 baguettes pruned to ‘epi format. Waiting for the friends...
Phil
Very nice Phil. Funny thing last weekend I was thinking that I was going to make one of my baguettes into an epi and then I forgot today. Darn, one of these days. I got into the groove of scoring and it totally slipped my mind.
...epis come out beautifully every time. Can’t say that slashes are as predictable...for me anyway
Of the Gosselin and a perfect use for them. Where is the happy little tire swing?
...in the Sierra Nevada. Not far from Carson Pass.
Nice to see a couple of red wine glasses amongst the others, as the baguettes and cheese demand it.
Cheers,
Gavin
I’ve got the French Flour Blues. For Baguette excellence this French T65 flour will require some work to perfect on my part. But for me, it is well worth the effort. One bite into this ridiculously crunchy crust that is quickly followed up by the incredible softness of the creamy crumb is plenty enough to goad me on... This flour is special.
Baked Bouabsa again. Went with 70% hydration and 2% Fava Beans. I had hoped that the Fava Beans will give adequate strength for a beginner like me to handle it with more ease. I was wrong. The dough was removed from the fridge ~12 hours later to shape, couche, and retard again. Shaping the cold dough was difficult. The dough was entirely too extensible for my present skills. It stretched out way beyond the 22” length that my home oven will allow. So, I decided to cut 1/3 off the length and make a couple of Ficelles. Managed to salvage that. But the shaping was nuttin’ nice. NOW, let’s discuss scoring! Even with a super frigid dough the skins are extremely delicate. In the past with other flours a very low angle (filleting) score produced super results, but that was not to be the case with these babies. Next time the dough will be scored at ~45-60 degrees, a deeper angle. The more shallow angle caused the blade to skip across the surface of the dough on a couple of slashes.
But, I say again. The eating is absolutely exquisite!
Here’s a little lagniappe!
I know most of y’all are to experienced to use “training wheel”, but I need all the help I can get. :-)
The flipping board is laid on the side of the baguettes and used as a reference while scoring.
Danny
I too found that scoring my most recent baguettes made with what I believe is T55 flour was similar. The skin on the cold shaped dough (at the end of the cold retard not part way through) was very very delicate. I still think that the flap of dough fell back down on the scored dough and closed somewhat. I think with this delicate dough made from this flour that I need to make a less parallel to the surface of the dough score at least with the 72% hydration that I made last time. I will certainly lower the hydration and alter my scoring next time and see what difference that might make to the next set. I do have to agree with the flavour and texture comments though, the flavour is clean wheat, the crumb is soft and the crust thin and crisp just what I want from a baguette so it is worthwhile working on the T55 while I still have some left. I am running out and not sure if I can get more anytime soon so hopefully the next set of baguettes will work better.
I know you strive for perfection but to most of us these look pretty darn good and you are consistently putting out great products. There is something about baguettes that makes us all think we can do better. I wish I could taste these. Your neighbors are very lucky people. You should try doing it without retarding the shaped wands to see if scoring is different. Am I the only one scoring with a straight blade instead of a curved lame?
We may be on the same wave length. I just setup this formula in my spreadsheet earlier this morning for my next bake. The hydration was adjusted down to 66% from 76. If need be it can be adjusted up during the mix.
has created a telepathic link and we are all riding the same wave. I was thinking the retarded shaped method may have relaxed the skin too much even though it should be firmer from the chill. It will be interesting to see how it scores. I may try a SD/yeast Bouabsa for bake #6 because I have a lot of catching up to do and to keep this thing going so Kendalm can put down his markers.
Was going about to say they look like ficelles - then I read the post. And still you got great loaves. I should have told you that adding fava really necessary and also that you'd probably notice its gets weaker not stronger. Thing to do is just start lower hydration and work up. Interesting thing to me is that its throwing you for such a curve with the extensibility. Once you get comfortable with the extreme silky qualities I think you'll find that going back to shaping your usual flour is quite frustrating having to wrestle with the dough; I think I'll mix some up tonight and let you know where this lot sits with respect to the average extensibility. Maybe I'll bake some up tomorrow.
I've been keeping it to myself until I have more documentation, but have you considered a very heavy handling of ones of those loaves for a side-by-side comparison? Perhaps in a future bake?
I have been working with a 75% hydration 100% AP sourdough baguette trying for a very open crumb. I have manhandled heavily half the dough on preshape and shape. The crumb on those loaves was more open than the gently handled ones. The first experiment was inconclusive. The second was definitive. The additional handling added structure back to the dough and the loaves were easier to score, as well.
I've been trying hard to resist ordering some fancy flour in. Your pics and description mean that I think I've lost the war. Very very nice.
My best of the bunch last time was the one I stretched and letter folded long ways and then patted it out and it shaped with much better tension and it required force to elongate. It was the crumb in the photo in my last post. The videos of the pro's is always more forceful than what I normally use but I am going to try and replicate that next time.
Jen & Don, I am final proofing 3 now. Believe me, these were not babied. Must be the telepathic thing, because the shaping was completed before I read your post. Geremy told me not to baby the dough, much like what both of you are saying.
The hydration of the T65 was lowered to 66%. It is now much more easy to handle. The sweet spot for this flour is somewhere north of 66%, though. More experimentation necessary...
I've been holding this back for 3 more bakes today but it seems to relate at the moment. I'm working on a sourdough baguette with a very open crumb. As part of that, I've been looking at the handling on shape and preshape of the dough on a higher hydration dough.
Bake 1- A Heavy Handed Accident
This was back during the fava/NY run. I had some scraps that I kneaded together lightly and then formed a baguette. Baked to see what happened.
Bake 2- Intentional
75% hydration with some wheat/rye. One half of the dough was lightly stretched and gently rolled as preshape. Shape essentially was a light stretch of the dough- but it was so extensible it did it itself. The other half was pounded flat, folded over on itself, rolled tightly as preshape. Shape was pounded flat again, rolled tightly while compressing, lengthened by pressing on the dough.
There appears to be some negative effect on the crumb but would need to be repeated to be certain no other factors were involved.
Bake 3
75% Hydration, all all-purpose. Same handling procedure as bake 2. Appears to be a strong correlation between handling and crumb structure.
Between bakes 2 and 3, 2 had a less extensible dough and some negative effect with greater handling. Bake 3 was more extensible and had a definitive benefit from additional handling.
I have 3 more bakes that I plan to do today on 75% hydration dough and will be testing the handling again. I've dabbled a bit at 60% and 68% At this point, I theorize that as the extensibility increases, the amount of handling needed for an open crumb increases, as well.
I don't feel this is confirmed yet. I'll post when I have completed the other 3 bakes.
I'm very open to input and ideas on this line of thought.
Even though the results of your experiment seems to contradict common rationale, it is what it is. It is amazing to watch experienced bakers shape baguettes so agressively.
keep the results of your experimentation coming...
Thanks,
danny
Danny,
This is actually right along with conventional thinking, it just doesn't appear so on the surface. I included links to two videos. I had dismissed them because baguettes seem like their own world. I'm starting to think that it is all the same world just from a different angle. The rules exist but are applied differently.
The videos are lengthy but it shows the entire process.
Effects of Preshaping
Effects of Shaping
Tom Cucuzza of Sourdough Journey (from the videos) heavily references Open Crumb Mastery by Trevor Wilson. I assume the why's and how's are explained in that book. (And I need to stop baking long enough to read it.)
I'm thinking of it like constructing a building. If the building was made with proper support, adding more supports gets in the way and closes it off. If there was little support, adding it actually opens the space up. When we shape/pre-shape, we are essentially deciding what amount of structure is needed for the desired rise. At least...that's what I think today. Haha.
I merely applied a small portion of what was presented in the videos to baguettes and it held true.
Jen
Jen, although extremely long, the pre-shaping video was eye opening. The Sourdough Journey is worthy of a YouTube subscription, IMO. The length of the video served to document the process which is a good thing. It would have been nice if he would have included links in the comments that would enable the viewer to jump to various sections. Tip - to shorten the time use the speed settings to 2X, that way you can see the entire video in half the time.
The meat of the pre-shaping experiment starts HERE.
The results of this experiment is not what any baker would think. It is worth the time to view.
Thanks for posting...
The gist of his experiment with shaping starts HERE.
This guy’s work is very informative. I’m going to invite him to join our forum. We need all the experimental bakers we can get.
Danny
related to yeast versus sourdough. Yeasted bread seems to require and rebound from a more assertive handling than sourdough at least that has been what I have found to be the case but I never really degassed a sourdough loaf intentionally. Maybe I missed it but the guy in the video was talking about crumb but never mentioned volume which seemed to be greater with more shaping.
Was there any noticeable difference in the crust or did both have the same bite. The level of proof looks spot on with the glisten to the crumb.
These were the same dough and so the crust was identical. In each case, they were baked side-by-side.
That is an interesting conjecture. But designing an experiment around it seems prone to error. However you know what you did so you can repeat it. The question is can you do a video or at least some intra-process imagery so we can imagine the dynamics? Then we can look at the crumb pics for confirmation.
Doc,
Effects of Preshaping- Tom Cucuzza
Effects of Final Shaping- Tom Cucuzza
Your point is right on- and why I've been hesitant to share because of it. There are a lot of variables. In this case, I applied the ideas presented in the videos to baguettes directly and they held true. I try a lot of things to give myself an idea of a direction. I need to start planning with an idea of how to present it to others.
Jen
Never have I ever baked so many breads for any other CB before. The challenges of this bread coupled with the progressive success drives me forward. This bake used Hamelman’s Baguette de Tradition, which calls for no retardation. It started around 10AM and came out of the oven mid-afternoon. The hydration was reduced to 66% which was a little low, but french flour is a learning experience for Americans. The flavor was not as good (but still excellent) as the Bouabsa, but the crunch and texture was even better, if you can believe that. Prior to this week, I was thoroughly convinced that bread with this type of bite and chew was completely impossible with a home oven. Thrilled to find out I was dead wrong. Still have lots of work ahead before this flour is dialed in. But the journey will produce lots of great eating...
OH! The higher angle slashing made scoring a good deal easier, although the low hydration should have also affected that. The dough was scored after proofing an hour at room temp.
