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Am I overfeeding my inactive rye/ap sourdough starter (The Perfect Loaf)? Help! Pics included.

yellowgingko's picture
yellowgingko

Am I overfeeding my inactive rye/ap sourdough starter (The Perfect Loaf)? Help! Pics included.

Hi everyone, first time poster here. After seeing all your beautiful loaves of bread, I am trying my hand at it but am feeling discouraged. After having read many similar threads, the one thing I have learned is Mini is the resident expert :) and that I am potentially overfeeding my starter, so I am looking for advice!

I tried making a starter last week (Sept 29th) using the instructions from The Perfect Loaf but I'm 7 days in and have seen little to no activity after the first 48 hours. I am wondering if I just need to be more patient or perhaps am overfeeding it given its lack of activity. For context, I am using organic whole grain rye, King Arthur All Purpose, and water heated to 80F given my cold kitchen. I'm calling the mixture I've been making my 'starter'. 

Day 1: 100 g rye flour + 100 g tap water (80 F), rest overnight on the counter, which was maybe mid 60 F.  

Day 2: No activity seen. Kept 75 g of overnight starter and discarded the rest, and added 50 g rye with 50 g KA AP flour, and 125 g water. So the whole thing is 25% starter ,33% flour (1:1 rye:AP), and 42% water. 

Day 3: Some activity; rose about 1" up the jar, which is about a 33% increase. Fed it the same way as Day 2. 

-- Began 2x a day feedings -- 

Day 4: No activity, 3 bubbles on the surface. In the morning, I again used 75g of starter, discarded the rest, fed 50 g rye, 50 g AP, and 125 g water. Repeated about 15 hours later at night. 

Day 5: Same as Day 4

Day 6: No activity and in the morning, fed it like the previous days. I moved it from the counter to inside the oven that measured about 75F. In the evening, still seeing no activity, I fed it again but used water filtered with a Brita and turned the oven light on. 

Day 7 (today): No activity but I saw a dozen bubbles on the surface. The temperature of the air in the oven is now about 77F, but the glass jar is quite warm and my Thermapen read 103F when I stuck it inside the starter. Fearing that's too warm, I have turned the oven light off. 

I've been scouring the threads here and on other sites and could use any advice. If I'm understanding the other threads here, I'm wondering if I shouldn't be feeding and discarding so much, given the lack of activity. It definitely smells and tastes sour. I haven't fed it yet this morning (Day 7). What should I do? Should I stick to twice a day, or go back to once a day with the same ratio of ingredients? Should I keep it on the countertop? Any advice is appreciated!!

Thank you SO much. I have had success with enriched bread and things like english muffins but want to make all the beautiful breads here. 

 

 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Take a look here. Not quite the same stage as yours but the advice is the same. 

Nice that you have joined us on this forum. Persevere and your starter will pull through. Patience is the key. For now take a break and let your starter just do its thing. 

yellowgingko's picture
yellowgingko

Hi Abe, 

Thank you for the tip! I am following your advice on that other thread but am a little lost now. I believe my starter has made from progress (see my post below to Mini's response) but don't know what to do tonight when I can go back to check on it. If you had any suggestions, I would really appreciate it! Thank you so much! 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

I see your starter showed a lot of activity on day 9 and it's now day 10. You haven't fed it again and it's now receded. It's also got an alcoholic smell. Is this correct?

I'd say it's time to increase the feeds and if it shows signs of slowing down then you can always slow down your feeds.

Try a 1:2:2 feed - 20g starter + 40g water + 40g flour. See how it reacts. Store the discard from this feed in the fridge which can be used as back up. 

Should it react well then this is your next feed again in 12-24 hours depending. If it slows down then don't feed again till it picks up.  

yellowgingko's picture
yellowgingko

Hi Abe,

You're exactly right! Thank you for the advice - that sounds good. I'll separate out 20 g starter and add + 40g water + 40g rye flour tonight, which will be ~24 hrs from last feed. The rest of the starter will be considered 'discard' and stored in the refrigerator. 

After I feed it tonight, what's considered 'reacting well', i.e. what type of outcome would call for another feeding in 12 hours vs. another feeding in 24 hours vs. not feeding at all? Is it safe to keep using rye or should I switch to all purpose flour for the feed? Thank you so much! 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Starters do like Rye. Full of goodies. 

At 12 hourly intervals see where it's at.  

