December 17, 2018 - 8:49am
Shipton Mill biodynamic stoneground wholemeal flour
Does anyone here have experience using UK Shipton Mill biodynamic wholemeal stoneground flour?
I was keen to use this as it's totally UK, grown around the corner from the mill. It's coarser than any other stoneground wheat I've used before and really doesn't seem to absorb water in the way I'm used to.
My normal recipe sourdough's bulk ferment has turned into a gloopy mess. Not sure whether I needed to use less water or whether enzymes have had a field day.
Any previous experience and tips would help!
Thanks.
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It's always a good idea to hold water back and slowly add it if it needs it. If I were you I'd get in an autolyse, if you aren't doing so already, as it is a coarse flour. So something like this...
Low(er) hydration autolyse without starter or salt. For minimum of 1 hour.
Add the salt and starter and incorporate. Use this stage to add in extra water till it feels right. Make a note of how much water this flour needs for next time. Then start with the stretch and folds. Don't overdo the bulk ferment either. Once the dough looks and feels right then move on. Don't wait for doubled. It should be aerated and have a good matrix of air bubbles.
It will take some trial and error with a new flour.
Thanks Abe. I did do an autolyse - a long one at 5/6 hours. I added salt to it though. I thought I had put the minimum water in to get all the loose flour captured.
When it came to combining I literally just added the starter and kneaded, as I could see it didn't need more water (or flour, I thought!)
I then left for 18 hours, in prob about 14C. It rose maybe 25%...
At that point found it had gone gloopy, so worked in a lot of extra flour before proofing for 3 hours. It rose maybe 25%...
On cooking I got some crust cracks, so something happened! I'd say maybe another 20% in oven. It is pretty much a brick though. Does not have the pronounced sour tang I am used to, so my activity can't have been strong. Flour tastes v good though!!
I wasn't planning on writing that much but your thoughts are very welcome. (I've been experimenting with your learned farina d'autore biga method a bit.)
I've been thinking about trying this recipe, Alison. It's for Red Fife flour but why not give it a go with the Shipton Mill flour? Final hydration is around 80% but for the additional water, when combing the autolyse and levain, just add it slowly till it feels good for the flour being used.
Let me know what you think.
What a wonderful mill, website and recipe. Thanks for passing this on. Do you have this actual flour to try? The site has inspired me...the content is very well-written.
I was gearing myself up to move to Peter Reinhart's WG delayed-fermentation method, but reading this recipe, I've decided to back up and try it instead. I'm knee-deep in 100% rye this weekend for my hubby but hope to give it a go over Christmas.
I'll let you know how it goes; can I tag you in a post on here?
Went to Miami a couple of months ago and brought some back with me. Also brought back some Turkey Red flour but have used it all up. Was thinking about a Red Fife sourdough recipe when I received the newsletter from Anson Mills with this recipe in it. Will be trying it over the Christmas holidays.
So what do you have planned for the Rye bake? Any favourite recipes?
Of course you can Alison. And looking forward to results.
P.s. I see you live in London. If you can come up to Covent Garden area I can give you some Red Fife flour if you want. I bought 1.3kg back with me.
That's a generous offer, Abe, thank you, but my days in London are behind me; I've been in Penzance a couple of years.
I'm planning the Red Fife recipe for baking Christmas morning. The rye I've been most successful with so far is a Hadjiandraou recipe from How to Make Sourdough. I am not keen, but my hubby is. I'm doing that this weekend along with a first go at a pumpernickel. I have three malts (pale, crystal and chocolate) to add in and am quite excited! It will be our Christmas eve supper treat.
There are two things in that Anson Mills recipe that have really piqued my interest. I wondered whether you knew more?
Firstly, there's this:
"properly grown, the seed isn’t dormant or dead but breathing oxygen like the rest of us. Aerobic new crop cereals are the foundation of live versus provision flour bread making. Red Fife can be new crop live or dormant provision, but ours is always new crop and aerobic."
I thought that when a grain is attached to a plant it is alive and the thing that determines it 'dying' is the act of harvest?!
Secondly:
"Anson Mills products are best stored in the freezer to stave off staling."
I had never heard of this before. I searched on here but found nothing. Is this a common practice?
I'll report back on the Shipton Mill experiment.
You really have given up the London life. Far away from the hustle and bustle.
I have the book and do love the raisin rye loaf. Haven't made it in a long time though. It is delicious like a fruit bread. Goes well with cheese. As crystal rye can be close to red rye (well mine is but I'm not sure they all are - it depends on the colour - is it a deep red colour?) have you thought about something like a Borodinsky bread?