Love the middle picture. Glad you found the eating pleasure so enjoyable. It's a nice change of pace from the whole grain flavor. I still make an Approachable Loaf every week to have as toast in the morning but for just eating bread alone the white flour baguettes are in a league of their own. What makes them fun to make is the precision and focus required to execute them well.
I finally got around to the BBGA baguettes and will be rolling them up this morning.
Don, you are the perfect candidate for T65 French! I don’t think it is possible to use American flour to bake a loaf with the characteristics of fine french flour.
Geremy sent me an image of his perfect loaf using T65. This takes special skills. He earned his ranking into the “Special Forces” with that one! Miracles are possible. I have a visual goal to pursue.
I am wondering if using all or some portion of American pastry flour might not get us in the ball park.
Looking forward to the BBGA bake. I assume they are the Team USA baguettes.
Wow that looks like baguette perfection to me.
I have a set of baguettes almost done bulk fermentation, still using Abel’s formula with a hybrid of sourdough levain and a tiny % of IDY. Unfortunately I have run out of T55 flour so only about ⅓ of it will be that flour the rest of it will be AP. I was amazed that after 100 slap and fold, 50 mins of time and one coil fold I was able to pull a good windowpane. Our Canadian AP must be pretty high in protein.
The dough will cold retard en bulk until tomorrow morning before work I’ll then pre-shape, shape and bake.
I don't know if they were bred for that, but perhaps so. And the climate perhaps plays a role as well. I understand that European flours tend to run on the other end of the spectrum, but I have no clue why, maybe that is what will grow there.
I just looked up the protein on my AP flour and it is a staggering 13.3%. I may need to buy Canadian pastry flour to try to get a lower protein content closer to 10%.
At these levels I don’t need bread flour, I should just have the AP for my bread and buy pastry/cake flour for other baked good and maybe a blend of the pastry flour with some AP for baguettes.
at some point. In a perfect world we would have ready access to it. I haven't even seen KAF AP in the stores again. I would like to hear more from KD on what makes this particular flour the one to use. I would hate to get hooked on the good stuff and then not be satisfied with anything else.
The Costco near me, for some inexplicable but good reason, suddenly started stocking KA AP in 25 lb. bags. For the first time ever. About US $13. We know that what they stock can be regional and you are on the opposite side of the Great Divide from me. You may wish to check and see whether they are carrying it near you.
I was dumbstruck when I noticed it a month ago and picked up a bag. If it weren't for me already having stockpiled about 150 or more lbs. of various flours recently, I would have grabbed a second bag. Next time there I likely will.
A few problems, but no missteps. The formula is as easy as it gets and I've baked it probably 15 times in the past after I had first figured it out way back. So let's look at the balance sheet.
I was considering dividing and shaping the dough before retard but very quickly abandoned that because there was no way it would be compliant in any way. Into the retarder it went.
I pulled the dough about halfway through retard for shaping before I went to sleep last night. The dough felt typical Bouabsa good in my hands, the pre-shaping was a dream and for the most part rolled out okay - at about 21 inches long. However, and I can't recall this from before, the dough exhibited elasticity and sprung back on the couche to 19 inches where it remained though the bake.
The dough was slightly sticky to final shape, and the shaping was better than last bake but still needs cleanup. Still getting accustomed to rolling out these longer thinner batons.
Pulled from retard about 45 minutes before bake, which is not my standard M.O., and they released from the couche fairly easily. But the top was sticky and adhered to the hand peel, and had to be gently eased off it. I lightly floured the tops of the other two and they released from the hand peel easily.
Scoring was also a surprisingly sticky affair, but with swifter scores became less problematic. Maybe I just forgot what this dough feels like, or I'm unused to scoring dough that had final bench top proof. No problem loading or baking - 480dF - 13 minutes with steam, 10 minutes after rotating and 3 minutes of venting.
I love the dark color and incredible snap of the crust, but it was thicker than anticipated. The scores are disappointing, inconsistent, and tell me that there's more learning (as if learning ever ends) to do on these longer batons than I'm used to.
Crumb is creamy colored and fairly open and delicate and has that classic sweet Bouabsa flavor.
I'm wondering whether the darker vs. thicker crust is a tradeoff. I'm not disappointed in the bake as a whole, but I had hoped for a better experience and not all that happy with the scoring.
The Brooklyn, now Los Angeles, Dodgers had a saying at the end of losing seasons - "wait till next year". Well I won't wait that long before my next bake. That's for sure.
I was halfway though a baguette when I remembered to slice one open for the crumb shot. These are addictive little puppies!
325gx3 baguettes
Alan, the crumb looks great. Also, the signature color is exceptional.
Did you go the full 75% hydration?
What type of flour did you use?
You wrote, “ I'm wondering whether the darker vs. thicker crust is a tradeoff.” Are you saying that the darker the color, the thicker the crust? There seems to be a correlation.
with bassinage. The mix and BF all went smoothly, as usual.
I suppose that the thinnest crust is with the least coloration, the darker and the oven het bakes through to a further depth. So while I love the color, it may well have contributed to the thicker crust. But that snap and crunch! That made it worth it!
thanks, alan
Eveything looks great. Our signatures are written in the score. You should have close up photo of those batons made into a belt to wear around. I love the pattern.
a COVIDiot-proof mask with this pattern...
But I'll need to carry a butter knife around with me in case I run into a pat.
My wife is making and selling fish themed masks so maybe a bread head is next. I still like the idea of a snakeskin belt from a single. Maybe slice the top off and treat it with something to keep the dogs from following you.
Can somebody explain to me the rationale for picking a retard time longer than what it takes for the dough to stabilize at the target temperature? Other than for scheduling the oven.
Doc, I hope we can resolve this question. As you know, most bakers believe that retarding commercially yeasted dough will increase the flavor. Your assertion that it is not so surprises me. I am intent on getting to the bottom of this one.
I sent an email to Lesaffre Yeast (makers of SAF Red) requesting the answer to that question. A phone call may be necessary.j
Called Lesaffre Yeast Company and spoke with Martin. He told me that CY will continue to ferment at 37F and above, although it will be slowed down. Flavor will be enhanced over time during both warm and cold conditions.
If I remember what Andrew at King Arthur Flour told me to check out Bob’s Red Mill site. The information was thorough and very informative.
*** begin Bob’s Red Mill ***
Rough Temperature RecommendationsThe guide below will give you a rough idea of ideal water temperatures for proving your yeast.
Of course, these tentative estimations can be higher or lower depending on the type of yeast you are using, and whether it is active dry yeast, live yeast, or rapid rise yeast. The bottom line is that yeast thrives in warm water, sleep in cold water, and die in hot water. So, like Goldilocks and the Three Bears, it’s important to get the temperatures “just right” for your yeast to thrive and your bread to obtain the best rise and flavors possible.
*** end Bob’s Red Mill ***
For more information concerning Commercial Yeast see THIS LINK.
I believe that he uses a minuscule enough amount of IDY (or perhaps fresh yeast in his bakery) to figure out what the maturation of the dough would be to match his bakery's scheduling requirements. I've been in his lab and there isn't a lot of room in there for leverage. In this case, he likely made a decision as to how best to fit in what he has to in order to meet the mixing/retarding and baking demands. He may have decided to bulk ferment as it takes up less space than having speed racks filled with shaped dough in his retarder.
As I recall, this is his one mixer (that I saw).
of one of his baguettes that you took before it disappeared.
Coil folding in a bowl. I assume the bowl turns a little at the same time. The gentlest kneading machine of them all is what I understand. Somebody needs to make a home version of that thing besides the one attached to my shoulders.
I see his baguette cracks at the shackles too. A man after my own heart.
The starches being broken down into sugar (flavor) and the yeast has something to eat when they wake up. That's how Reinhart explains the Gosselin technique.
I have been wanting to try this recipe posted way back in the beginning on page one detailed here USA baguettes I upped the hydration to 70 to allow for local dry conditions. I scaled them to 290 grams per to keep the same ratio in a 17 or 18 inch 45cm length. I have decided that is a better length for my stone and oven. In trout fishing catching a 20 incher is the line to cross to be considered a trophy. I caught one and liked it but the shorter length just suits me better.
The dough handled fairly well but I am still struggling with the Goldilocks just right amount of tension in the pre-shape. I decide to load these sans parchment and slithered them off the peel one at a time and it took too long to straighten and arrange them. I think the delay caused them not to be steamed quite right. I see a home made super peel in my future.
I keep trying to score more down the center to create that nice pattern but my batons seem to break their shackles and burst out of their shirt like The Hulk when he gets angry. I still like the eggshell thin crust though.
Overall it's a nice recipe and you get a lot of strength immediately from the 40% poolish but that had almost dissipated by shaping time. I added 25 gr of stiff starter to the mix but hard to say what the effect was. The flavor was good, I was happy with the crumb but the crust was a little stronger yet still had a nice crunch.
I enjoyed trying different recipes in this CB but I will probably go back to where I started with the Bouabsa as my preferred baguette recipe.
Don, what is your perfect amount of rise for the Bouabsa BF?
I’ve been doing 30%, but wondering if more might be better.
20% tops but a few small bubbles on top and signs of the yeast being active. I think what happens after they are divided is more important. You want to see some movement again before shaping. I am thinking divide, rest for a bit, pre-shape. Then decide when to shape and how long the proof needs to be.
Don, since your crumb is consistently great, it would be nice if you photo-documented your entire bake. I think others (now and in the future) would benefit and I know I would. Give us the blow by blow so we can duplicate your process and formula exactly.
as written by the author. The only difference using the BBGA USA was that I hand mixed and upped the hydration to slightly above 70%. I follow almost exactly the recipe for the Bouabsa baggies down to the 21 hour retard more or less. I have probably made them a hundred times in the past mostly during my pre sourdough days. The main difference in my approach from what others are doing is the short mix with no slap and folds or significant gluten development and I am using more water to get an open crumb which changes the handling characteristics. I suppose it would be easier to reduce the hydration and work with a more forgivable dough but that only makes the process slightly easier at the risk of a tighter crumb. It is rare for me to have smooth sailing and a dough that isn't difficult to shape in someway and it was so frustrating in the beginning and even now it is. I think that is why most people give up on the idea after a few attempts. Us knuckleheads persevere! My timing of the steps is based on the room temps and fermenting progress on that given day. I don't see my crumb as that much different from what you and others are posting. The main difference I see is in the scoring. For some reason my crust seems tear rather than constrain the oven spring so maybe that is how I get the holes. I was frankly surprised that the crumb was so open the last time with the BBGA USA and I generally don't have a clue as to how it will be until I slice it.
