Dough practically metled after bulk rise (possibly becuase of hot oven in the kitchen?)
Hi everyone, I was preparing a Pain de Campagne from FWSY which is at 78% hydration. The recipe calls for a long 5 hour fermentation with stretch and folds in the first two hours. The stretch and folds were going well and I could even pick up the dough and flip it in the bowl. After the 5 hours were done though, when I flipped the dough slowly onto a floured surface, it was impossible to shape. It stuck to the surface regardless of flour and gluten webs stretched between the surface and the dough every time I tried to fold it to start the shaping. It was certainly much worse to handle than it was at the last fold. It was like pancake batter. Even slap and folds were completely useless. I know this isn't because of the hydration because I've kneaded an 80% ciabatta dough before successfully with slap and folds. I would have been able to knead this dough as it was by the last fold before the next 3 hours of rising. I really don't understand what happened. I was following the book to the letter. The only variable that could have affected the rise was that I baked another loaf in the same kitchen during the rise in those 3 hours after folding, but I don't know the science of how that could have affected it. Please help! It hurts to have to throw this away and I want to try to avoid doing that again.
"I really don't understand what happened. I was following the book to the letter".
This looks like over fermentation to me. You've handled high hydration before with no issues so we can rule that out. So what's left is timing. Five hours for the starter/temperature is too long.
Now there are two ways to tackle this. One way would be to simply cut down on the ferment time erring on the side of caution. The first two hours seem to go very well so it's within the next three hours where things begin to go south. Perhaps add-in and extra fold or two within the first two hours and then watch the dough carefully! Perhaps give it 1 - 1.5 hours rest before shaping and then allow it to proof to 80%.
Or after the first two hours refrigerate the dough for 8 hours then shape and final proof. So you could do the levain build in the morning, start the dough early evening etc.
P.s. have you tried another sourdough recipe with success?
Thanks Abe for your reply. Adding more folds and watching the dough carefully are great advice. In terms of watching the dough carefully, how should I know if it's completed its bulk fermentation? My guess would be size, and in the book, it's stated to allow it to ferment to 2.5 times it's size. What do you think about that?
In terms of refridegrating the dough for 8 hours then shape. That also sounds like a great idea. The book calls for a really long refridgerated proof of 12-15 hours. A refridgerated bulk ferment shouldn't affect that right?
Also this recipe is a hybrid levain dough. I just thought I'd throw that out there.
I've had relative success with one sourdough recipe at ~55% hydration. It didn't rise much and crumb is relatively dense but there's a good amount of holes and the flavour is great. That one was much easier to shape and handle as would be expected by its hyrdration. One weird thing was that it would be really hard to scrape out of the bowl, but then after a slap and fold or two it would be just a bit stickier. Looks like I have a lot more to learn about low hydration doughs!
A few years ago David Snyder (dmsnyder) baked several breads from FWSY and posted reports (complete with photos and thorough descriptions) on his blog. The postings contain all kinds of instruction, including his comments about fermentation and proofing and how to tell when things have gone too short, just right, and too far. You would greatly enjoy reading them, and if you read them carefully (and especially thoughtfully) you will feel as if you are in a baking class with a truly helpful instructor. (I plan to go back an re-read some of them after having browsed a few before writing this comment. I need to review his remarks and insights.)
So go to the dmsnyder blog, look for his FWSY bakes, and dive in.
Thanks a lot for the great advice WatertownNew! It's always good to look at documented experiences and lessons learned from experiences bakers. The way you described how it feels to read them and feeling like it's a class with makes this an opportunity I simply can't pass up. I appreciate your reply!
How it looks. I think that's what Wendy has already said. Not much more for me to add so I'll just reiterate.
When the dough looks aerated and is billowy then it's done. Two words you want to remember for measuring a bulk ferment. It might not necessarily have even doubled but it's full of bubbles. Takes time to get a feel for it but comes with practice.
Refrigerating at the bulk ferment stage should be good to prevent you from over proofing the dough. So when a dough has been shaped then refrigerated but over proofs, as long as their is life in the dough left, it can be reshaped and proofed again. But refrigerating at the bulk ferment stage is easier as far as keeping an eye on the final proof which will then be done at room temperature. So getting the gluten formation done and the fermentation on the way then refrigerating before the end of the bulk ferment will give you more time and you'll be able to control it more so.
His hybrids are fine but I find the yeast is optional. I've left the yeast out in his hybrid recipes and as long as you read the dough it works.
Thanks for the great advice Abe! I feel like my intuition is improving just by reading it and understanding the characteristics of the dough when it's properly risen and the effect of temperature on the control of the different stages. Controlling the proofing sounds much mire difficult than controlling fermentation so I completely understand what you mean here. This is really great to know.