TBH I really don't know what they mean in that first paragraph. Perhaps start is forum discussion on this. See if anyone else does.
As for the second one I'm going to say that wholegrains last longer in the freezer due to them being more unstable as they can go rancid because of the oils present. Always store in a cool place and if you're going through it too slowly or its warm then storing in the fridge/freezer is a good idea. However you should store it in a way moisture doesn't become an issue.
Looking forward to your results. My aim is to build the 1st levain Monday night to bake the loaf on Wednesday morning.
...before Penzance, we were by a lake in Italy. Came back to have my son. I've realised that really, I want to be back there and we're pointing ourselves in that direction. That's why I was particularly interested in your Ezio Marinato learnings.
My crystal rye is more chestnut than red. I like the Borondinsky though and I think that might be my next rye move.
I will start a forum discussion on the aerobic new crop when I get a mo. I am intrigued.
Most of my Shipton flour has a date of May next year. I think it will be gone by Feb. Where's the line for room-temp storage? Ideally, I'd like to mill my own. I've been eye-ing up some grain mills. They are a long way out of budget right now though.
I love your Bouliardii experiment. I am a microbe-freak (every corner of my kitchen has something intentionally growing in it!) and I like the idea of manipulating food in this way. Looking forward to reading how it tastes.
Thanks for your help.
Sounds wonderful. And a good place to aim for. Good luck in your goals.
My crystal rye is a dark chestnut colour but when ground into flour it looks so close to red rye malt. I use that in my Borodinsky Bread. Can't find Red Rye Malt but this is very close indeed!
I generally keep my wholegrain at room temperature till it's opened and then I'll seal it in an airtight bag (something like a large ziplock sandwich bag) and refrigerate. I should think an unopened packet in the winter at room temperature is fine. If you use it up within a week or two once opened and it isn't too warm then fine too. Any longer, or warmer, then refrigerate in an airtight container/bag. But please put it to the community for a more informed answer.
The S. Boulardii spelt loaf came out lovely. The yeast performed very well. A lovely soft crumb. But, and this goes for any yeasted bread, it's not a sourdough and because I'm so used to sourdough it always lacks something. Sourdough really is the best when it comes to flavour. I rarely do yeasted breads but when I do I think "very tasty but it's not a sourdough". However when toasted the seeds really bring out great flavour. The kefir, while it is rich in lactic acid bacteria, lend the bread only a soft texture.
I used to make a kefir-only-fermented bread with blended, soaked grains. I fermented it for at least a day. It was rarely sour like my sourdough is these days. I am interested in understanding what the difference in taste between lactic acid and acetic acid in a finished sourdough is.
I'd love to take a look at your Borondinsky recipe if you feel like sharing :-)
I've gone through the Red Fife recipe in detail. I'm nervous about that much salt (salt and me have issues!). I'm used to a much lower percentage...but am always struggling with timing alterations based on my desire for salt reduction. I might take the salt down to 2%.
Thanks for your input and wishes!
Lactic acid is more like a yoghurt and acetic is vinegar. I think making a bread that's fermented in warm temps brings out a stronger lactic acid flavour. In fact the bacteria within a sourdough starter favour lactic acid. If you try Teresa Greenway's San Francisco sourdough recipe it has a strong lactic acid flavour. Very tasty indeed!
I don't have one particular one a I do. I just follow the method of building enough starter, doing a scald with the red rye malt, adding the starter to the scald and giving it time to mature, adding the rest of the flour with salt and coriander, leaving it to bulk ferment, portion out into the loaf pan, final proofing and baking. I don't have one written out. I'll follow a recipe that has all these elements and sticks to the traditional formula.
Here is one I've done before: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/37222/borodinsky-supreme-old-school-100-rye
I normally leave it 100% wholegrain rye flour and miss out the yeast though.
Another one: http://theryebaker.com/auerman-borodinskyborodinskiy-khleb-russia/
Then there's opinions on what goes into the scald so I just stick to rye flour and malt.
Another on with a video: https://youtu.be/ZQ_p7IihoZs
How much is the salt percentage? Let me see...
I make it at 2.43%
Normal range is usually 1.8-2%. So let's keep it at 1.8% since you want to go easy on salt.
If you're making half the recipe for one loaf then make it 9.2g. If you're making two loaves then 18.4g.
Do you concur?
Happy Holidays Alison.