I will try to remember to photograph the stages next time. I am putting the finishing touches on my scrap plywood extra wide super peel that I hope is going to be a game changer for this side loader.
You mentioned that you don’t develop the gluten much. I haven’t been either for the latest sets of bakes. The fact that you don’t highly develop the gluten may be a key to your successfully thin crust, beautiful crumb, and at the same time your dissapointing ears. I have consistently noticed that the gluten “skin” of your loaves appear thin. I think mine is super thin because of the french flour and lack of gluten development. I bet yours is because of your gluten development.
If your scores weren’t opening well, the crumb should be tighter.
I wonder if we need to score thin skinned dough with more of an downward angle. I’ve watched Alan’s bouabsa video and also Martin Philip’s scoring in slo-mo and they are definitely not using a shallow angle on the videos I observed. The thought is - a 45 degree or greater score will leave more dough on the ear side of the dough. And a thick ear may be needed on a thin skin.
What do you think?
I think you’re on to something Dan, I agree with you, but I’ll have to test it out next time I bake baguettes. I didn’t change my angle of scoring this time and kept the same formula for the dough except the change in flour. So again I kept a pretty shallow (almost filleting) score and again I didn’t get much in the way of ears. Now the only time I did get reasonable ears when was second bake of sourdough only baguettes I posted ages ago. They have a thicker skin and scoring them similarly resulted in some ears.
I will have to make sure I score maybe 45-60* next time and keep the same formula except increase the hydration and see how they turn out. I really like the thin crust so don’t want to go back to the sourdough only formulas that have thicker crusts.
been getting on my bread. My wife says the ones on my head are useless. I think my crust looks much thinner than other bakers and the ears are thin like a potato chip. The bloom seems to split at the narrow crust between scores and looks less defined because of that. It might be from a higher hydration or a less strong gluten but I wouldn't want to trade thin crust for robust ears. I use a straight razor and not the curved blade so that may have something to do with it. As a general rule stiffer doughs are scored deeper than softer ones. I would say my angle is about 30 degrees from vertical. After all these bakes and different recipes my style seem set in stone as is most everyone else's.
The crumb you are always able to achieve is so beautiful Don.
It's nice when a plan comes together. Some of my cuts sealed without an ear but that doesn't seem to affect the crumb. I think scaling the weight of the pieces to suit the length desired is something that helped me and that you should consider. 330 for the full length 20 plus incher (55 cm) and adjusted from there to keep in ratio to the length.
I have trouble getting a nice open ear if I don't pay close attention to three things: loaf perimeter growth during oven spring and how fast it increases (influenced by oven temp, convection setting, amount of steam), dough tensile strength (how much tension is required to break it, and dough elasticity (strain at rupture).
If the loaf is too small, it doesn't expand enough to break.
If it is too strong it won't break at all.
If it is too elastic it will stretch without breaking.
The challenge with baguettes (for me) is that at 330g and 20" long it is too small. Over development of the gluten makes it too strong. Proofing too long makes it too elastic (or at least that is my current theory).
So it makes sense to uses a little weaker flour (10-10.5% protein), don't mix too long or fold too many times (stop when you can pull a smooth window pane), and shape very close to oven time or shape and immediately retard then bake directly from the retarder.
Thus I am interested in what should determine retard duration.
At some point as far as flavor and gluten development and the dough just aging out at and becoming more ciabatta like and not capable of holding much of a shape. I am talking about bulk fermentation here and not as shaped sticks. I only see myself doing that and not putting the shaped loaves away for hours. I think the BBGA recipe with the high percentage poolish has a pretty narrow window for optimum results.
If I side load my baguettes tomorrow the max length will be 14 inches, I’ve allotted about 280-290 g per baguette. Maybe I need to make them smaller to achieve slimmer baguettes.
Benny
Benny, maybe consider Ficelles or like Alan, the long batards. He posted this informative image earlier.
Yes I think mine will end up as long batards given the constraints of my set up and the amount of dough I’m retarding.
It will be I guess. Then mine would be called a fat ficelle or gros ficelle by definition. Are you limited by oven size or baking stone length?
Baking steel isn’t long enough to bake baguettes of great length. That being said, the set I have in the oven now I could have made longer than they are. These are definitely more long batard than baguettes. Next time I will use training wheels and use some sort of guide to ensure that I maximize the length for my steel.
This is the first Bouabsa attempt that I'm willing to show. The real first time I read the directions too quickly and did 3 sets of 300 SF and couldn't figure why everyone said it was so easy. There was cursing involved. And the crumb was ummm...best forgotten.
So this time...100 Slap and Folds. Fold and stretched every 20 minutes for an hour, 20 times in container. Retard for 36 hours. Preshape and 45 minute rest, shape and additional rise of 1 hour for 1 loaf, the rest 90+ minutes in the fridge. I don't trust baking more than one at a time right now.
Overall, I'm not unhappy with this. I'm using Morbread so the crumb might be better with KAAP but I'm going through 25ish lbs of flour a week and morbread is a good price point. Next run with KAAP or 00. I've been resisting breaking into it.
My first real ears on a baguette and it was on the last one when I scored faster and lighter. Also I recently realized my lame wasn't bent enough...such a silly little thing but what a big difference right away. The crust is thin and the crumb is light. And they coloured nicely. Nice flavor...but my heart is in getting to the same consistency with sourdough.
Beautiful crumb, your best yet. 36 hours is a long retard but it seems to work well. We are going to change the name of this CB to OCBD which stands of Obsessive Compulsive Baguette Disorder for all of us who can't stop trying to make a better baguette. Getting the same results with SD will be a tall order. You may want to change your moniker to Sisyphus Pants. Rolling a baguette up a hill.
I would admit that 36 hours was just a life thing...got away from me.
I'm beginning to think that Alan and Danny are secretly running a Bates motel for baguette bakers...one you check in, you can never check out.
aren't hiding away and collaborating together? The two of you have been producing such extraordinary crumb on the past few bakes each. This doesn't happen by accident, and even if you aren't quite sure of what it is that you do, keep doing it.
300x3 sets of French Folds! Well, I guess you didn't have to hit the gym that day! However, I bet you are more adept at it now than before.
Really outstanding work and the pieces have quickly fallen in line for you. And you've probably baked about 10-15 times more bread than I have these past three weeks!
Great progress indeed!
I will say it is rather eerie that every question I'm about to ask Benny puts out about an hour later. Quite handy. Thanks Benny!
And many thanks to you. It feels like a smidge of a cheat to go to a higher hydration and all AP flour because it is an entirely different creature. But the allure was too hard to resist.
If we were the Paul Hollywood Baking Show, and the constraints were specific, then going outside the lines is cheating. Anything else is "within the rules". The entire idea of the CB was to try and encourage the baguette-timid crowd as well as some seasoned hands to at least try the dang thang. And we attracted a few who came and went, nothing wrong with that, as they participated. And then there are the folks like you and Benny who we can't seem to get rid of.
The idea was to interest folks in baguettes, not "my" baguettes, so it really doesn't matter what kind. And the more the merrier because it only enriches the overall experience for both the diehards as well as the gawkers and the one-and-done crowd.
Janet Leigh, Jamie Leigh Curtis' mother, said that she couldn't take a shower for years without wigging out. Quick backstory - Hitchcock got wind of the soon-to-be published book Psycho, and sent a "nobody" ( to hide Hitchcock's identity) to offer to buy the rights to the book, which he did for something like $9,000. The author could then publish it, but only after the movie was in circulation for some period of time.
My idea of cheating for myself is more like this...I'm given recipe A. And I really like recipe A but I want a more open crumb. Well sure I can go to proven recipe B that creates an open crumb with a completely different list of ingredients. But my goal is to learn to manipulate the ingredients in recipe A into what I want it to be. Using recipe B doesn't really help me achieve that goal. I'm getting the result without the work.
That said, if I know what the expected result is on recipe B then making it correctly shows me where I'm at in technique overall.
And well...my people need a break from recipe A for a moment.
My pleasure Jen, you must be practicing mind control LOL.
I say go for it and go higher hydration all AP flour, that will be my next set of baguettes, but also hybrid again with both levain and IDY.
Jen, I still can’t believe that you’re a relatively new baker, you’re making the rest of us look bad. There is no way I would have been putting out the quality of baguettes that you are now a year ago myself. So impressive. Really great crumb.
I agree with you, the fast quick scores are definitely the most effective, all except the one in which I gave my left baby finger a good deep gash with this morning.
Again using Abel’s formula, 9% pre-fermented flour of which only 1.1% of the total dough was whole red fife. ⅓ of the flour was T55 (no more left now) and ⅔ was my 13.3% protein all purpose Canadian. IDY was used 0.07% and the hydration was 72% again. Now that I know that my all purpose is really high protein I might increase the hydration next time to 75%.
I fermentolysed the levain, flour, water, yeast and diastatic malt which I increased to 1% in the hopes of getting a better browning of the crust. Salt was added along with some water and mixed thoroughly with 100 slap and folds. The bulk fermentation took under 3 hours at 79ºF and I did two sets of coil folds. The dough was cold retarded en bulk for 21 hours because of scheduling issues. It was divided and pre-shaped into loose rolls, rested 10 mins then shaped into long batards. Here is where I could/should have rolled out longer than I did since once on the steel I noticed that I could have stretched them another 2-3 inches longer since I side loaded them this time. Baked with Silvia towel and cast iron skillet for 13 mins at 500ºF then removed steaming gear turned the oven to 480ºF convection hoping that I would get better browning. Baked a further total 12 mins oven on turning a few times and finally moved off the baking steel onto rack and left for a further 2 mins with the oven off and door ajar.
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I’m really loving the flavour and texture, both of the thin crisp crust and soft crumb with good chew, of this formula. The crumb looks good to me, but I have work to do on getting a more extensible dough that is less elastic. These baguettes shortened from their initial length while in the couche a short time.