Peaked or past its peak then feed again. If it's got some way to go after 12 hours but there's activity then feed after 24 hours. If slower then skip a feed. It's all about reading your starter. 

If it's peaking quickly then up the feed. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

then go back to one feeding per day after a discard. I would put the jar in my sweater pocket to keep it warm with body heat. Taking it out at night (cooling) doubles the time it will take so think of every two days as one day collectively.  I would stick to just rye flour and reduce the amounts in half or more.  It is debatable whether to keep the cooked starter or not so keep it and start up another one staying away from oven lights. You can race them.  Got two pockets?  

First skip a day then 35 g starter, 25g flour and 25g water or whatever it takes to make a nice wettish goop.  With a new starter try not discarding at all and just add a tablespoon of rye flour every day and enough water to keep things wet. Warm on first day and above 75°F on following days.  Slip inside your pocket to keep it warm. Double zipper bag if needed. :). Once it is very active you can introduce wheat flour gradually over several feedings to make a wheat starterif desired.  

I looked over the instructions on perfect loaf and they are good instructions.  The added wheat flour will emphasize changes in the starter, ok, keep it mixed if you like to.  Granted, pockets can be awkward with glass lids.  Could also find that warm spot in the house to keep starters warm.  Got any type of thermos?  Slip in an added jar of warm water.  

yellowgingko's picture
yellowgingko

Hi Mini,

Thank you so much for getting back to me! Let me make sure I understand you correctly. I've checked on my starter and it is thin (as it usually is), with an internal temp of 74F. I've already skipped a day, maybe two if I get to this tomorrow, but for the current (potentially cooked) starter I will:

- Take 35 g of the original 'starter', discarding the rest, and add 25 g rye flour and 25 g water to it. 

- Given my work and container size I will not be able to keep it on my person, but I'll either try turning up the heat in my apartment or making a 'proofer' with a heatpad on low in a sterilite tub and keep the air inside between 75 - 80F. How warm is 'warm on the first day'? The next day, I'll add a tablespoon of rye and a tablespoon of water, and continue doing so for the following days. Is that correct? When do I start discarding? Should I just keep feeding it 1 tbs rye + 1 tbs water for the rest of its life, or should I feed in larger amounts at a certain point? What should I expect to see?

I can also try making a second, new starter using the instructions mentioned in the Pineapple Juice solution you referred to here (2 tbs white whole wheat KA flour + 2 tbs cider for 3 days and 2 oz starter + 1 oz AP flour + 1 oz water for the 4th day, discarding the rest) 

Please let me know if I'm understanding you correctly, and please don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong or give suggestions! Thank you so much! 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Sorry for the delay, life Is keeping me busy, as it does.

starter is thin.   Good, it tends to ferment faster but will not show a lot of rising, so sort of ignore "rising for now". 74° doubles the time it takes to be ready to raise bread.  75° to 80° is good. If you find the water separating from the flour, that just means this will take longer than expected and perhaps you can reduce the water amount when adding flour.  I like to watch the water layer.  With any cultural motion it will start to get cloudy.  If yeast show up, there will be absolutely no clear liquid unless it is alcoholic hootch after the yeast have exhausted all the food given them.

first day warmer.  I go up to 92°F which can easily be done with warm water.  This kick starts the bacteria.  Using cider or canned unsweetened pineapple juice or even orange juice works.  Also any flour will work but whole flours contain more variety of bacteria and yeasts as they contain the outside bran.  There is more than one way to make a starter.  The success depends on getting the right bacteria to lower pH (acify) and then yeast growing in smooth succession.   

Back slopping is the technique of discarding and feeding.  If you are running out of room in a two cup container, most likely you should discard reducing both the growing starter and the amount of fresh food until the yeast have made themselves known.  Until the yeast are growing, extra food isn't needed.  I find it unnecessary to discard when small amounts like a spoonfull of flour is added every day to a 76°F culture.  Add water or skim any growths off the top if you see them.  Mold likes similar conditions and tends to be a race between what gets growing first, mold or yeast.  Should mold show up remove and a generous portion around it right away. Stirring occasionally or swirling the culture usually prevents mold but it can happen.  Then time to start over and make a nice commercial yeast bread to boost your ego.  One you know and not likely to have any problems baking it.  

When yeast does show up, feed flour and less or no water ( thickening it up) so it can make an attempt at rising. If no rising. Give it more time to digest the flour, maybe even wait a day before feeding again maintaining a thicker culture.  Taste before and after feeding so you get to know the taste of growing sourness (acid) in the culture. Do spit it out and don't swallow.  