I'm wondering though, aside from controlling the proof better and not risking to overferment, would there be a difference in two loafs made from the same dough but with the rise and proof time and refridgerations flipped. As in, as long they both would have similiar times in and out of the fridge but at different stages, would that make the loaf characteristics different?
When I use the word proofing I mean after shaping. So when I say refrigerating at the bulk ferment stage will help you avoid over proofing I mean that you can keep an eye on the final proofing.
The reason why I say refrigerate at the bulk ferment stage is because I think this is where it all went south for you. It was over done. But refrigerating at the final proof stage, as long as the bulk ferment is done well, has it advantages too.
In the summer when it's very warm and the ferment needs to be controlled more so then refrigeration at the bulk ferment is a good idea. In the cooler months then at the final proofing is fine and baking from cold helps with high hydration doughs as it's easier to manage and it helps oven spring. Both ways will help to improve flavour as to which one will do more so I think there's no difference.
Of course refrigeration at all is not absolutely necessary. You can adjust the starter for the warmer/cooler months and watch the dough of course. But it does allow for a good fail safe and helps with flavour.
Your dough was so over fermented (not technically correct to say over proofed as that means allowing it to rise to a certain level after shaping) that it basically turned to starter. Refrigeration will help you while you learn to read the dough.
This makes a ton of sense and is a good lesson on adapting to the seasons/weather. I can only assume that bulk refridgeration can also help with shaping since the dough would be very cold. And as you say, refrigeration will help me learn to read the dough (hopefully with less failure) because of the widening of the success window. Thanks a ton Abe, I hope your help as well as everyone else's translates to good baking karma in the future!
If this ever happens again, you can add a bunch more flour (and maybe some more water and a touch more salt) to the goop and just make more dough. :)
Many of us find that the timings in FWSY are way off the mark for our home kitchens, and that over-fermenting and over-proofing are common if you follow the recipe to the letter. It's not just you! Follow your instincts instead.
Thanks a lot Lazy Loafer for your reply! I'm really glad to hear that all is not lost when the dough goops. I'll remember that if my dough goops again, even though I'll be trying my best to not have it do that!
Thanks so much for sharing the fact that the timings are way off the mark with me. You have potentially saved many of my doughs and hours to come, if not from overfermentation (fool me twice, shame on me), then certainly from overproofing. In terms of fermentation, do you aim for 2.5 times the original volume as Ken says? And for proofing, do you find the finger poke test effective when the dough is proofing in the fridge? Also, what's your average fermentation time for his recipes that call for 5 hours total?
Hmmm, hard to say. I understand this was a hybrid dough (with levain and dry yeast), which will affect timings and such as well. As per volume, I do ferment in a clear, straight sided container but don't usually measure changes in volume. It's more that I look for the bubbles in the dough and the amount of jiggle to tell when the bulk ferment might be done. For something like, say, Country Blonde I will often ferment it overnight in my cool basement, which seems to work.
I don't often do final proof in the fridge. I prefer to watch the dough to make sure it doesn't over-proof. Finger poke will probably be different for cold dough but you should be able to see how much it has risen. If it has risen a lot and seems very fragile (very jiggly and soft), or looks wet and shiny, it is probably over-proofed. Bake it anyway (if you can get it out of the basket) just in case it's okay. :)
Ahh I see. I'll take the look of the dough into account more then.
When you proof it out of the fridge, does the taste develop differently? I'd probably bake any dough that I can shape even if it's over proofed put aside. Was never one to take the sunk cost fallacy to heart when food is on the line. Thanks for the pointers on what over proofed dough looks like.
As someone who's baked infinitely more from the book than I have, which levain (hybrid or pure) recipe do you recommend?
Well, as someone who rarely proofs in the fridge I can't really say if it tastes different or not! I think fermenting (whether the bulk or the final proof) in the fridge offers more time for the bacteria in the dough to develop various flavour compounds, and probably other chemical changes to take place, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to tell you exactly what they are. I'd suggest you experiment by making two batches of identical dough and retarding the bulk on one and the final proof on the other. Then report back! :)
Recommend a recipe? That depends entirely on what kind of bread you like. I bake both the Country Blonde and Country Brown quite a bit. I also regularly bake Harvest Bread with Poolish, and Field Blend #2, and have done the Overnight White. So, all different kinds, and I like them all. I will reduce the hydration level if I feel like it, and don't follow his levain method particularly (though I do use his percentages for levain builds). And I ferment and proof to my own schedule. :)
That sounds like an interesting experiment to do. It'd certainly be good to figure out the magnitude of the developed flavors as well as i they're desirable or not. I'll report back if and when I end up doing it.
Given that you like so many, I'm glad to have bought the book then since it has so many good options! Looks like I'll need to bake a ton of bread to be able to riff on recipes and timings like you do, because at this point, I've generally been sticking to recipes without using my instincts too much. His schedules are definitely not the easiest to follow so knowing that you're fermenting and proofing on your own schedule is pretty reassuring.