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Norm's Onion Rolls &, at no extra charge, Kaiser Rolls.

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dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Norm's Onion Rolls &, at no extra charge, Kaiser Rolls.

Norm's Onion Rolls

Norm's Onion Rolls

  These Kaiser Rolls (AKA hard rolls, vienna rolls, bulkies) were made with the same dough used for onion rolls.

Norm's Kaiser Rolls: These Kaiser Rolls (AKA hard rolls, vienna rolls, bulkies) were made with the same dough used for onion rolls.

I didn't grow up in New York. We did have a Jewish Bakery in Fresno when I was younger. They got me addicted to Sour Rye and Jewish Corn Rye and pumpernickel and cheese pockets. They made onion rolls, too, but I never liked them much. They were fluffy with a boring crust and no "tam."

 The carryings on about how wonderful onion rolls used to be by folks on TFL who hail from NYC and environs made me think maybe I'd missed something, so when Norm posted his formula, I thought I should try making them. I got distracted by other baking projects, but the recent postings about these rolls re-activated my intention to make them. Thanks to Eric, Elgins, RFMonaco and Eli. I am delighted to join you!

These onion rolls are, as Norm said, "only onion rolls." Yeah. Like a stradivarius is "only a fiddle." 

 Kaiser rolls are made from the same dough as onion rolls. What is most different is the elaborate shaping. Ever since I read Greenstein's description of the old-time bakers sitting around the bench "klopping" hundreds of vienna rolls every night for the breakfast rush, I've wanted to try doing this. Well, the rolls are delicious, with a substantial crust and  sweet, chewy crumb. We had them tonight with "hamburgers" made with ground chicken. These are not your fast food joint's soggy, tasteless buns. What they really need is a pile of thin sliced juicy roast beef, or roasted brisket, better yet, or maybe chopped liver. 

My klopping needs some work. They will be prettier next time, but I can't really imagine them tasting better.

The hamburger was good. But the best part of dinner was dessert - An onion roll sliced in half with sweet butter.

Thanks, Norm! 

 FYI, all the rolls were scaled to 2.55 oz. I think this was just right for the onion rolls. Next time I make Kaiser Rolls, I think I will scale them to 3 oz.

David 

Comments

LindyD's picture
LindyD

They look so great, David, that I can almost smell them.  Love the shape of that "smiley."

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

What are you going to do with 2 oz of leftover dough that looks too good to throw out? I made a micro-bâtard and bent it into a curve. It got eaten while the rest of dinner was cooking, of course.


David

Richelle's picture
Richelle

Hola David,

I made them as well last weekend and all the lovely things that have already been written about them are absolutely true... I had to hide some in the freezer, otherwise they would have all been gobbled up on the spot! And the smell coming out of the oven - even still after three more baking sessions ! - is incredible!

As it  happens I was looking for Kaiser recipes last weekend, as I recently bought a little gadget to impress the characteristic shape in the rolls. But, there's a nice tutorial on shaping Kaiser rolls here, if you are interested:

http://www.preparedpantry.com/howtomakekaiserrolls.htm

referred to by Chili & Ciabatta on her blog, 18th of September 2008, here:

http://peho.typepad.com/chili_und_ciabatta/brot/index.html

Richelle

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

And thanks for the links. I'll check them out.

My sense is that forming kaiser rolls will come with practice, just like other loaf forming and scoring techniques.

I also froze most of the onion rolls. I'm taking them to my 93 year old father-in-law in Los Angeles this weekend. He is a real onion roll addict, but Norm's are much better than what he gets at bakeries in L.A., in my opinion. We'll see what he thinks.


David

nbicomputers's picture
nbicomputers

most of the time i do not make comments about the content found on other sites but i must say the information on the sate you listed is not correct and that is not and i repete not the way to shape a kaiser roll

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Norm.

I want you to know, I shaped mine with the traditional method. But I've only read descriptions and seen line drawings of the steps. I did not have the benefit of a boss standing over me, ready to box my ears when I bungled it. So, unless you are ready to post a video (hint, hint), I'll just have to learn by trial and error.

You could help me by telling where you aim your karate chops relative to your thumb - the overlapping fold edge next to the thumb? The middle of the new flap of dough? The far edge of the flap?


David

nbicomputers's picture
nbicomputers

it is true great minds think alike.

right know i am out of hi gluten but i should be getting it this week or next.