When yeast do show up, you will have to change the way you feed the culture.  Usually with more flour discarding ( using the discards) and feeding.  In a cool kitchen, you might want to retain a very wet large culture that slowly perks away in a corner. Or you can feed a small one, let it rise partially in warmth and refrigerate and not feeding it while in there.  First get the starter into a predictable feeding routine.  That's when it can be helpful to start weighing the flour and water it is fed.  See how long it takes to peak, give it a few hours to rest and then feed and watch again.  There is lots of room for manipulation but try to keep feedings and temps the same so you can notice changes like speeding up or slowing down.  Soon you will be feeding so you can sleep well at night.  :)

 

yellowgingko's picture
yellowgingko

Hi Mini, thank you so much for all this information! I am very grateful for all the advice and am also looking at the other thread as well. 

Update: 

Day 8: No activity; stirred it and left it on the stove with the stove light on. 

Day 9

- Morning: several small bubbles at the top, though no rise

- Evening: Risen about 30% and smelled strongly of alcohol. Figuring that I could feed it, I stirred it down and tried to follow Abe's early advice on this thread by feeding it with ~30 g warm water and 30 g whole grain rye flour directly into the jar without discarding. It rose quickly (internal temp 74F) and had almost doubled within a couple hours. 

Day 10 (today) 

- Morning: starter had receded to about a 30% increase from last feed (last night). The surface was bubbly. I opted not to feed it as I'm worried I'll be overfeeding it and wait the 24 hours. 

What should I do tonight? Should I discard some and feed with some more rye as you mentioned to thicken it up? Or should I take some out and create a 1:1:1 starter:rye:water (35 g each) or a 1:2:2 as Abe has mentioned?  I will appreciate all specifics - there is so much information! Thank you so much, Mini and Abe!!

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

See my comment above on the next feed. It's thin because the fermented starter has been a higher ratio than fresh flour. As it ferments it gets more watery. Swapping to a 1:2:2 should see an improvement.  Keep going!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and are hungry.  Time to discard and feed.  Or add enough flour and water to make a levain. Save some to feed and keep the starter culture going.

yellowgingko's picture
yellowgingko

Hi Abe and Mini,

Some more progress - I am so excited! Though perhaps I shouldn't get too excited too soon. It's Day 11 today - I separated out 20 g starter last night, fed with 40 g rye and 40 g water. Checked on it this morning ~8 hours later and it had between doubled and tripled in size. 

 Day 11 Morning

I figured this was considered 'peaking' and again separated out 20 g of this starter and fed 1:2:2 with rye (40 g) and warm water (40 g). The rest of it went into the same discard jar as before (with the rest of the previous day's large discard) in the refrigerator - I hope that's okay. Interestingly, the discard in the jar receded a bit. If the starter doubles or more in size by tonight, should I feed it 1:2:2 again? 

Thanks again for your help!

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Same instructions for you here.

You've got the next progression with feeds, an idea of how to use up starter discard and you can start to think about a sourdough bake. There's also an explanation of how to maintain your starter. 

A starter is born.

Peaking is considered the optimal time to use in in the dough and receding means it's reached a stage where the yeast production has peaked and it'll now continue to mature with the tang profile of the starter increasing and it'll need feeding again.

yellowgingko's picture
yellowgingko

Sounds good! If it has risen again tonight I will feed it 1:5:5. I'm following that thread as well and wanted to ask:

Questions about Maintaining my starter:

- Is my starter 'mature' yet? 

-I don't have a Dutch Oven yet so I will probably not be baking a loaf any time soon. Should I refrigerate, as you mentioned here? Is it ready to be refrigerated? If refrigerating, do I keep feeding it 1:5:5, and how often should I feed it?

-What does upping the feed to 1:5:5 do? If I keep the starter at room temp, should I keep feeding it 1:5:5 indefinitely?

-If I'm understanding your comments correctly, should I keep feeding the starter rye flour indefinitely, and use a combination of the starter + all purpose/bread/white whole wheat flour for the leaven when I eventually bake a loaf? 

Questions about using discard:

-As the discard is currently living in the fridge, can I take that and immediately start baking with it (like making the bread you mentioned here or making these crackers)? If making your bread recipe, does it need to go in a Dutch Oven? I only have sheet pans. Is there a recommended temperature/time for baking the bread? 