Because my all purpose is such high gluten, I‘ll try to increase the hydration to 75% and use far fewer slap and folds to build less gluten. I still need to adjust my scoring I think to get better ears, I did have a couple of ears on these but nothing to write home about.
I’m not sure why the browning of the crust is so uneven, could it be the spritzing of the dough I do after loading them in the oven?
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Benny, the “Crumb Master”!
Killer crumb , Benny. You and MTLoaf are onto something.
I can see another phone call is in order...
Also in the same league is Jen, who gets another gold star for open crumb . Your baggies's crust also looks wonderful. Now just figuring out how to get the ear to do a "lift and take-off".
It wouldn't matter how long you've been baking these, the results make it look like you've been doing this forever.
This CB sure keeps you on your toes, if you want to run with the big dogs.
...and that’s a great thing!
CIP - Continual Improvement Process
First off...smashing crumb! It looks so lovely. That you are able to create the texture with such a high protein flour is remarkable.
As far as the uneven bake, I'm running into the same problem but primarily on the all white flour doughs. Is that a trick of the eye because the color difference of the dough itself? Or a mistake in handling?
Jen, I don’t know about others, but most often I consider the oven for problems with uneven browning. I have seen large air bubbles at the surface that darken prematurely. But most often I’m thinking oven heat.
Are younrotating your loaves at some point during the bake?
I'm baking in a two part oven. I complete the bake in the upper oven with a rotation. I think the problem is the oven- very temperamental in positioning. I can't even bake two baguettes at the same time and expect even browning.
I may shorten the loaves and stop side-loading. Try a rotation front to back.
I think it is very interesting that Benny is running into the same issue at this time, too. Ovens are the chaos factor, it seems.
This time I side loaded, last few times I end loaded. I’m not seeing that much of a difference with the browning for my oven, it isn’t even either way. After the steaming component of the bake I actually rotate them quite a few times, I may have to drop the temperature farther and bake longer to get more even coloring.
One thing I have to thank Doc for is his idea of using crumpled aluminum foil to prevent over baking of the bottom crust. My solution which I used this time is that I stuffed the broiling rack with crumpled aluminum and then placed my baking steel (only 3 mm thickness of carbon steel) on top of the broiling rack. I’ve only had burning one time, but up until this bake, I found that they bottoms were more baked than I would prefer. This time with the addition of the crumpled aluminum in the broiling rack there was no over baking of the bottom crust.
So another issue with my set up figured out. I think I like the top steaming set up and now the baking steel with broiling rack stuffed with aluminum foil.
Benny, How does putting crumpled foil on the broiling rack that is located above the bread help the bottoms from burning?
I may not have explained myself well. But the broiling rack, stuffed with crumpled aluminum is under the baking steel so it is buffering the baking steel from the direct heat of the bottom elements. It has surprisingly made a difference to the
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Thanks everyone for the comments on the crumb. Other than a dense area as seen in the photo above along the wall of the cut baguette, I’m quite pleased with the crumb. I do wonder if I’m putting the baguettes in the couche with too much pressure between them compressing the crumb along the side walls, could that be the cause.
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Compression requires forces from two sides (plus top and bottom) so if it did crush the crumb structure you should find it in both loaves that were in contact (and you don't).
I haven’t cut another baguette yet, I’ve frozen them to reheat tomorrow with dinner. I’ll post a photo of either of the other two once they’re cut if they show any of that compression as well. It was a long shot, but I was trying to figure out why it would have that compressed area.
Was it on the outside of the dough ball before it was divided and wound up on the outside of a loaf? I am thinking about where there might be dough that is a little under-fermented - a cold spot, a spot that got special mistreatment at some point, a spot that got dry or ripped when you divided or rubbed instead of rolled during shaping. It wouldn't take much to produce a small "bruise" in the process.
The only other thing that happened, but of course I cannot recall if it was to that exact baguette was after pre-shaping. I had the three dough rolls sitting a bit to close together, so with relaxation of the dough warming up, two became a bit stuck together then I used the bench scraper to cut them to separate them. However, in doing so I missed the natural line between them and took a sliver of one with it. So that sliver was compressed down to the countertop and added to the other dough. Maybe that is the compressed bit on that baguette?
I think you have found the culprit!
Now I’m not sure. By the way, these baguettes freeze whole super well and crisp up almost to a freshly baked state, we just had a rebaked one with dinner and it was almost as good as yesterday.
Now, here is the crumb showing compression on both sides, this may have been the baguette in the middle of the three perhaps getting compressed from either side. Tomorrow I will cut another to have with dinner and it will be interesting to see if it has this artifact and defect as well.
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If that is the culprit for a minor defect then the fix should be easy the next time to give them more room. I would say scale them down and make them thinner might help in the same way.
I have another batch using the same formula except all AP 13.3% protein flour with 0.25% nutritional yeast added in cold retard now. I didn't do any slap and folds, only used Rubaud after bassinage to add the salt. Increased hydration slightly to 73%. I also only did one coil fold because I got a decent window pane after that coil fold.
I will attempt to get a slimmer profile baguette this time and give each a bit more room in the couche tomorrow.
Are you and Jen using spray on lacquer to get that shine. The crumb is a site to behold. I wonder what would happen if you shaped regular sized batard with that dough besides hitting the top of the oven, forcing the door open and floating away.
Other than my steaming set up as shown in the photo of my oven (silvia towel not shown) I have taken to spritzing extra water on the baguettes just before adding the boiling water to the cast iron skillet and closing the oven door. Perhaps that extra water is making them a bit shiny?
That has that starchy sheen to it from the full fermentation and making a poor joke. I have found that the spritzing of water directly on the crust can cause that splotchy coloring on the crust.
Then it is probably the spritzing of water causing the irregular colouring of the crust. I will avoid that with the next bake and hope that the crust is more evenly browned. Thanks Don.
A narrow (1" to 1-1/4" wide) nylon-bristle paint brush cleans up easily and you can use it to brush water onto the dough surface before you score it. It also removes any flour that the dough picked up from the couche. You have much better control with a brush than with a spray unless you use an air brush and even then I suspect a brush would do a better job because it picks up the loose surface flour and you can rinse it off when you refresh the water on the brush.
Yes that is actually what I do with my hearth breads, but have only done it one with the baguettes. I don’t think I’ll spritz water anymore, I’ll just use my brush that I’m already using to brush off the flour to then brush on some water. Thanks Doc.
Benny - I think this would be an ideal place to use a little nutritional yeast to increase the extensibility as a help with shaping. At 0.25% you are right where the commercial bakers go. It is a tiny amount but you will feel it. And while you might want to cut back on the mixing, keep the coil folds which give you the opportunity to check on the dough strength. Once you get the mixing right you don't really need any folds, though I like to do at least one just to know where I am in the process.
Thanks Doc, Dan suggested the same thing so that might be what I do next time then. I suspect that my next dough will have even more elasticity since it won’t have any of the T55 in it so it would be even more resistant to elongation. I’ll make a note of this so when I mix I add the NY.
Benny,
When I ran my one Bouabsa bake yesterday I found the KA AP flour to also be elastic, pulling in from the rolled out 21 inches to 19 inches as soon as it hit the couche. Yeah, next run I'll take the Doctor's advice and sprinkle in some NY at his prescribed percentage.
The one time I used it recently, I a) didn't like the flavor it imparted, and b) used 2%, which at the time I thought was judicious, but was way way too much.
OK now with the three of you ganging up on me LOL ** strongly suggesting** nutritional yeast I will add 0.25% of it to my next bake. Thanks.
Is it always true that a sourdough loaf has a thick crust relative to the same formula made with commercial yeast? And why is that?
No Proof, but best guess with be the acids from the LAB in the sourdough.
But harder and tougher in the same way that the crumb has more texture and substance. I thought that somewhere in this CB you stated that the yeast population was greater with CY and better able to penetrate all of the flour. I just accept it as fact but it would be nice to know the definitive reason.
I would guess that the acid effects on tightening the gluten network might result in thicker/tougher crust and CY breads wouldn't have the acid since it doesn't have the LAB.
but had to get it out after a few questionable bakes. My mother-in-law keeps harping on us "I want some of Alan's bread, I want some of Alan's bread". Since she's 92 and 1200 miles north, my wife decided that we should mail it to her against my warnings that it would likely go bad before arrival. And I ain't paying to send a >2 lb. bread overnight express! We decided to do a trial run to my brother-in-law in NJ.
Rye levain with caraway seeds inside and out @73.5% hydration. The little guy is for us here...
1200g x 1, 300g x 1
Both of those are gorgeous Alan, very nice.
Gorgeous.
Hey, you sly dog. Did you score the batard with opposing angles?
My head is spinning with possibilities...
just as I mentioned in the text msg, I score it the same as I do a baguette. As I do right here...
https://youtu.be/TGF3ApIXn6U?t=85
Who uses rice flour or a mixture of rice flour and wheat flour to keep the dough from sticking to the couche? I just ran out of rice flour and I am thinking about using tapioca starch mixed with bread flour as a substitute for the rice flour/wheat flour blend. Does anybody have any experience with that combination?
For the couche I used rice flour alone once and it work really well. I’ve since switched to flour alone and it too is working well, but then again, the baguettes are in the couche for a very short period of time since I shape after cold retard is complete.
I've never used rice flour.
Thanks for joining our gang. We invite you to join in on our current Community Bake. We are working to perfect our baguettes. See the link below, if you are interested. The OP will explain the concept.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64622/community-bake-baguettes-alfanso
I really enjoy your comparative YouTube experiments! I am working my way through them...
Danny
Thank you. I reposted again with better formatting and the photo. Just figuring out the editor.
This new video series just came out today. It's one of my more interesting ones.
Welcome to the TFL forums Tom and to our Community Bake for Baguettes specifically. I’ve been following your YouTube videos but cannot keep up with all the videos you have put out in a seemingly short time. The ones that I have watched have all been extremely well done and informative. I love the experiment types where you illustrate your findings in your baking experiments like the one you outline above. I look forward to your posts here and hope to continue to learn from you as I have learned from so many other great bakers here and elsewhere on the internet.
