Ideal Proofing Temp???
First I have to say what a fantastic site The Fresh Loaf is. A Bread Geek's dream.
Got into bread baking way too late in life but enjoying the questionable results.
I'm a former Electronics Engineer so I tend to go off into the exact time, temp, weight, phases of the moon..., weeds too often as elastic, soft, springy...are terms I have difficulty quantifying with only books and YouTube videos as my teachers.
My question is, "Is there a universal recommended proofing temp for all breads or does it vary with flour types, hydration % etc.
As I think my oven's proofing temp is way too high 95-100F, I have built my own proofing box and I can keep it +/- 1 degree F, and can regulate the humidity, but I am not sure if, lets say 78F, is ideal for all breads using AP, Bread Flour, Rye {my favorite}, Whole Wheat, Sourdough {not much success other than Rye}.
It is rare when I end up with a nicely risen bread but 2 out of 5 might equal what I have seen, read about.
Had moderate success at 78F proofing temps with No Knead, and always a success with KAF's French Country Loaf.
Thanks,
Mike
Short answer is no.
Long answer is still no because it depends on what you want to accomplish. Longer fermentation equals better flavour but ferment too long and you end up with flat loaves or soupy, unmanageable dough.
As tou know temp affects fermentation time, as does the grain you use, the amount of levain and so on. That’s why we say watch the dough and not the clock. And that comment is also ambiguous. I thought I had it figured out but some of my loaves were coming out flatter than I liked. I finally figured out that I was bulk fermenting too long and that’s one of the reasons why I wasn’t getting the oven spring I wanted.
You will need to experiment with your ingredients, Levain and so on to figure out what works best for you and your bread.
Totally unhelpful! I know! ?
NO, that was not unhelpful but in fact very helpful. I have, with No Knead breads, used the long cold fermentation but during the time the dough was removed from the fridge, I had it in my proofing box.
I do like the flavor of longer, cold fermentation except I have yet to make a true {???} sourdough that I liked. Usually too sour.
I'll rely less on absolute temps for proofing and try to wrap my engineering mind around over/under proofed.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
and somehow, the breads I make just have a slight tang. You might want to check out some of my breads on TFL. I try to be pretty detailed on how I make them. Feel free to sub out ingredients if you don’t have them, I do that all the time.
My room temp is 72-73 F and it is 82 F in my oven with the lights on and the door cracked open.
Thanks Danni3II3, I'll be sure to check out as much as possible your breads on TFL.
Here is where the smiley face goes, because the answer is no in general terms. The answer is yes when you have experimented long enough to discover the ideal times and temperatures for the formula you are making. So as you 'practice', take notes of time and temperature. When the loaf turns out awesome, hover around those data points but vary one and then the other to hone in on the best possible result. The advice I give most often to newer bakers is to make bread every week at least. Give it away if you aren't too embarrassed by it. The recipient probably knows less about bread than you do and will almost always appreciate the gift. Within 6 months your skill and knowledge will have greatly increased, as will the quality of your bread.
The magic of your proofer is that when you have discovered the best times and temps, you can replicate awesome bread each time (with of course occasional failures that no one can ever completely explain).
Now to really important matters. I am in the process of finishing my proofer box and I am not the only one who would VERY MUCH appreciate all of the details of design and development involved in yours. So please share all that you are willing to share in that regard.
Best of luck,
Lee
Lee, thanks for your thoughtful reply.
Regarding my proofing box. I use a nice Coleman ice chest {brand doesn't matter as long as it is big enough and insulated well enough}.
I then purchase a Sonoff TH10 which is $14.90 from Amazon or direct from Itead {China} for $7.50}. This device simply acts as a switch for a 100 watt light bulb. Works for 120 or 240 VAC.
This is very simple to wire up. I cut an extension cord in half and connected one end to the Sonoff's input and the other half to the light bulb. You don't need the female end of the extension cord.
Also required is a Sonoff Si7012 temp/humidity sensor. {just plugs into the side of the TH10} $10.00 from Amazon.
I then wired to the Sonoff a 100Watt light bulb. The Sonoff, simply detects the temperature inside the Ice Chest and turns the light on/off and keeps it within 1 degree. You also get a reading on the humidity and if I need more rH I just place a pan of warm water in the Ice Chest.
This device connects to your smart phone and you can set the high/low temp range right from your phone using a FREE app found here for iPhone or Andrioid: https://sonoff.itead.cc/en/ewelink
The nice thing about using the Ice Chest is I can take out the light bulb and Sonoff in under 10 seconds and use the Ice Chest for its original purpose.
I've used 16 of the Sonoff devices all over my house to automate my lights and the Sonoff TH10 is great for temperature control. Never had a failure.