Thank you so much!! I really appreciate your help in bringing this baby back to life. I hope it's okay if I have more questions on this thread moving forward?

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

It'll just be easier and in its late here....

 

- Is my starter 'mature' yet? 

It is viable but young! It'll benefit from extra feeds. FYI while terminology is somewhat variable "mature" is often referred to fed and peaked. I know what you mean :) but just thought I'd throw that in. I'd say it is mature but it'll continue to grow stronger. 

-I don't have a Dutch Oven yet so I will probably not be baking a loaf any time soon. Should I refrigerate, as you mentioned here? Is it ready to be refrigerated? If refrigerating, do I keep feeding it 1:5:5, and how often should I feed it?

You do not need a Dutch Oven. I bake my loaves freestanding on an oven tray. While DO will produce lovely breads you don't have to bake in one. It'll be ready to refrigerate when you've successfully baked your first loaf but this ties into the first answer, see above, of your starter benefitting from as many feeds as you're willing to do in the first few weeks. But realistically it should do fine in the fridge after a few more good feeds. When in the fridge feed when it needs topping up, it's been a while or it's producing hooch. When at room temperature when it's peaked or if you can't catch it in time then as close to that time as possible. After refrigerating, and you're treating your starter as seed only, then 1:5:5 is not a strict rules. Just make sure it's a healthy feed. 

-What does upping the feed to 1:5:5 do? If I keep the starter at room temp, should I keep feeding it 1:5:5 indefinitely?

bigger feeds and allowing it to peak builds the yeast population and therefore strength. 1:5:5 is an example of a good feed but not a strict rule. No you do not have to do this indefinitely. Your starter just needs food and it doesn't care exactly how much. It just needs to be kept happy.

-If I'm understanding your comments correctly, should I keep feeding the starter rye flour indefinitely, and use a combination of the starter + all purpose/bread/white whole wheat flour for the leaven when I eventually bake a loaf? 

You don't have to do this either but rye is good for starters and it's hardy. You can feed your starter any flour and build the levain more geared towards the recipe. 

Questions about using discard:

-As the discard is currently living in the fridge, can I take that and immediately start baking with it (like making the bread you mentioned here or making these crackers)? If making your bread recipe, does it need to go in a Dutch Oven? I only have sheet pans. Is there a recommended temperature/time for baking the bread? 

The example bread recipe I have given is just to use up your discard. Use it straight in the bread if it's been a a week or two in the fridge. The yeast will do most of the leavening and the discard will add flavour. See above for the Dutch Oven advice and I do my breads at 230°C. 

Thank you so much!! I really appreciate your help in bringing this baby back to life. I hope it's okay if I have more questions on this thread moving forward?

My pleasure and no problem at all.

yellowgingko's picture
yellowgingko

Again, thank you so much for all your through responses Abe! I guess I should be patient about feeding it since it's not even 2 weeks old. I just really want to start making things like the pretty country loaves and other boules I see here. As to knowing when it's ready, I guess I should be able to find examples of successful loaves on this forum here. 

I gave the starter its first 1 (10 g) :5:5 feed last night - again, the mixture was quite thick. I'm not able to track my starter through the day but noticed it had about doubled in size within 4 hours of feeding:

I checked on it this morning (Day 12, 12 hours after last feed) and I expected it to grow more given the large feed and noticed it had stayed more or less the same (see below).

Is that a problem? I kind of expected it to grow more (perhaps triple or quadruple in size) like Giorgella's here but I couldn't tell if they had discarded before feeding or fed directly into the jar. I discarded down and fed again this morning, but I'm wondering if perhaps I should have waited given it had only doubled. Please advise!

 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

That's it's peaked and begun to fall. It's dipping but it would have peaked higher. Your jar also widens so your starter will have not bubbled up as high as it would have in a straight jar. 