Thanks, Abe. I like The Rye Baker recipe. I think I'd like to give that a go. My crystal malt is barley, though, not rye. I'm guessing that's OK...baker's license! My creativity is also wanting to add molasses (which we love here) instead of sugar.
Been reading more about the science of acidic fermentation. Trying to get my head around some of Debra Winks' stuff. It's great Christmas day reading!
My 'Red Fife' loaf is awaiting slicing. Looks good, but things didn't go as expected! I might PM you some pics and deets over the next day or so. Hope you have fun with yours.
Thanks for your help. I appreciate it. Happy Christmas!
Mine is Crystal Rye Malt. Although it isn't the same thing I can't see any harm in bakers license. I often miss out the sugar and just make do with molasses. Rye and molasses go so well together!
Can't wait to see your "red Fife" loaf. I'm a day behind you and just about the add the salt and levain to the autolyse. We can discuss our results and see where to go from here. But it's all the taste! Let's wait and see...
Merry Christmas Alison.
P.s. did you make two loaves of one? And how much salt did you go for? I'm doing one loaf and going for 9g salt.
Let me guess Alison... Over proofed! Lack of oven spring?
So here's what I think. First of all it's a good recipe but needs some tweaks here and there. My levain was very active. At twice fed and low hydration it'll be a strong yeasty levain. In just 4 hours both the levain build and bulk ferment were well done. Both stages looked very promising. Dough behaved and smelled good. But I feel it was too far gone for an all night final proof in the fridge. Especially for 100% wholegrain. It's the final proof that lets this recipe down. Not all breads suit a long final proof in the fridge especially not a 100% wholegrain with a high percentage of levain where the bulk ferment has been well done before it hits the fridge. So here's what I suggest for next time...
1: miss out the final proof in the fridge and just do a 1-1.5 hours room temperature final proof. Or leave the dough out for 45 minutes and do an hour or so in the fridge if you wish to bake from cold.
2: do a two hour bulk ferment at room temperature and in this time develop the gluten. Then complete the bulk ferment in the fridge after doing one final stretch and fold. Come the next day shape the dough and final proof at room temperature keeping an eye on it. A 100% wholegrain dough doesn't need to rise as much.
Bread is now cooling. Taste report soon.
P.s. I've kept back 90g of dough to make my next loaf over the weekend incorporating some of the tweaks above.
I don't actually know, Abe!
Here's what happened:
Levain was very active, peaking before time. I added 70ml less water to the autolyse, trying to do as little as possible based on my last experience. My autolyse was only at 19C, my adhoc proofing box can't fit that and my levain in.
The stretch and folds were hard work. I don't do them, I am in the midst of a shoulder issue, so I supervise my hubby doing the arm work. I have found window pane elusive; we almost got there here.
Half way through the proof I took the temp of the dough and it was 23.9. I upped my thermostat to try and get it to 26. I proofed uncovered as my bowl was smallish and I was worried the mix would hit my cling film.
On taking the dough out of my proofer, it looked good from above but was disintegrated - just like what happened last time I used this flour. I tried to get it out of the bowl and it was a sponge, flopping onto my board like a big blob, showing it's honeycomb ferment as it did so. It was very hard to manage after this, expanding and sticking all over the pace. My hubby kneaded it and I would say we used an extra 300g of flour. It was then a stiff dough (too stiff). I couldn't do any of the skin formation, it was too stiff. In the fridge over night it rose 50%.
Cooked one half in a cast iron pan (I don't have a dutch oven) and the other half in a loaf tin. It tastes good; the flour is good. It looks good and did rise in the oven a bit. It is not particularly sour. It is dense, dense, dense!
Is that over-proofed? Or is the problem with the hydration? You are a much more experienced baker than me! I really appreciate the interaction.
I can get some photos on the feed tomorrow if that'd help. Looking forward to hearing more on yours. Thanks.
Managed to get some photos up. Love to see yours.
I used 20g of salt for the two loaves. I wonder if using less salt meant the over-proof was more likely to happen?
I think I'm going to try a Borodinsky for New Year. I have a lot of bread to eat now, so need to be mindful as to what I make! For a treat (I hardly ever have white things in the house!) I bought some 00 flour and am planning to make myself some ciabatta. I will not be long away from the 100% whole wheat though...once these two loaves are munched into I plan to come back to this recipe, so your thoughts really help.
and get them up on here. It's difficult to pinpoint what went wrong. But let's throw out some ideas...
1: The flour is new to you and you need to get a feel for it. The correct hydration etc.