I have built a cabinet into which I put a wooden rack that holds 4 half sheets. I am controlling temperature and humidity with a Raspberry Pi. My heat source is light bulbs also, and a cold mister for humidity. I will log t/h data, send notifications of variances outside of specified limits, of fermentation time limits, etc. It's a long term project not quite accomplished. I hope to finish it this fall or winter. Then I hope to build the new cabinet to fix the problems I learned about while doing the first. Eventually I intend to build one with refrigeration so I can do cold fermentation as well and automatically change to warm/final bulk fermentation. Lots of hopes and plans. It would be easier to accomplish all of this if I just had a couple of days between Saturday and Sunday all to myself.
Sounds like a great project. I also have switched to the Raspberry Pi {for this and many projects} but thought the basic Sonoff TH10/EweLink would work for a wider audience as it is so simple.
I wanted to get off the China based EweLink server so the Raspberry Pi running Node-Red works fantastic.
I'm much better at electronics & programming than baking but I have not caused anyone to die from my bread.
I use a short string of 7W Christmas tree bulbs to keep my outdoor storage (21 cu. ft. freezer w/Inkbird control) above 32F. The smaller bulbs diffuse the heat, lower fire risk (I hope!) and provide redundancy -- if one bulb goes out, the others can carry the load until I notice and replace it.
I love the redundancy in your Christmas tree bulb approach. 14 or so bulbs would equal my single 100W bulb. When it dies, I will replace it with your solution.
Mike,
For wheat-based breads Hamelman recommends a temp between 76-78 degrees F. With ryes, a slightly higher temp: 81-83 F. If you are doing a slow proof under refrigeration, or retarding, you will get more sour loaves using levain as the bacteria produce acetic acid at lower temps (and milder lactic at higher temps).
Larry
Thank you very much Larry! That was what I was looking for as a baseline, knowing fully well if I wanted to alter certain profiles in my bread I could deviate from those recommendations.
I like the taste which develops in many of the long fermentations as long as they don't become too sour.
I love vinegar and drink it with water everyday but don't really like that profile in my bread.
I wonder with a less sour dough if some of the claimed health benefits of sourdough still apply.
Mike,
Whether you favor sourdough with a tang or no tang, the benefits remain, including longer freshness. The French do not like San Francisco type sourdoughs because they think the sourness overwhelms the natural wheatiness of the bread. To each his/her own! If you do same day baking and still detect too much sourness, I’d think about reducing the amount of levain to perhaps 18%-20% of dough weight. It may increase your fermentation & final proof times, but you won’t detect any sourness at all.
Thanks once more!
I don't have an issue on sourness on same day bakes without a starter but never got the hang of something to my liking with a sourdough starter other than my Rye Starter {which according to some literature should be more sour, go figure.} when used to make the Rye bread I learned to make at the King Arthur School.
Been keeping that rye starter (50/50) for two years now and it makes a nice rye bread.
I think the baseline information you provided, will allow me to find the "sweet spot" in sourdough for my taste.
I have the same background as you do and also like to view my baking journey as a set of scientific experiments. Along that journey I stumbled onto the Rule of 240, which might help add some repeatability and consistency to your own experiments (i.e. follow the scientific method). Have fun!
https://wp.me/P3QqUs-2jJ
I think one thing to consider is the question itself. If we are talking about using a levain there are two fermentations going on. You find many places the graph of the activity of yeast and lactobacillus by temperature. So ideal for the yeast dominance, lacto dominance? balanced. Each of these would produce different flavors and results, which is one reason I don't think the question can be answered as asked.
I tend to notice...
A basic relationship I tend to notice is that the more sifted wheat in the bread dough, the higher the dough can be proofed (temps within reason.). Rye matrix automatically is softer and stretches more a few degrees higher than wheat does, it will also stiffen sooner than wheat when lowering the same temps. Cold dough gives off very little aroma.
Commercial yeast without the bacteria colonies like sourdough, live yoghurt, etc. can proof at higher temp ranges. Sourdoughs proof faster for yeast in the lower ranges, in the mid to upper 70's unless more sour is desired. Sour increases depending on your sourdough culture at lower temps and at upper temps for different reasons but good to know it happens. The more wheat combined with rye the less buffering the rye can manage so a sour tastes will be stronger as dough quickly tips toward sour during the ferment.
Three kinds of fermenting going on, one is most familiar yeast making gas to raise the loaf, another is the breaking down of the gluten or dough matrix caused by the enzymes (varies with flour) and the third is the bacterial action. The temperature will affect these processes differently depending on the type of flour and any prefermented ingredients as these three influence each other. So the recipe and the outcome desired greatly determines the proofing temperature or temperatures. A levain rise or a bulk rise can also be a different temp than the final rise.
Another thing to consider is the amount of "wet time" on the dough. Many chemicals change during fermentation and some changes are desired for health reasons. Proofing slowly at cool temps vs fast at warm temps can be beneficial to the person eating the bread. The more whole flours in the dough, the longer the "wet time" should be to break down the self defense chemicals in the grain.