What does it smell like? 

yellowgingko's picture
yellowgingko

Hi Abe and Mini,

I wanted to update you on my progress! My starter is just about a month old now, though I admit I haven't always been feeding it twice a day as I should. I baked my first tin loaf over the weekend using this method, but I cut everything in half to make 1 8x4 loaf: 

Recipe

726g Bread Flour
32g Whole Spelt Flour
16g Whole Rye Flour
486g Water
17g Salt
100g Starter @ 100% Hydration (50g Bread Flour, 50g Water)

Baker’s Percentages for Final Dough (numbers are rounded):

Bread Flour — 94% (6% prefermented)
Whole Spelt — 4%
Whole Rye — 2% <-- I think this number would be higher since I've only been feeding my starter 1:5:5 with rye 
Water — 65%
Salt — 2%

This is supposed to be a quicker recipe than the typical boule as there is no overnight or refrigerated fermentation. I definitely messed some things up and maybe you can help me understand what I did wrong. The bulk fermentation step (after mixing ingredients, a 1 hr rest, and minimal kneading) was supposed to take 2-4 hours at room temp and I let it sit for 5. I know you're supposed to watch the dough, not the clock, but even after 5 hours there seemed to be minimal change. I had put it in an off oven with a damp towel over it and the oven light on. In fact, the dough spread and it looked like it had even gotten smaller (before vs. after bulk proofing). I didn't know what to do and decided to move on --> should I have waited ?

After that, you 'pre-round' everything into an oval like shape, let it rest for 20 minutes, and plop into a pan for 1 - 3 hours; I used an 8x4 with wax paper. The oven was not particularly warm with just the light on, though at one point the internal temperature reached mid-80s F. The dough had make very little progress 4.5 hours later (before and after) so I waited for another 4.5 hours. It barely rose above the pan but had definitely gotten bigger.  At this point, I was worried I had overproofed it. It was very puffy in a delicate way. The dimple from my poke test didn't seem to spring back. Scoring it was difficult, as the skin caught on the blade. I baked it at 425 for 15 minutes with steam and it came out looking like this. --> How much should I have expected it to expand? 

Below are some pictures of the crumb. Not bad for a first try, I think - it was chewy and tasted mildly sour though a bit dense. 

 

Anyway, I would love to know what you think! Is it underproofed, overproofed, is the loaf too small, or the crumb too tight? Should I have waited longer during the bulk ferment? What is a good indicator that it is finished proving? Given how long everything (surprisingly) took, I'd love to know what I should change to make it better next time.  In all, though, I'm just happy it rose. Thanks for reading! 

yellowgingko's picture
yellowgingko

Just a note - the recipe I pasted above is from the original blog post made in a larger Pullman pan. I cut everything in half for my small loaf 8x4 loaf pan and used my rye starter. 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

You've made a lovely looking sandwich loaf. Can't find any fault with the results. Most importantly is are you happy with it and do you enjoy the taste?

Your starter certainly works and all I can say is "practice, practice, practice". The more you maintain your starter, care for it and use it the more you'll become familiar with the whole process and how each stage is meant to look and feel.

Carry on!

yellowgingko's picture
yellowgingko

Hi Abe,

Thanks for getting back to me, and thank you so much - I could not have done it without you. I do like the taste. Or perhaps my pride is getting in the way of my tastebuds ;)

The bread itself is denser than I would like. Would longer rises in the refrigerator help with this? I am not sure how to tell when the bread is ready to be shaped or baked, or how much the bread should rise each time. This frustrates me the most as I always feel chained to my apartment because I have no idea how long the bread will take. Should I keep practicing the same recipe?

Two more things: 

1)  You mentioned before that my starter is ready to refrigerate once I've baked my first successful loaf. Do you think my starter is ready to go in the fridge? If so, perhaps I could simply feed it once a week when it's not in use, and resume feeding at room temperature the day before I plan to bake?

2) You also said you bake your loaves free form. How can I do this as well? Should I purchase a baking stone/steel? I don't have a cover for my bread either. Any guidance on your techniques would be put to use!

Thank you for all of your help! 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

A bread that's baked in a loaf pan will have a tighter crumb then a free standing loaf or if it's baked in a dutch oven, where it has space to expand, because it's more restricted. Having said that getting the timings just right should still give you a nice bread that isn't too dense. For the fermentation, getting to know how the dough should look and feel at each stage when it's ready will come with practice. The more you care for and use your starter the better you'll be able to judge the timing.

I think your starter is ready to be refrigerated. If I were you I'd keep a lower hydration starter so it can last longer between feeds (not essential though but just an idea - you don't have to do this if you're happy with the hydration you're using) and keep only a small amount. For example...

Give you starter a feed like so:

  • 10g starter
  • 40g water (for 80% hydration) or 50g water (for 100% hydration)
  • 50g flour

Allow this to bubble up and when it's active but not past it's peak (so about doubled) then refrigerate it. It should last a week or two before it needs another feed.