Benny
@Tom _ Your inclination toward an Edisonian approach to sourdough is greatly admired and highly respected. Looking forward to more enlightnment from your very well designed and exquisitely executed experiments.
Doc
Welcome aboard Tom!
It is exciting to see you here. I need to catch up on your most recent experiments. It is well-timed in regards to our community bake.
Thanks for sharing your experiments.
Jen
Hello everyone.
DayAyo invited me to join your group.
I participate in various Sourdough groups on social media and I have YouTube channel, The Sourdough Journey, where I have created a number of experiment-based sourdough baking videos. Here is my most recent video, a 4-part series looking at the impact of bulk fermentation handling techniques on open crumb. My videos are long-format, observational videos that include every step of the process.
A Five-Loaf Experiment – Impact of Bulk Fermentation on Open Crumb (Photo is at the bottom).
I’m continuing my multiple-loaf experiments. This one was interesting.
I made 5 loaves with different handling techniques in bulk fermentation, and baked them with no pre-shaping and no final shaping to isolate the impact of different handling techniques.
The 5 loaves were (from left to right):
Loaf 1: No Knead (no handling after initial mix)
Loaf 2: 4 Stretch and Folds
Loaf 3: 8 Stretch and Folds
Loaf 4: 4 Coil Folds
Loaf 5: 5 Coil Folds and 1 Lamination (between coil folds 2 and 3)
All 5 loaves were from the same batch of dough. I followed the Tartine Basic Country Loaf recipe for all (78% hydration). The loaf weight, bulk fermentation time, temperature and baking times were all identical. After bulk fermentation, all of the loaves went into loaf pans (with no preshaping and no final shaping) for overnight cold retard. They were baked in a dutch oven the next morning. Note: I also counted the number of “layers” created in each loaf through the handling methods and it is indicated below. Also note: These are small loaves (250g flour weight) so the "big holes" are smaller than they appear here as compared to the crumb view of a standard full-sized loaf.
Assessment of the 5 Loaves:
Loaf 1 (Zero layers): This loaf shows the work of the yeast alone, with no human hands after mixing. It creates a fairly nice, regular crumb but does not create much height in the dough.
Loaf 2 (16 layers): This is the classic “Tartine” loaf which creates a somewhat open irregular crumb. Again, not much height due to fairly light handling. This loaf needs some help in preshaping and final shaping to build the height.
Loaf 3 (32 layers): This is essentially a “heavy handled” Tartine loaf with 8 stretch and folds continuing late in the process (3.5 hours into bulk). The crumb is more dense due to more handling, especially later into bulk. The late handling had more impact than the number of folds, in my opinion.
Loaf 4 (32 layers): The four coil folds created much more height and structure to the dough. The crumb is somewhat more open but this appears to be added air from the coil folding.
Loaf 5 (48 layers): The 5 coil folds plus lamination created a nicely shaped loaf – very good height and symmetry with no preshaping and no final shaping. Very similar to loaf #4. It is also showing some added air bubbles in the crumb from the coil folds/lamination.
Findings:
This experiment also illustrates the bulk fermentation component of what I call “The Structure Chain.” The final crumb of the loaf is the combination of bulk fermentation + preshaping + final shaping. Very loose dough coming out of bulk fermentation (e.g., Loaf 1 and 2) needs more pre and final shaping. Very strong dough coming out of bulk fermentation (Loaves 4 and 5) can work with much looser pre-shaping and final shaping (in fact, you could probably skip pre-shaping in these two loaves). Lastly, with Loaf 3, when you create a dense crumb in bulk fermentation, nothing you do in preshaping and final shaping can re-open a dense crumb.
I recorded this entire process in a very long, 4-part video series if you are interested. Part 4 is a good summary, but if you really want to learn the details, every step is included in parts 1-3. Part 1 also includes a good overview and tutorial of the four methods for those who are not familiar with these methods. It also demonstrates how I counted the “layers” in each of the methods.
Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMNnFRtsaxxz0qmcEkSqPH6gLVRRswKjj
Dan is perhaps the most tenacious, or at least tied for the most tenacious, of our intrepid TFL crew. At this moment in time he has graciously hosted about a dozen of these Community Bakes over the past three years. The purpose of the bakes is to participate in some form or other with the focus purely on the specific bake, and its ofttimes stepchildren. And Dan does this by openly welcoming the experienced and enticing the "timid"to participate in that unique focus.
This iteration focuses on my take of a Jeffrey Hamelman formula designed as baguettes as a starting point. And which has grown exponentially with both knowledge and participation by the dwindling few at this point. Or, in the case of prior Community Bakes, any other individually targeted and focused dough and the eventual outcome, sidetracks well within the bounds of the specific topic.
The anticipation and expectation is that all participants will become part of the Community Bake by actually attempting one or more of the bakes in question, or to be an observing curious sort who participates by learning and asking questions. We are not interested in competition here, again the focus of the comments posted are virtually all in reference to the specific Community Bake or something acutely associated. To date, we have had something like 700 comments, all on this specific bake, and rarely has anyone strayed much off the general "guidelines".
TFL has ample space for folks who wish to post whatever it is that is of curiosity and/or interest to them, whether it is to display our prized bakes, our failures in the hopes of further participation and correction in regards to the failures, and also to ask questions and proffer tips and help to those in "need". That is the overall thrust of the general TFL forums.
The thrust of the Community Bake is to focus on the topic at hand. Again, there is ample room on TFL for anyone and everyone to participate in any manner they so choose, and hopefully they do. as long as the topic is baking and in these forums, almost exclusively bread.
We, I can say we, as I am co-hosting the forum with Dan, although by every means a willing body to those whose input has come to represent co-"ownership" while sharing in our endeavor, would love to have your input and participation within the scope of the Community Bake. If you wish to comment, supplement, add to, correct and especially submit your baguette bakes, we would love to entertain your input. And from what we have gathered from your in depth videos, there is much to learn from you.
Consider posting your baguettes here. I, and I'm certain Dan also, look forward to your further participation in this or any upcoming Community Bake where we can all focus on the singular topic at hand.
Welcome aboard TFL island. alan
I had some left over levain today so I am making another batch of baguettes, roughly based on the Boubasa formula (less grain in final dough because of AP levain, and spelt not wholewheat) I plan to room temperature bulk ferment . There has been much discussion here on shaping dough part way through the retard. So if I retard for a couple of hours (? how many - 2-3 perhaps) then leave 12 hours plus in fridge before scoring and baking cold.
is that a sensible plan?
Leslie
I retarded a 1600g batch of dough today from a starting temp of 80°F down to 40°F in 5 hrs at 38°F refrigerator temperature. But there is a pretty big circulating blower in there to keep the air moving. The dough was about 2" thick and it took all of that time to get there. Thinner will go faster.
at just under 900 g (just 3 small baggies) and all I have is home refrigerator. I am thinking of retarding in about 3 hours (it will be 7 pm here) then shaping about 10 pm and retarding until 10 or 11 am tomorrow. or iS it better. to retard earlier, shape and bench proof in the morning (as per instructions). the discussion here has tweaked my interest in an alternative way. dough temp is about 70°f atm. BF & s and f will take another 1.5-2 hours.
I have 2 other breads also under way that I will shape & retard as usual this evening and bake tomorrow.
Leslie
Retard until the dough handling qualities match your skill and capability. If you can do that before you go to bed that is fine, otherwise just wait. Once the dough gets to ~40°F things are moving pretty slow and mañana will be just fine. Tom Cucuzza's point that the earlier in the BF cycle you stop handling the dough, the better the crumb looks (in terms of openness). If you achieve the right amount ot dough strenghening during folding as part of BF, then preshaping and final shaping can do more harm than good.
There may be an argument in there that suggests that we should do a proper BF and immediately shape then let final proof complete the fermentation for us (isn't that the classic way bread has been made forever? So maybe there is a good reason for it.) In that context it may be appropriate to ask when in the chilling interval you should shape. I have spent the last few cycles gradually increasing BF time and PFF while slowly reducing the protein content of the flour by mixing AP w/ high gluten flour. And in the process I am comparing long retard times (overnight) with just enough time to get the dough cold. So far everything is getting better except that long retard only affects the flavor and not the crumb at all (these are all sourdough baguettes).
I am also sure that Jen will drop some of her wisdom in here when she thinks she has it under control.
in an hour or so and maybe I will shape 1 then and 1 at bedtime and 5he ladt one in the morning and see if there is a difference. you have given me more food for thought.
thank you, always more to learn
Leslie
Keep good records in your lab book :-) You need to capture all of the manipulations from the time flour hits water. There is a lot of research that has been done to quantify the strain energy that is required to develop the gluten. It shows up as heat during a high intensity mix, but is not well measured for folding. And the quality of the gluten has an impact as does the absolute dough temperature. And if you add any reducing agents (like nutritional yeast or L-cysteine) then you don't need as much energy but I have no idea how to calibrate how much less. Generally your hands will tell you. Coil folds are a gentle way to introduce strain without a lot of stress so they are not as effective as stretch and fold or slap and fold or French folds.
Once your dough is cold I don't expect much change in handling properties or much difference in crumb if you don't warm it up before you bake. If you let it warm up before you bake it then there will be some additional yeast activity as well as some of the dissolved CO2 will come out of solution and look like fermentation (though it is just the result of fermentation that happened during the cool down when there was no increase in volume because the CO2 was absorbed by the liquid phase of the dough rather than staying as a gas and serving to further inflate the alveoli).
but I will post the pictures.
From right to left:
Shaped and then retarded 15 hours. Very extensible, hard to shape. it had puddled a bit by bed time so I pushed it together again in couche
Middle baggie: Shaped after 3 hours retard then retarded 12 hours. better to shape, held shape better
Left hand baggie: made it a bit shorter. It was very easy to shape.
All were about 285 g dough. I removed from fridge when I turned oven on to heat so they sat for an hour at room temperature of about 21 degrees C. Scoring was a challenge because they had softened and puffed up. I put a pizza stone above and one below the baking shelf, with lava rocks for steam for first 10 minutes at about 230 deg C which is about as hot as the oven goes even though it was set for 260 deg C. Another 10 minutes bake without steam and then a another 3 minutes as they hadn't browned up enough.
