January 21, 2020 - 1:06am
How to maximize rise/airiness of 100% rye?
I love rye bread, but it can be too dense for my liking.
So how do you suggest my formula should be if I want to maximize the rise/airiness of a 100% rye loaf?
Locked variables:
100% rye wholegrain (incl sourdough starter).
Sourdough only (no added yeast, soda etc)
Example of free variables:
hydration, temperatures, times, sourdough starter feeding, sourdough starter amount in formula, scalding/no scalding, loaf pan/no loaf pan, salt percentage, etc. etc.
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A fine grind will give a higher loaf but a coarser grind gives more flavour.
Inclusion of Altus or already baked rye bread into recipe (not only gives a flavour boost but works in the matrix like straw in clay bricks, giving some strength to it)
Pans, I suggest narrow tall pans around 3" wide not exceeding 4" in width and tall. Give the dough something to climb or rise against for support.
Scalding, watch those temps. Scald only part of the flour.
Lemon juice or other acids can help the matrix if starter isn't sour enough.
Salt, same as reg dough 1.5 to 2.5% depending on your taste. No salt or forgetting it generally leaves large air pockets in top of loaf from run away (too much) fermentation, falling down of delicate matrix. You can often witness this watching the sourdough starter ...after a first maximum rise, dome remains while under the stiff dome the starter has collapsed. Get to know your starter, poking the dome gently but often so that you can predict when this happens at particular temperatures and feeds. This can give you a lot of basic information about starter timing for your particular rye starter.
Get to know how your rye starter tastes at various fermentation phases including before and after feeding. Always spit out after tasting. Note aromas, consistency changes and temperatures. Rye dough when compared to wheat dough will stiffen sooner as temps drop from 75°F.
That rye flour is sticky is a fact of life. Scalds reduce stickiness somewhat and can increase hydration while presenting a firmer dough. If you have learned to handle the dough without getting stuck in it congratulations! Wettish hands and tools are your secret weapon of choice and make for easier clean up. Basic hydration seems to have a sweet spot between 83% and 87% depending on your particular flour. The stickiness is the glue to hold the loaf together while inflating it slowly with gas so enjoy it, work with it. Playing with scalds, seeds, gels can raise hydration and help handling and help "bubble" (fluff doesn't exist with rye) the crumb.
it also helps to develop a love for "bricks" when they come along.
How about dairy, spelt, nut flours and dried fruits and raw sauerkraut?
interesting comments about the starter:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4987/rising-problem-harry-germany039s-rye-bread#comment-25230
Hey Mini, please comment on scalding. I want to learn. Are you talking about Tangzhong?
"Scalding, watch those temps. Scald only part of the flour."
Eager to learn...
Danny
this post and threads, links etc.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/11812/rye-amylase
https://thebreadmaiden.com/2016/02/18/the-science-behind-scalded-flour/
Thank you for lots of tips.
I try in this post follow your post, paragraph by paragraph:
Fine ground I already use. Good.
Altus I have never used. Interesting. I have seen you mentioned it in other posts (seems like a great use of old bread). Would you say whole rye berries (scalded/soaked) could work the same way, giving strength to the matrix?
A narrow bread pan makes sense. The bread pan I usually use is 4'' wide in the base and slightly wider than that at top. But it is tall enough I think; height is > 4'' (all measurements are inner). Perhaps I need to purchase a more narrow pan.
Scalding... You write in the beginning "Scald only part of the flour." and lower down your write "Scalds reduce stickiness..." and "The stickiness is the glue to hold the loaf together while inflating it slowly with gas so enjoy it, work with it". Hmm... it makes me think i should avoid scalding altogether since I want to maximise rise/airiness? Or rather, scalding is not an important weapon in my quest?
Salt. Will not forget.
Lemon juice. Interesting additive. As you might remember from previous exchanges on TFL my rye starter isn't optimized for sourness... rather beasty strength.
"Rye dough when compared to wheat dough will stiffen sooner as temps drop from 75°F." Stiffen? Hmm... Do you mean rising/proofing my rye clay in a colder temp than 75°F will create a higher and stronger matrix? Or do u mean opposite; a stiff dough that won't rise?
Hydration 83% - 87%, that is far lower than my one and only attempt of a 100% rye. (I was close to 100% hydration but that includes a scald.)
