January 15, 2019 - 8:51pm
Newbie: adapting recipes to an Ankarsrum
Hi guys,
I've been reading nothing but bread making literature for the past three days and I feel like I'm ready to start failing and experimenting in the kitchen with actual baking.
The only thing that has me really confused is how to adapt the recipes I see posted on this site with my stand mixer, a Ankarsrum 6230. I sometimes read contradictory statements.
All the Ankarsrum videos I've watched mention to dump liquids first and everything else after.
Some recipes as they are written gives the impression the particular order matters, so I'm not too sure how I should adapt them.
Do you just use a standmixer when heavy kneading is immediately required and sometimes mix by hand?
Share
... always an option, at least theoretically. (Clearly if you have an injured hand, a medical problem affecting strength, or whatever, it might not be practical.)
Francis, I have an Ank, and I don't adapt the recipe at all - I use all the same ingredients in the same order. I have seen some videos that suggest you add the liquids first, I actually add the flour first, then the liquid, though that is because that is the order that I normally weigh out the ingredients. While some suggest the Ank has a learning curve, IMO, that is primarily for people who have used the Kitchen Aid, and have to unlearn some KA habits.
In detail, my process is: I add the dry, then the liquid, then mix on low speed for a few minutes. Depending on how much flour there is in the bowl, you may need to bring the arm into the center for a second a few times to get all the materials incorporated. This is the same time you may want to adjust the roller distance- since I am normally making the same sized loaf, I leave it in the same place. Once the ingredients are mixed, I turn the speed up to kneading speed. ( I have the older 3 speed model - so I go to high , for the newer Ank's, you go to the 3rd level, not the 4th level) I watch it for a minute or two, and use a spatula to scrape the back side of the scraper once or twice so that dough gets incorporated. Then I set it for the time I want it to knead, and come back when it is done.
Barry, the only thing I haven't figured out on my Ankarsrum is the kneading speed. All I have read says 3:00 -4:00. It takes a long, long time to knead (with the roller) at 4:00.
So, what would you suggest would be 3rd level? 5:00 or 6:00? I think there are 8 marks total on the dial (new model).
To the OP- these are my thoughts on using the Ankarsrum mixer...
Order of ingredients- I think the reason Ankarsrum people say to add dry ingredients last is so that the flour is not on the bottom of the bowl with liquid sitting on top. I usually add liquids first with yeast or starter, then some dry ingredients, then add 1/2 the flour. Then I add the salt and add most of the other half of the flour. Since I always scrape the bowl and the back of the bowl scraper with a spatula, it would be easy to scrape any flour off the bottom if I added it first. So, I don't think ingredient order is that important.
Recipes- Sometimes I use all the flour in a recipe and sometimes I use less. I guess the recipe is based on how the recipe developer measured the flour. I always spoon flour into the measuring cup, but some people do not. I always weigh everything in grams including liquids. The recipes are more accurate when ingredients are weighed. When I use a recipe with volume measurements (cups) I usually have trouble with it because I have to use measuring cups to guess how much flour they packed in. Then I have to weigh the flour, make notes on how that amount of flour worked, then did more or less flour the next time I use that recipe. It is so much easier to find a recipe using grams. Thankfully, most recipes on this site use grams.
Dough hook- the Ankarsrum people say to only use the dough hook for extra large batches of dough or for heavy, low hydration dough. Some people on this site use the dough hook successfully instead of the roller. In my opinion, the dough hook tears the dough instead of stretching it. The roller looks like it isn't doing anything because it is so gentle. It does take longer to use the roller to knead, but that may be because I am still trying to figure out which speed to use.
Their manual/recipe book is not the best. I am sure they hired people to develop some recipes for them. Ashley McCord is one that comes to mind, but Ankarsrum has given mixers to lots of web sites to review with stipulations that a recipe is developed. I can only assume that Ankarsrum will use the recipes in their recipe booklet. I have found many Ankarsrum recipes that don't work well for me. I count on bread bakers' recipes on this web site, but I still have no idea on what speed to knead since most of the recipes knead by hand. It is still a learning process after 1.5 years of using it.