2: You used less water and being wholegrain it might have needed more. Going less than 80% hydration for 100% wholegrain is getting into the low side.
3: From what you describe it over fermented even before it hit the fridge. After 4 hours mine was perfect for a shape, final proof and bake. It was the long overnight ferment in the fridge which was too much. Although sticky after the bulk ferment it had strength. From what you describe it was well over. Perhaps another clue about the properties of this flour. You then went and added a lot of flour to make a semblance of a dough again. This knocks everything else out of whack as everything is in proportion to the flour. It can be done but remember to add more salt in the correct ratio and it's only really good for a shape and quick final proof after this. Won't be good for a long final proof.
What you could have done was dump it into a loaf pan and bake it or turn it into a focaccia (which is practically dumping it into a loaf pan but making dimples in the dough, pouring on some olive oil then adding things like tomato, rosemary etc).
My loaf has a nice crumb structure but it's flat on top due to over proofing where it more than doubled in the fridge which is a why I'd make changes next time. Has a nice flavour though.
...to seeing your crumb.
Thanks for your ideas. I am thinking to try again and stick to the formula's hydration, then cut the bulk ferment time (or lower the temperature instead and keep the time the same - what do you think?). I am concerned that by doing this, I won't have a well risen, bubbly mixture, but guess I have to give it a go. It would be a win for me to get this dough out of the bulk ferment stage without it turning into a pancake!!
I was told on the phone that this flour is 11% protein, but I'm beginning to wonder whether this behaviour might mean the protein level is lower? Or maybe it's a super-active flour with a lot of enzymatic activity?
Do you think it's worth me sifting out the bran and soaking it separately to try and help me get to window pane?
How will you use your backslop of this dough in the next one you make?
I'm planning on making the Borondinsky and a ciabatta NYE. I'm going to reply to your PM to nose about your Italian course, if that's OK ;-)
May I suggest the following...
1: Follow the recipe as it is until the combining of the autolyse, extra water and levain.
2: Add the salt, starter and a little of the remaining water. Squeeze and fold the dough till everything is fully incorporated. While you're doing this add the remainder of the water little by little if you think it needs it. Stop when the dough feels right.
3: Over the next two hours give the dough some stretch and folds every half hour. So four in total.
4: After the last stretch and fold place it in the fridge over night.
5: Come next morning shape the dough while cold (it'll help with the handling) and final proof the dough at room temperature.
6: Bake when 80% risen.
Since you are knocking off 2 hours from the bulk ferment and there's no shaping till the next day you can start the process later. So shift everything forward by about 2-3 hours.
TBH 11% is low but not out of the question to work with. For long ferments a strong gluten is better.
For the piece of dough I've held back what i'll probably do is use it for the next levain build and use when ready. If within 3 days I could have just put it straight into the next dough. But no harm to give it a feed and use it like a starter instead of a Pâte fermentée "type" starter.
Thanks, Abe, I think you have outlined a good plan. I think I'll probably be doing this the weekend after the one coming. Should have eaten all the other breads by then!
If it goes wrong, i will indeed throw it into my loaf tin. I hope it won't though.
The other thought i had was that my starter is too acidic when it goes in. I have been meaning to get some ph paper to test it, as I saw Peter Reinhart mentions the range it should be in in his whole grain book. I'll try to get some before then and try it out.
How does your Red FIfe flour taste? It would be wonderful to be able to do a taste comparison!
Abe - I just ran through this to get it embedded and i have a couple of questions.
What temperature do you think I should proof while I'm doing the stretch and folds?
When you say bake when 80% risen, do you mean 80% increase on what it was upon taking it out of the fridge that morning, or 80% increase on the original size of the dough?
Thanks!
Hi Alison,
I'm afraid I don't have any means of controlling the temps so I just find a warm place for the dough. Since you're only doing a two hour bulk ferment at room temperature you want the ferment to be well on the way. I'd say around 77-78°F which is a good temperature for yeast.
80% risen from when shaped. Even slightly less. Better to err and go under than over. An all bread flour dough needs to be just under doubled and the more wholegrain the less it needs. This is 100% wholegrain. You want some strength in the dough for good oven spring. If you like the dough gently and it pops up straight away then it's under, if the indent stays it's over proofed but if it comes up slowly then it's good to go. I'd say start keeping an eye on it 1 hour 30 minutes after shaping.
My dough was shaped just over an hour ago.
All useful information, thank you. I still have another Shipton loaf to eat (in the freezer). Once that's on it's way down, I'll start planning a second go at this. WIll let you know how it goes.