Handling... Well I just mixed everything (first I had prepped a scald) in a bowl and then I directly with a spatula/wood spoon scraped it down and evened it out in the pan (were it "rised/proofed" for about 7 hours)... No sticky fingers :-) Since you mention "wettish hands", do you think it is important for me to add steps; first make a "rise" in the bowl and then try do a "shape" and then "proof" in the pan? (So basically try treat it as a wheat based bread... To me those steps seemed unnecessary in this pottery business as well as difficult - and sticky yes :-) )
Yes a rye brick can taste very good. And function well in the repairment of Hadrians wall :-)
You write: "How about dairy, spelt, nut flours and dried fruits and raw sauerkraut?". Spelt I would consider as gluten cheatin' :-) And I would first like to improve my basic rye handling/formula in order to maximise rise/airiness of a 100% rye, but if you have tips that you think are important for my goal I would of course appreciate them, so shoot! Sauerkraut??? Perhaps it functions as straws in your clay bricks :-)
to know if any dietary restrictions exist in your quest.
Are you planning on entering a 100% rye competition?
Spelt and rye are like a married pair that complement each other. Sauerkraut juice is chock full of LAB's and if I remember right the yeast involved is very capable of raising rye paste. Whether you toss the straw in is up to you but it can be a great way to contain moisture that gets used in the bake and released as steam. Makes interesting crust marks too. Whole berries sound heavy, what is your experience? And Flakes? Have you tried the site Centerfold recipe yet? I'm working up to it.
Right now my kitchen is perfumated with butter roasted garlic. Wonderful. Can't concentrate on much else in my garlic high. (I'm working on a valentine post.) Is has enough garlic to post a disclaimer to those taking blood thinners. ❤️
Are there such things as 100% rye rise competitions? There should :-)
No dietary restrictions, I just want to learn how to make airy ryes. And then, for me, it's easier to limit the "rules". Hence no wheat of any kind at the moment.
I used whole rye berries (and cracked rye) when i did mixed rye/wheat loafs. I like that they become chewy. But yes, they are probably to heavy for my present purposes. Rye flakes is a good Idea, i have no experience of them - but they are light and could work as straws in the matrix.
Centerfold recipe?? I might be thick, but which recipe do you mean?
But I found this one : http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/38537/almost-purely-rye-sourdough which is inspiring. Very airy crumb; it's hard to believe that it only has 10% wheat.
Have fun with your garlic experiments!
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/61485/latvianstyle-sourdough-rye-bread
The garlic bread turned out great! Ate a few slices warm. Soooo good! For 350g flour, 85g roasted garlic. (about two heads.). I melted cheese over a warm slice. Oh, man!
Thanks for pointing out that one. Yes that latvian loaf look interesting and quite airy. And also rather complex for a rye novice like me. I can replace the barley malt with rye malt (which I have some of) if I want to maintain my loaf at 100% rye. What are the effects of treacle/molasses (apart from adding sweetness and colour) do you think?
Bread with an overload of roasted garlic sounds very tasty. It makes me think of some german onion bread I have only heard about, but would like to taste some time. You probably know much more about that one.
My opinion comes from my early experiences with rye bread tasting and recipe formulating. There is an underlying note of molasses in rye breads but as I learned, adding small quantities only imitates what can happen naturally when rye bread is fermented and baked. No need too add it if you don't want the extra minerals and sugar. I've never worked with treacle but from what I read it is very much a by-product of sugar making. Both are the liquid that surrounds sugar crystals when they are being formed, the syrup is removed using centrifugal force and large sugar crystals remain to be dried and further processed. The taste and colour comes from the heat applied during the sugar making process and contains any sugar too small to be filtered out as crystals.
For flavour, I skip molasses. I've used molasses when asked, in recipe testing, but usually the recipes involve a fast fermenting and baking method and a large inclusion of wheat flour. I like a higher % of rye in my bread to get the same if not better flavour notes so skip the addition. Recipes that ask for molasses often have replaced rye flour recipes wth wheat flour making small adjustments. The rye flour itself does a good job adding those flavour notes. The down side of using rye flour, if you want to call it that, is a reduction in the volume when compared to wheat breads. The more rye, the less additional volume there will be. The more wheat, the bigger increase in volume.
Altus, because it is already baked bread (pre-gelantinized starches) and especially the crust, will contain flavonoids not found in raw dough. The main reason it is used and it provides immediate yeast food in the sourdough culture during elaboration. You may notice a speeding up in fermentation. In a bakery, some bread (legally regulated) will be set aside each day for the next day's bake. At home, it is easy enough to save a few slices in the freezer or dry a few fresh slices (can even toast) and save for use. Very important not to use old bread that is old, molding or otherwise not worth eating.
Altus can be soaked in the recipe liquids or separately and squeezed out (use the squeezed out water in recipe.) broken or cut into cubes (croutons) or grated for dry use, depends on your kitchen equipment and personal time. No need to adjust a recipe for salt if the Altus bread was balanced. Dry crumbs can be weighed and the appropriate % of water added to the dough to approximate dough hydration. How much to use? Start with about a 60g bread slice for 500g total flour and go from there.