Search for : Ankarsrum USA_English manual.pdf
So when the recipe calls for a 20min to 2h autolyse, you just leave the mix in the stainless bowl on the counter and resume kneading in the machine afterwards?
For instance, this recipe (the photos of which that had me salivating on the floor) calls for multiple steps when the dough needs to be left alone: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/57221/mostly-white-sourdough
Autolyse, bulk fermenting, S&F every hour over 3 hours...
I bought rye flour yesterday so I can make my own NMNF starter but I understand it will take weeks before it's ready for me to use, so in the mean time I'll be making easier recipes with active dry yeast.
Thanks for your help, your detailed step-by-step was a big help in visualizing what I'll be doing. I haven't received the Ankarsrum, so I'm still relying on videos for visual help.
I have only used autolyse for 20 min to 1 hour, but I leave the dough in the stainless steel bowl with the scraper and roller unhooked but sitting inside the bowl. I have also left the scraper and roller connected and covered the bowl with a damp flour-sack cloth. It is very thin. I don't know which would be best though. I wish someone would create an Ankarsrum recipe book.
I don't know about using the Ankarsrum every hour for the slap and folds. How long would you run the mixer and on what speed to mimic the slap and fold technique? I think for that recipe, it would be easier to do the slap and fold, but I have also seen videos where slap and fold is done for 20 minutes. Not fun for me!
She never actually says she uses an electric mixer...unless I missed it. I can only assume the S&F is done by hand at 1 hr, 2 hr, and 3 hrs AFTER mixing.
I just realized...not sure what S&F means...slap and fold or stretch and fold. Maybe slap and fold is SSF...slap, stretch and fold???
I am still learning too! When you get your Ankarsrum and try this recipe, post here to let us know how it went, how long you used the machine to slap and fold, and at what speed.
King Arthur Flour has a liquid sour dough starter which only needs fed a couple of days before you use it. Just in case your starter takes too long. I gave up on my starter because I think I got the wrong sort of bacteria in it. Stomach troubles!!!
Patti, first, as to speeds, I have the older model and it has 3 layers of bars. So I assume it was low, medium , high. I recall Ashley saying in a video that high on the newer machines is for things like egg whites. I would turn it 2/3 of the way to full and see how that works. Some say that the action is more gentle, and it takes a little longer.
On the S & F, yes, you are right there are two different techniques, and the same S & F is used by some people to mean slap and fold, and others use it to mean Stretch and Fold. I don't SL & F, I stretch. For me, i usually want the dough to be resting so that it will relax and spread out, so I put it under an inverted bowl, and I stretch by hand, and then fold.
As to autolyze, I normally disconnect the scraper and the roller, and lay them in the bowl, and then put the plastic bowl cover on the bowl.
Autolyse- I am doing that right, yay! Yes, SF is confusing.
Ankarsrum speed- I have been kneading on about 4:00, so I might try 5:00 the next time. Thanks
The videos are correct. Do the liquid first. I've had mine 8 years now and after tweaking my recipes I'm very happy with my results. I make a Sour Rye and a Polish Country Bread( which uses a rye soaker and both white and rye sours). I also add a small amount of commercial yeast. I make 4 loaves at a time and start with the commercial yeast in 200 gas of warm water then add 570 gms of warm water and my sours and soaker and finally flour (1466 gas) and salt only 5 gas(I'm on a low salt diet). I mix at lowest speed for a minute to get all the ingredients blended and then ramp up to very high speed for 2 -3 minutes using a rigid spatula to keep the dough from climbing too much. When it pulls away from the sides I removed the dough and do a stretch and fold & repeat that process every 30 minutes 3 times. I put the dough in an oiled bowl after folding and autolyze. After that It's into the refrigerator for a couple of hours with a large plastic bag over the bowl to prevent skin from forming on the top. Since adding the commercial yeast I've been getting great results. Both recipes have 6000 + gas weight and give me 4 loaves at a clip. The ankarscrum is a different mixer but once you've adapted you'll find it can do the heavy duty work quite well. Best of Luck with your MIxer
Regards,
Big Crusty
Thanks, BigCrusty. I will try your recipe once I get my ovens fixed and get more sourdough starter. I had to throw mine out because it was bothering our stomachs. No mold on it, no liquid on top, fed it when I was supposed to, smelled okay, but something was just wrong with it. (KAF starter) My first attempt with sourdough was time consuming and flour consuming...I am just too new working with sourdough. I can't seem to remember or understand how to keep only a small amount going in the refrigerator. Throw in changing hydration levels and changing to WW or rye starters and I get really confused. Too much information...too soon, I guess.