I was planing to make a video on how to shape it. I am not sure how to post it maybe with Floydm's help i can post it or maybe i could send it to him by email and if he liks it he could post it.

yes it kind of hard to learn from line drawings it took me a lot of time to learn to do it correctly and a lot more to get fast at it.

shaping these is like being a cheff at one of thouse asian resterants where the cheff cooks at the table.  you have to be fast and a dead eye. one wrong move and OUCH!
while learning i lost count how many times i smahed my thumb with my klopping hand.

Ps: dust the rolls well with white rye flour before you shape them.  the soft rye flour will help keep the folds seperate resulting in a roll that blooms in the oven rather than just getting a round roll with cuts on the top or worse just a round roll that has just a ball shape with no lines at all what we call baking blind.

at home fast is not important but i still woud\ld not take my eyes off the roll when shapping which can happen if my wife starts talking to me while i have my thumb in the middle of a roll.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Norm.

I neglected to dust the rolls before shaping them, but I did proof them with the folds down on parchment heavily dusted with rye flour.

The Kaiser Rolls I've seen in bakeries and photos on this coast didn't have much bloom, but I bet they were shaped with a stamp rather than by hand. If you have a photo of what they ought to look like, I'd love to see it. I may have my sights on the wrong target.


David

nbicomputers's picture
nbicomputers

sorry to say that i do not have a picture tet bui i will . i am goinf to make that video as soon as u get the hi gluten fkour i want the video to be correct.

and i am also sorry to say that you are right. 99 % if not all of the rolls you see today are stamped by automatic madhine. the macaine drips oil in the rolls to keep the cuts from stiking toghter but it does not work well.  The operator loads in the dough balls and depending on the type of machine NS  hydralic of air powered pistonstamps the oiled dough with the shape. the stamped rolls are droped out on a convayer belt where a second operator picks them up and pans them.

some machines can be operated by a single person.

due to the high cost of labor and the lack of young people that want to learn the baking trade the shapping (klopping) of rolls is a dieing if not allready dead skill. I only know od a few bakers that can do it.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thanks Norm.

I look forward to your video.

If I have my way, there will soon be at least one more home baker who keeps klopping a living skill.


David

chahira daoud's picture
chahira daoud

Thank you so much for sharing , i have never try these onion rolls before , i have to make this recipe , Where can i find it??

These rolls look very yummy!!!!!

http://chahiraelkhabira.blogspot.com/

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Eric posted the recipe here:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/8903/norm039s-ny-style-onion-rollsomg-great

Also, do a search on TFL for other onion roll entries. Some have additional tips that are helpful.


David

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Those look great David! That's that convection air blowing around. Did you do anything differently to the tops?

Eric 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hey! I just followed your instructions. :-)


David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Eric,

See the photo of my second batch of onion rolls which I baked tonight. (They are addicting!) The crust was thinner and less crisp. I let them proof a little longer. The crumb was more tender and fluffier, but I did substitute bread flour for 1/3 of the high gluten flour too.

This was a larger batch than the last, and the rolls were more crowded on the baking stone. I think that did make a substantial difference in the crust.

In any case, these were delicious with dinner. We'll see how they are after freezing.


David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Onion rolls, take 2
Onion rolls, take 2 
Onion rolls crumb
Onion rolls crumb 

 I had to make another batch. These go to LA for my father-in-law who thinks he gets good onion rolls at his local bakeries. Ha!

David

msbreadbaker's picture
msbreadbaker

I've been working toward making these rolls and have been looking over all the old info about them since I had a few questions. My current one is, did the video ever get made of the "klopping" was it? Jean P. (VA)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder
msbreadbaker's picture
msbreadbaker

WOW! I could not believe someone would be able to take that much time with each roll. It was amazing, thank you for sending the link. Jean

ehanner's picture
ehanner

I've watched that video a dozen times and using whole fine ground sifted rye, I can't seem to get the folds to show after baking. It must be the white rye flour works better. My left thumb is getting thinner at the end, lol.

Eric

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I found the dough shape held better keeping the dough hydration low. not to exceed 50%.   If the dough moisture is too high when this shape is flipped upside down to rise, the seams grow together.  If I flip the roll over sooner to get a little bit more rise on the right-side-up part of the proof, the folds swell up more. 

tip: with the last tuck it helps to "roll in the collar" where the thumb was keeping the opening open.  Helps to tighten up the seal.  I find my thumb stretches the single thickness opening edge too thin.   Physically it is correct to do so.  When thinking about the other folds, they are all double thickness except the last one.