Crumb shot:
The best crumb was the 3rd baggie shaped after 15 hours retard (top left) and the worst was the 2nd one (top right) I think. This was using Boubasa formula slightly modified.
The previous bake as per CB start was by far a much easier bake than this one. I will own up to being disappointed and frustrated. I don't get through enough bread to bake so often. Still glad to have had another go though.
Leslie
Leslie, I hope my oven never breaks. Baking with a new oven looks like a real challenge. It is amazing how the crumb differs from bread to bread. Baguettes are unforgiving. I dare say if we can learn to perfect (within reason) baguettes, that all other breads will become more easy. You can’t cheat a baguette...
Hope all is well with you.
I saw your FB pictures of Rene’.
Danny
I think I will stick with batards for now though. I am amazed at what you guys are achieving, such good stuff and great photos.
thanks Danny,
Leslie
Doc, we should all use POO at the start of our posts. POO= personal opinion only. A rather fitting acronym for opinions.
Back to dough handling. I'm all giddy over this line of thinking. This was my super secret thought process but I was trying to flesh it out before I spoke up.
All in all, what we are talking about is really a Bouabsa-like handling. We know that that handling creates an extremely open crumb. What we have to figure the correct timing to account for SD development for awesome oven spring.
Essentially, we have a high hydration dough that has some manual gluten development and all handling completed early in the BF.
For sourdough, my current unproven theory is the next step depends on when the dough is shaped. It needs a decent BF to 30% or so overall. If the dough is going into retard as a single mass, it would go in much earlier because the BF is going to continue for a while as it cools. If the dough is being shaped first the dough is going to cool faster. The BF would be longer, shaped and into retard.
I have been trying to replicate the Bouabsa handling on a high hydration SD. I made one batch with AP starter and one with a mix of AP and wheat and rye. I didn't take into account the time to cool a doubled batch and it went too far in BF. The crumb was open but not quite right. I'll post it as a bake.
As for flavor, I baked another Tartine Country Loaf mutation with all AP. After a 48 hour retard, it was pretty smashing. I'm baking one tomorrow at 7 days old. Excited to see what happens flavor-wise. One additional factor to influence crumb in retard in the home environment could be how controlled the retard is. I have 2 fridges. One is seldom opened and if dough goes into it, it cools fast and stops rising. My main fridge is opened frequently and dough grows and grows and grows.
I haven't made dough in a couple of days- itching to get back to it now.
Jen - I am all ears (no pun intended) but looking to deconstruct the process into orthogal operations to the extent possible. With sourdough we use low temperatures to stiffen a batch of dough and to slow the yeast and give the LAB a relative advantage so that they can continue to make acid while the yeast is just barely awake.
There is another way to perhaps get acidity without spending the time in the retarder (unless you need a fairly stiff dough for ease of handling). That is to use a very long and very wet levain build to get both a higher LAB numerical density (which increases the rate of acid production late in the process) and more early acid in the levain. The high hydration of the levain dilutes the acid (but does not impact the pH much) so that the LAB can replicate longer (they are sensitive to both pH and TTA), and will continue to produce acid for a long time after they stop replicating (so long as there is still sugar for them to consume) at around pH=3.8 or a little lower. My tests show that the TTA of a levain continues to climb fairly linearly until the LAB run out of food while pH very slowly slides down toward 3.6.
So describe how you want to reorganize Bouabsa to run it as a sourdough baguette process. What is going on at each stage and how do we know we are done or making progress and when do we advance to the next step/stage. What can we control and what are the knobs and switches that we can adjust? Can we separate what we are trying to accomplish so that we can control each of the endpoints independently (though I doubt we will be that lucky even with good design).
Over to you!
all in a dream
The loading had begun.
Flying Mother Nature's golden seed to a new home in the sun.
with apologies to After the Gold Rush by Neil Young
The Super Peel doesn't seem to be available right now and it wasn't wide enough for side loading baguettes anyway so I made my own out of scrap 3/8" plywood and canvas. I hope it works like I imagined. It is 19" wide and fairly easy to make.If it works out I may get a nicer piece of lumber and do it proper.
The Super Duper Peel
Nice, Don! Do you think it will be light enough to handle once it is loaded with dough?
I like your routed edges and design. It shows pride in your work...
I don't think it will be a problem for three baggies. This is the prototype for now it may require a nicer smoother piece of plywood with a slick finish but it seems fine with the dry runs I have been doing adjusting the belt tension. I was a cabinet maker in early adulthood so the next version will be a little more refined. It might be possible with 1/4" ply but that could bind the conveyor belt on the edges.
And the way that bakery loaders work.
Don't let it bring you down, it's only baguettes burning...
I like the central handle for strength (which could be reinforced if needed) and the fabric tracks split to left and right. Easy enough to scale up to any width and length you need. You could probably put an aluminum roller at the business end with at least bushings on the ends to allow it to spin (and small bearings if you wanted to go to the work.)
Amazon currently shows it in stock
I own a custom sized Super Peel that was made to the same size as my smaller stone when the builder just started out. I totally agree with you about the split canvas (on bottom only) with a handle.
The weight of the dough that is loaded in the oven is a consideration where friction is concerned. If I were to build one to fit my larger stone, I would use 1/4” plywood with 1/2 inch dowel running the full length on the front and also on the back ((stopped at the rear handle). The dowel would be machined on the table saw or router with a 1/4” groove and glued to the plywood to round the edges in order to reduce the friction point. The dowel would be highly polished and possibly waxed. I think that would make the canvas slid with more ease.
But, the LOADING BOARD is working flawlessly for all side loadings so far. The push stick makes sure the dough falls perfectly straight on the stone.
It worked fine as is. There was some friction but not enough to disrupt loading. The 3/8" is the right thickness and the weight is not an issue. The leading edge is nice and helps push the batons into exact location while straightening them. and does not hinder movement. The resistance comes from the back groove and the plywood which would be helped by having a slick surface or less tension on the belt. Otherwise fine as is and the baggies are blooming now in oven.
It is said, “practice makes perfect”. But how much practice? This is the 17th bake and I still have a long row to hoe.
...but the harder I work to achieve something, the more I appreciate it when I do.
This bake used T65 @ 72.5% hydration and was very developed via mixing and 300 slap & folds and a couple of S&F. This flour will not accept a lot of water. It was pre-shaped cold, rested and then shaped. They proofed in the couche for about 30 minutes. Scoring was nigh on impossible, similar to trying to score a ballon that was filled with Vaseline. BUT, no matter how they bake up they crispy, crunchy, and crumb texture never disappoint.
The theme of this bake
Sometimes chicken, sometimes feathers... We said, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
The crumb is showing improvements. I tested my 6 year old CY and discovered it was weak, so I upped the percentage from 0.16% to 0.24%. A new pound is on order.
Danny
Fantastic crumb Dan, well done.
Benny
Benny, may have been the slight extra amount of yeast and/or the fact that the dough was fermented a little more.
The dough was barely pre-shaped with the slightest rounding and left to rest. It was then shaped rather gently. Not sure what caused the crumb, though.
and must be a little like Christmas morning cutting them open after the look of the crust. I've recently found that there's a fine dance between too much or too little tension to apply to the dough as it is being shaped. And as with so many other things, perhaps it is the old "getting to know the specific dough" circumstance, which ones benefit from a tighter shaping and which from a loose shaping.
The lack of coloration is a surprise sine your crusts have been coming out heavenly for a while now.
Alan, they were purposely baked up lighter. It’s actually my preference.
I wonder if a mixture of American pastry flour and all purpose flour mix wouldn’t produce similar results as the more expensive french flour.
I was thinking about that myself since I ran out of T55. Another benefit of getting the pastry flour is that my pie crusts should be more tender than before. Maybe when I run low on the AP I might replace it with pastry flour and then use a blend of bread flour and pastry flour. My bread flour also has the same 13.3% protein that the AP has.
Other than guess as to the final protein percentage of your flour mix, try using Pearson's Square. The example in the link is for using VWG to bump up the protein percentage, but can be used for any flour mix.
The Pearson's Square is used to calculate mixed feed for farm animals, but can be used to accurately calculate mixes of flour when you want to increase or decrease the amount of gluten/protein in the flour.
I watched a non-bread related video yesterday (gasp) that basically said when you start to learn, one danger is thinking you know everything. Bread never gives us that opportunity. It constantly keeps us in check and reminds us how much we don't know.
One thing I find of interest is the formation of the open crumb. One loaf has randomized rounded pockets. The other is oval and run perpendicular to the length. You may not recall but did that loaf require more manipulation to get into shape?
I did take my hand and gently pull one of the doughs in oder to stretch it out longer. Maybe that’s it.
I like the elongated crumb. It may become a technique for me :-)
And how long before baking? The one with the round cells looks like it fermented a fair amount after shaping and the one with the extended cell structure had to have been elongated late enough that the alveoli did not have time to get sperical before they were set by the heat of the oven (since oven spring does not stretch the dough axially).
Doc, these were shaped (without pre-shaping) at the end of retardation. They were proofed on the couche for approximately 20 minutes, then slashed and baked.
I do remember using both hands to pull apart 1 or 2 of the doughs because they were shrinking back and I wanted more length.
I like the elongated crumb. Wished it could be consistently duplicated. Tom Cucuzza and his YouTube channel is causing me to think differently about how the crumb is formed. I plan to work my way through his entire YouTube channel.
when I shape flabby dough. Feels like there are a bunch of chopsticks inside, rubbing against each other when it rolls out.
The easiest to shape dough for me by far is Alan’s version of Pain au Levain. It is also the best to score, IMO.
I really don’t like shaping a baguette dough that is airy (puffy). Baguettes are distinctly different from your basic sourdough. The skillset is very unique.
That's a blue ribbon. It may be that the higher hydration is prone to bake a less defined top with less of an ear but more oven spring. Alan is right about the Joie de mie when you filet one out like that. The eating quality is hard to beat on the light and crispy ones. Score quickly on the soft ones is what sometimes works for me with my left hand following behind out of cutting range holding the dough.
As I read over my Bake #17, “ It was pre-shaped cold, rested and then shaped. They proofed in the couche for about 30 minutes. Scoring was nigh on impossible, similar to trying to score a ballon that was filled with Vaseline.”