Your recipe:
X grams commercial yeast in 200 grams warm water
570 grams warm water
X grams white starter
X grams rye starter
X grams rye soaker???
1466 grams flour (what kind?)
5 grams salt
Mix on low speed (12:00 on dial). Then mix "very high speed" 6:00? 7:00? for 2-3 min only. Remove when dough pulls away from sides of bowl. You don't knead with the roller. Then do 3 stretch and folds every half hour and put dough in oiled bowl after each stretch and fold. Does that mean the dough will stay at room temp in the oiled bowl for 1.5 hours? Then cover with plastic bag and refrigerate for 2-3 hours before baking. Do you spray the bags first or oil them?
Patti,
I understand. It was new to me ten years ago when I started Artisan Baking. When I make and refresh starter I use a raisin water in a 1 to 1 ratio to flour. For my white starter I use Dakota Mills Bread Flour and I mill my own Rye and Wheat flour. I scrape off the top when I refresh and leave very little (approx 75-100 gas) in my starter container(pyrex glass bowl) adding 100 gms flour and 100gms premixed in another bowl. I mix and fold thoroughly in the starter containers and for the rye and white starters leave at room temp for 10-12 hours then back in the fridge. Wheat starter is different as it can't be left at room temperature. It needs to be a 55-65 F so after mixing I leave out for a hour and then refrigerate at 50 F in my small bread refrigerator. I refresh once a week generally. Over time I had to learn from a number of mistakes such as getting the hydration right to oversteaming my oven to forgetting salt or caraway seeds. I always was able to eat what I made and it was better than commercial. Now my friends and grandkids love to get my bread. So keep at it. It's a hobby not a commercial enterprise. Here's the recipe for the Polish Country and Sourdough Rye Bread. Remember I make 4 loaves at a time. The 1x column is going to make 2 loaves.
Bake at 460° F for 15 minutes, then reduce heat to 440° F for another 30-35 minutes
Regards,
Big Crusty
Thank you for the 2 recipes. When I get my starter ready to go, I will make both of these recipes.
1. So, a quadruple recipe makes 8 loaves?
2. I will have to figure out what Altus is. I am guessing a dough enhancer?
#3 & 4 are for the Light rye Recipe:
3. " Prepare the Sour by 3 stages to obtain the correct amount for production. tc.). This is best done overnight stage 1, 4-6 hours stage 2, 4 hours stage 3 " The 3 stages...the 1st stage is overnight, the 2nd stage is 4-6 hours ? The 3rd stage is 4 hours later?
4. " Combine the common flour with salt and add 66-75% slowly at mixer turns at Speed 1. Add remainder of flour with salt as mixer blends the ingredients. This is best done overnight stage 1, 4-6 hours stage 2, 4 hours stage 3 "
Sorry, you lost me again.....it doesn't take much to confuse me about sourdough! ?
Thanks for your help.
In my opinion, the key in deciding whether to follow or ignore instructions about when to add certain ingredients is understanding why they've done it that way.
Perhaps a short-hand way to describe the difference could be: Is there a "baking science" reason for doing it this way, or is this merely what was efficient in the author's kitchen and with the author's machine?
You can (and probably should) change the efficiency tricks, to suit your kitchen and your machine.