When it comes to baking take off some starter and build an off-shoot starter - a levain - and build according to the requirements of the recipe. So you are keeping your starter as a seed only and building more purposeful starters - which might be to a different hydration or flour - for the recipe you are following. If your starter is 80% hydration then take that into account. So if you use 18g starter that will = 8g water + 10g flour.

When your starter runs low, or it's been a week or two since the last feed, or hooch starts to form then it's time to re-feed your starter as above. You can keep as much starter as you like so you find a balance of how much to build for your needs so that it can last a little while in the fridge but not too long that you find yourself needing to discard too much when it comes to feeding. If carefully done you shouldn't need to discard at all. You'll find how much you generally use over a week or two before it runs low and you just need to top it up again.

I'd say find a recipe you like and practice it over and over again till you start getting a feel for the whole process.

For free form you'll need a basket, or substitute, to proof your dough and while a baking tray will suffice (I use one) if you have a dutch oven or baking stone that'll be better.

My pleasure and feel free to ask more questions.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Use a part to build a levain and feed a part to maintain.  :)

yellowgingko's picture
yellowgingko

Hi Abe and Mini,

I just got back (Day 12, evening, 12 hours after feed) to come check on it and again it's a bit more than doubled. Time to feed at 1:5:5 again? 

I took a whiff and was surprised that it doesn't smell as alcoholic as before - yesterday morning it was like sticking my nose in bottle of wine or liquor. It's kind of a softer alcoholic smell, a bit like wet flour. I think some of my overnight refrigerated bread doughs have smelled more strongly of alcohol. Not sure if this is good or bad or impacts whether I should feed tonight! 

I was also wondering, now that my starter is quite like a small airy paste, how this is different than when I had a lot of rather liquid starter. The jar was certainly easier to clean then! Will this really be enough to bake bread with? 

Thanks again!!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

1:5:5.  Then weigh what is left.  Looks like enough for a small loaf.  If not, add a little flour and water to the starter and give it a few hours to ferment or add some of yesterday's chilled discard to top it off.  Got a recipe handy?

You should notice that given the same temp and ingredients, the starter will peak earlier after each consecutive feeding until it seems to repeat itself consistently.  When It gets very predictable you can tuck the starter into the fridge when it is half way risen to "double."  That will give you a break until the following bake.  Let it chill at least 3-4 days before using.  It can sit a week or two easily in the fridge without feeding it.  Then just remove a tablespoon or two from this "mother" 12 hours before mixing up dough for a levain (more starter) to fit a recipe. It looks like right now the 12 hour (approx) feedings is working out nicely.  Even if the starter peaks sooner, you can wait until about 12 hours to feed.   If the temperatures drop, feed less food to keep it peaking between 8-12 hours.  Waiting for the fed starter to peak before feeding is a good basic rule to go by.  Giving the peaked starter a few hours after it peaks help restore the bacteria levels high enough for the culture to defend itself from microscopic invasion every time you fed it.  The flour contains lots of organisms that wait to devour wet flour but if your culture is agressive enough, they don't have a chance.  If you ever wonder if the starter should be fed, Better to wait and err on the side of underfeeding than overfeeding.  Taste the starter, smell the starter and wait for those clues that it has fermented.

Rye starters without any wheat will loose gluten strength in about 8 hours no matter what the reasonable temperature, it's the nature of a rye matrix, it just falls apart.  Stirring will get another small rise but usually after 8 hours it falls flat and releases all the gas very unlike a wheat matrix.  It will also stiffen more when cooled. It tends to rise and have a stiff dome until something disturbs it like poking. A rye starter will hollow out if firm enough (like a dough consistency) whereas a fully functional very liquid rye starter will release gas bubbles sooner and look flat.  Taste and aroma testing help determine fermentation.  

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

that two posts and threads are dealing with similar problems or situations, good to follow them for inspiration.  Have you been following this post?

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/57532/rye-starter-died-5th-day#new

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Because rye is a natural glue and a pain to clean up if it dries on tools and utensils, I suggest never letting it dry on utensils.  Don't let.rye dough build up on the work surfaces. Keep things wet or rub with AP flour and trash (or compost) scrapings.  Drop that starter stirring spoon (or fork) into a dish with cold water until you get to it and soak starter jars.  Wash by hand in cold water until all traces of rye flour are gone.  

Keeping two starter jars using one while the other is on standby is handy.   

Save vegitable nets for clean up or use a brush that is small and easy to rinse and keep clean.