Not sure that wet T65 will score warm, at least not by me. So, it may be wise to proof the dough 30-60 minutes after shaping and then return to the retarder to allow the dough to set up some.
I have been doing this as well, that is, after final shaping and in the couche, they go back into the fridge until the oven finishes fully coming to temperature. I’m not sure I’ve tried scoring these at room temperature, they are challenging enough cool let alone even softer at room temperature.
Baguette au Levain - same formula (Abel) with the following changes, NY 0.25%, diastatic malt 0.5%, 73% hydration, all AP flour 13.3% protein. No slap and folds used, Rubaud used when adding salt and additional 15 g of water. BF 80ºF about 2 hours 15 mins with only one coil fold. Cold retard en bulk.
21 hours later preheated oven 500ºF, this time aluminum stuffed broiling rack with baking steel on second lowest rack, silvia towel on oven floor and cast iron skillet on top rack. Pre-shaped loosely in a roll, bench rested 10-15 mins. Then shaped on Silpat. I believe the NY helped with extensibility as they were easier to stretch than expected, but I think going to 75% hydration next time might also help a bit.
When placed in the couche, I didn’t flour the dough sufficiently on the exposed part of the dough so when I flipped the first one out it stuck badly to the transfer board, damaging it when trying to remove it from the board. Of course I floured the remaining two immediately to prevent this from happening to them.
I scored this at about a 45* angle and tried to score more deeply. I think I have a bit more of an ear in a few places and think that this scoring is the way to go rather than so parallel to the dough surface. The browning took a long time, after the steaming of 13 mins baking at 500ºF they took an additional 19 mins to fully brown. I might go back up to 1% diastatic malt next time. I still need to work on my shaping.
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Benny, these look pretty darned good. I'd be happy to find out that the blade angle was really the culprit and now the savior. And so would you! Consistently good scoring. There's a boatload of top notch baguettes out there where the ear raises no further than yours. If that is your goal, there is some still some work to do, but it would be anything but heartbreaking if this were to be your signature result and look going forward.
The shaping on these looks really good, with the baguette on the right being the clear blue ribbon winner.
At 32 total minutes for a full bake @500dF, something seems fishy. I "never" bake that high, almost always at 460-480 and the longest I think my dough is in the oven for a long batard up to ~450g is something like 26 minutes with a followup of 2-3 minutes of oven venting usually with the oven off. And the outcome is always darker than your bake here. It isn't whether you like the darker bake or not, but why would you get such different coloration at the higher temp and longer bake with essentially a similar dough? However, consistent coloration throughout the batons with just a hair darker shade on the tapering ends is worth writing home about.
Whatever the crumb looks like, and I'll go with your recent open crumb successes, this bake certainly looks to be another step in the right direction.
alan
I am still having challenges of having enough flour without too much or too little on the silpat for the ideal friction for rolling out. Next time I think I will go back to shaping and rolling directly on the countertop, I'm not sure that the silpat is improving my shaping so will need to switch back to compare.
One thing I didn't do was spritz with water, but I then also forgot to brush on some water with my pastry brush after brushing off the excess flour, have to remember to do that next time. I don't think moving the baking rack up a spot was helpful for oven spring, as these had a bit less spring in them and the bottoms aren't quite as well baked as before this may have also affected the overall browning I'm not sure. Also I didn't switch to convection after taking the steaming stuff out, which also may have affected browning. I'll go back to the set up as I photographed above as I think that was better. Amazing that after this many bakes I'm still working out the best set up to bake!
I hope that the crumb is good again, that would be a bonus, I didn't crowd them as tightly in the couche this time so they had more room between each other so we'll see if that reduces the tightness of the crumb along the side walls.
I'm going to focus less on ears and try to get more consistent shaping, but I will score about the same again at about a 45* angle and try to get a bit more depth, my scores may still be too superficial. Getting back to the old set up may increase the oven spring and help the ears next time anyhow.
Thanks for your comments Alan, they are always helpful.
The crumb from the last set that had some T55 flour in them (33%) was more successful than these. I wonder if I had them on the lower rack if they would have sprung better and had better crumb. The bottoms weren’t nearly as browned on these leading me to think that they didn’t get that initial burst of extreme heat. I had the silvia towel positioned immediately below the broiling rack set up and perhaps that reduced the temperature somewhat being constantly steamed. I guess I’ll have a better idea after another bake, although, I will also be onto a new flour as I found some 12% AP flour yesterday that I’ll try out.
The flavour of these is alright, not as good as the T55 or even the T55 blended with AP. They definitely had more chew and were slightly less crispy, some of this might have been related to the bake.
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They made decent sandwiches for dinner though. Roasted some chicken thighs and made some mayo.
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My neighbor s an avid cake baker, so I used some of her Gold Metal AP flour. This week a Famag was delivered, so I am adjusting to a new machine. This was a good test (blind), because I forgot I was using GM AP. Machine mixed for ~10 minutes, but the dough didn’t seem strong enough. 100 slap and folds were performed and the dough gained good strength. Shaped after BF, couched, and retarded overnight. In hind sight, it would have benefited the crumb to allow the dough to proof a little on the counter.
It was a great test because it was virtually a blind bake. Remember, I thought this was French T65. It could be justified that the crumb was tight because the final proof was omitted, but the flavor was completely off. I couldn’t imagine how the T65 all of a sudden taste so bad. It was not a good flavor at all. Don’t drink champagne if all you can afford is kool aid :-)
Bottom Line -
Gold Metal flour is not by bag.
Despite that you now have incredible ears!!! What is your new secret to these new fangled amazing ears Dan? My hearing impaired (no offense intended) baguettes want to know.
IMO, the oven setup has a lot to do with ears. Others things are also important but none more important that the oven setup.
I will go back to my last oven setup, the one today led to less than stellar oven spring and probably compromised the chance of ears and probably the crumb which I’ll find out about at dinner time.
Defaming my preferred Gold Medal AP flour won't make you any friends at Chez Moi. Until I was able to start buying KA AP at basically the same price, G.M. was my standard go-to brand. I still use their Bread Flour for a slightly higher protein kick than the KA AP.
Your crust looks just fantastic, and I see that you're now taking alfanso-like profile photos too!
Don't discount the use of the new (congrats) mixer. and just like figuring out how to use a new oven, figuring out how to best employ the mixer is another skill to learn. If you can determine the RPMs and correlate that to what, for instance, Mr. Hamelman states, that should be a good start. But unless you figured it out and/or your mixer only has 1 speed, 10 minutes seems too long. Or perhaps the amount of dough in the mixer is insufficient for the minimal quantity.
A typical Hamelman mix seems to be 3 min on 1st, 3-3.5 on 2nd. The Famag IM-8 from Pleasant Hills, runs at 80 RPM on 1st, and 240 RPM on 2nd.
And a point you made to me a while ago correlates to my mantra. You said something like "we aren't getting any younger so why no splurge on the things we want". Mine, for the past several years, has been that I spent my entire life saving for a rainy day. Well, that rainy day has arrived.
Unfortunately, Covid is keeping me prisoner for the past few months and foreseeable future.
I knew my take on Gold Metal would bring you out :-) Taste is a subjective thing, but for me (after eating French flour) there is a very clear winner for baguettes that stands high above all others.
Years ago I told my wife the exact same thing. “We’ve lived a conservative life style saving up for a rainy day. Look around Patsy, it’s pouring down.” LOL
As far as the glamour shots, I had to copy the master...
Changes from run #1. Add 0.25% NY., baked directly out of retard. That's it! Still using all KA AP flour.
The NY was mixed it in with the flours, but should have been sprinkled directly into the water for better absorption. A little better shaping although still some work to do. For the long batard size, the shaping of this dough is simpler and more consistent than this is. Scoring has improved, but still needs to find some consistency.
I was able to roll these out with less elastic properties than the first run which was without the NY. Still shrunk back 1 inch. My hand peel just happens to be a hair under 22" in length, so it makes for a good guide when rolling out the baguettes. And just big enough to move the dough from couche to oven peel.
Overall I'm pleased with this bake, which has a good crumb, and those scores that did work fit into the "signature" alfanso scoring pattern. To be continued, but first I'll bake something else.
Bassinage on final mix, 200 French Folds with ~5 min rest halfway through. 3 Letter Folds at 20,40,60 min. and then into retard. Shaped at about the mid-way point for ~20 hour retard. Baked directly from retard, no warmup, oven to 480dF, 13 min with steam, rotated and 10 min more, 2 min vent.
325g x 3 Baguettes
Alan, they look so..., French! There’s something nice looking about the longer baguettes.
You wrote, “ Shaped at about the mid-way point for ~2 hour retard.” Did you only retard 2 hours in total. If that is the case the dough was only allowed to ferment at RT for about 2 hours total, starting from when the levain was mixed it. That’s amazing and such a nice crumb.
NOTE - your oven really browns well.
No, not 2 hours. There is a trailing zero to the total retard time. Corrected to 20 hours. Good catch.
Yes the longer shaping gives the bread a more "elegant" look.
thanks, alan
I'm now steering clear of the close-in overhead incandescent bulb which almost always imparts that reddish tone. And now using the regular countertop for photos. This gives the bread a more realistic coloration.
And since this bake is at 480 vs. a lot of you folks running 500 or higher the question might be why do I get a darker brown? The oven has convection mode, which I still have never used for anything, but it may well tie back to the baking deck radiating wicked heat the whole time. I also reset the oven temp after I open the oven door to ensure that it fires back up to the desired temp. I do notice that the convection fan automatically turns on to help get the temp back up, and then shuts off when it reaches temp.
Alan - I like your idea to dissolve the NY in some liquid before incorporation rather than depending on mixing to do the dispersion, which it may not. Did you find some guidance on that or you just observing that you had identifiable chunks of NY in the dough after mixing?
I found that the 0.25% I used in my most recent batch did not have as much effectiveness as it had earlier and I wondered why. Perhaps this is a piece of the puzzle.
When I mixed all of the flours separately for the autolyse with IDY included, as per original instruction (as I recall), I noticed the small now browned bits of NY in the dough that had not been broken down. I figured that it might just be better to try and saturate them alone with the water prior to adding the remainder of the dry ingredients. We'll know better after I/we try it next time.
The 0.25% did not give the dough any significant extensibility, but just enough that the shaped baguettes only pulled back an inch from shaped length. The other day without the NY it was 2 inches, and was a bit of a work to roll them out to 21 inches. I'll take that for now as it's an improvement, and it didn't impart any noticeable "off-notes" to the flavor as the 2% did.
I don't know whether the NY was at play, but this run had a thinner crust than the prior did. Which in my book, and many others here, is a really good thing. As MTloaf stated "egg shell thin".
Hey everyone (and hey Dan and Alfonso!)! I'm late to the massive party here -- some incredible posts and great to see all of your baguettes. Dan asked me to drop in and see if I can add some tips to the discussion. I should say that my approach is just one of an infinite way to go about making these tricky sticks, and in the end, I find (perhaps more so than other shapes) they take putting in the repetitions. I'm sure many of you have put in the time with these, so I might be preaching to the choir :) My comments are below, and I must say, I'm by no means an expert with this dough or shape -- no matter how many times I make them I still am challenged (in a good way).
I tend to bulk retard my baguette dough for a few reasons:
Like many of you have posted, I also proof them en couche. I push this proof far, they're very delicate when I go to bake, and since I proof at room temperature, they can be hard to score. To help with this, I take my entire proofing board with couche and pop it into the fridge for 15-20 minutes to just barely firm up the exterior of the dough. This is not so much as to impart a thick crust, but just enough to make the dough slightly cold to the touch. Then I quickly take them out, score, load into the oven, and steam. If you're having trouble with scoring, this may help.
I'd suggest trying to make these with 100% white flour, and I tend to like lower protein white flour (11% or so) as it helps to lighten them up, and you get a more open interior with a thinner crust. Further, it helps to reduce the sourness in the end.
In general, I'm going for super-strong fermentation in the dough. After the bulk retard, I see lots of fermentation activity on the bottom of the dough when I go to shape: lots and lots of bubbles. Further, the dough is quite elastic and strong, but not so much as it's hard to shape and roll them out. I often hand mix this dough and only give it a few folds during bulk fermentation.
Shaping... What can we say? It's hard with baguettes and takes practice. There's a bunch of different methods out there, and I've gone through several of them. I'm not sure which I prefer, and I think it depends on the dough and the formula you're using. If it's an elastic, lower hydration dough you're working with, I might just do a few cinches (curling the dough up and tucking it in before rolling out), but if it's a higher hydration dough and feels extensible, I might opt for a shaping style as I have at my website (which is inspired by Jeffrey Hamelman and what he showed in his course in Washington I attended).
I find with baguettes, it's critical to get as much steam in the home oven as possible. Over steam it. I know this is a challenge for all of us home bakers, but it helps get that shiny, super-thin crust (assuming all else is lined up).
I've also played with direct doughs (meaning they're baked the same day they're mixed) quite a bit, while I haven't arrived on my preferred approach yet, here's a look at a result I've had lately.
This is a recent bake with bulk retarded dough that came out wonderful, but a bit tight in areas.
In the end, I find baguettes are a real test in finding balance. When shaping, you want to give the dough just enough tension to hold its shape through to baking, but not handle it so much that the dough is thoroughly degassed. For flavor, I'm always trying to find a clean, minimally sour baguette that's sweet and mild. Partly-whole grain baguettes start to move away from this ideal, but I do like baking with whole grains! To get that thin crust, a direct dough is one way to go or a bulk retard -- but either way, maximal steam is essential.
The baguettes below were bulk retarded, shaped in the morning, proofed en couche, and baked hot and fast with as much steam as I could throw at my home oven. The crust was thin and colored wonderfully -- I was totally happy with the results!
I hope these few tips help. I'm always learning and always practicing at these, a bread that seems simple but has complexity oozing from every step in the process.
So great that you’re able to join us here Maurizio!! Your beginner sourdough recipe was what got me off to a good start last year baking sourdough. Your instructions and guidance on your website are second to none.
It sounds like the process you’re doing is similar to what I’ve ended up doing most of the time. I have been handling the dough less and less during bulk fermentation to develop less gluten. I too bulk cold retard, then pre-shape, shape and then placed the couched baguettes in the fridge until the oven is at temperature.
I’m still trying to find that best oven setup for my oven and still working on the best flour for texture and flavour which is especially hard during the COVID-19 pandemic.
The baguette photo you posted looks outstanding especially for a fully levained baguette rather than my hybrid levain and IDY baguettes.
Benny
Thanks, I appreciate that! Yes, finding the right flour for baguettes is a challenge to be sure. I have liked Central Milling ABC Plus (which is malted) and Giusto's Artisan Bread Flour -- both are lower protein than typical "bread" flour, around 11%. I think finding softer wheat and dialing back the hydration will be a future goal of mine as well.
Thanks again and happy baking!
Maury, you wrote, “ I push this proof far, they're very delicate when I go to bake, and since I proof at room temperature, they can be hard to score”. You also mentioned “bubbles on the bottom at the completion of the BF”.
Please speak a little more on the clues you use to end both the BF and the Final Proof.
Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough post! We always appreciate your help.
Danny
When ending a bulk retarded dough there's little in terms of fermentation adjustment you can do at that point besides bringing it out and letting it warm up to ferment further on the counter. The dough should have been fermented far enough by the time you stick it in the fridge to keep it going while it cools and eventually until the time you pull it out. The challenge there is you have to adjust for the mass of the dough (which takes longer to cool), the container it's in, and the strength of your fridge. It's a bit of trial and error in your own kitchen.
For the final proof, I like my baguette dough to feel very aerated and soft. Poking with a finger will show the indentation return very slowly, not fully filling back in. If you bake them and you get super tall ears or excessive rise, proof longer next time to temper that oven spring. Conversely, if you see little to no rise, you've gone a bit too far.
I wished I had been more clear.
How to you determine the completion of the room temperature portion of the BF, before placing in the the fridge or retarder?
And a particularly excellent batard, gift of Maurizio, last November.
Very cool you guys met and you got to try some of Maurizio’s bread.
Ah, that was fun! Back when meeting up without masks was a thing. Was really great meeting and chatting bread, of course!
As you stated, we have all learned to respect the entire process of taking a few simple ingredients and making them into a nice baton. It doesn't come without practice or diligence and requires a steady hand. If anyone wants to improve or challenge their skills this is the bread to measure by.
I have learned so much about the sourdough process from your site and anytime someone ask me how to do sourdough, I send them to your place. I would also like to thank you for steering me towards the Oxo jar spatula that is my favorite can't do without bread tool.
Happy Baking Don
Totally agree. And thanks for spreading the word, Don! It's funny how a small tool can make life so much easier. Happy baking!
Well this was both promising and in the end disappointing.
Hamelman Baguette with Poolish formula, with some mods.
The shaping was heavenly and the first time that I’ve been able to get the dough to easily roll out to the full 21 inches and stay there. They were simple to remove from couche and load onto the oven peel.
The scoring and shaping seems really good to me and they looked so promising as they were loaded. But for the life of me, I don’t get the lack of grigne on these.
The crust is amazingly crunchy, a bit akin to glass bread, and the crumb is soft, but there is a distinct lack of flavor profile. Maybe these came out exactly as designed, and while being okay and something that I'd consider making again, are not much of a hit with me.
The good: Adding the NY to the water incorporates it fully. Easy to bump the hydration up by 2.4%. Dough felt great during pre-shape and final shape. First time with these longer loaves that I've reached consistent good shaping. Scoring was also a charm. Crust is delightful and super crisp but could be a tad thinner.
The bad: Lack of grigne is 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The crumb seems as though it should have opened more considering the dough did get a pretty good oven spring. The taste is fine, and may be exactly what a baguette should be, but just seems a little too insipid.
Anyone who wishes to chime in on the lack of grigne is certainly welcome. I feel as though I'm right back to that series of Martin Philip poolish baguettes from a month or so ago, and finally concluded then that my surface tension was part culprit.
Taking any and all suggestions here.
Here is my baking peel, well some of it anyway. Simple to load the baguettes sideways with the parchment.
Tea released..The halfway point.
The shaped dough looks absolutely gorgeous! Are you using your typical flour?
Like you, from the looks of the shaped dough, excellence would be expected.
Same steaming technique?
Question -
When loading 3 baguettes on a single parchment do they remain in the same exact spot you placed them, or do they move slightly on the paper? I’d have to staple my parchment to be large enough to fit the loading borad, but it might be worth a try. IMO, anything that reduces stress during that critical time and s worth the effort.
with every aspect and every step of the way. Once I load the dough and shut the door I habitually never even glance in through the door window to see what's going on - I'm used to knowing what to expect. So it was quite a surprise to see these when I released the steam.
Yes, steaming technique, pre bake heating for a hour all were the same. I can only guess that maybe these required more surface tension, as was my perceived problem with the Martin Philip baguettes - also a poolish IDY formula.
The loading of the dough is now pretty assured and accurate. I bring the masonite peel all the way into the oven, and with a slight shuffling movement deposit the first baguette at the rear. Once it and the parchment land I start to pull away and the most minimal effort is required to keep letting the other two drop, same little shuffling, if that. And that also keeps the parchment from "bunching up".
Alan, do you put any thing between the parchment and the board to enhance the slide? Like rice flour, corn meal, semolina, etc..
which is what I always use for the long batards. The parchment just slides off the peel easily. I'll reuse the parchment 3 or 4 times (ala dabrownman) until it basically crinkles and falls apart, but it never exhibits any problem coming off the peel.
Then I would guess they were over proofed a little. They look puffy going into the oven. I don't have that much experience with poolish baggies but I noticed they have to be done in a certain amount of time or they lose their strength. I would try it without retarding the shaped loaves to see if it changes the outcome. It sounds like your dough handled like mine the poolish adds a lot of strength. My bulk was two hours and less than 50% growth. I tried to stay at the 73 degree DT the whole time. They proofed for 45 minutes and had not grown much but when I see the gray bubbles in the dough I put them in the oven. The BBGA USA worked better for me than the Hammelman, plus it has a little SD in there to give it a little more flavor.
Don, did the SD thicken the crust or increase the chew?
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