The Fresh Loaf

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Is there such a thing as too much steam?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Is there such a thing as too much steam?

The short answer. Yes!

I’m the kind of guy that thinks, “if a little is good, then more must be better” :) I think I managed to prove myself wrong today.

I am working on a new project to better duplicate commercial steam in a home oven. Below is my lastest iteration. The cover fits closely over the stone. I am using a STEAM MACHINE to inject steam into the top center of the cover. Today, I think I injected way too much steam, causing the loaves to go slack from too much moisture. More testing is in store.

The image below shows in inside of the cover. The pipe that is threaded into the steam port and works as a temporary handle for install and removal.

Always thinking...

Dan

 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

That loaf in the foreground looks like a sculpture Dali would happily have signed :-D

Thanks for the experiment!

Carole

tgrayson's picture
tgrayson

Your technique is how I do it, although your equipment is more sophisticated than needed. I use an inverted 6" hotel pan with a hole drilled in the side for the steam injection. I use this device for the steam:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0040ZCRZC/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I see it's not available now, but it was only $25. This looks pretty similar:

https://www.amazon.com/PurSteam-Handheld-Pressurized-Cleaner-Accessory/dp/B06XHXFHWG/ref=sr_1_6?s=vacuums&ie=UTF8&qid=1532217268&sr=1-6&keywords=steam...

I've never had a problem with oversteaming...I shoot about 15 seconds of steam into the pan at the start and leave the cover on for about 10 minutes.

 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Hey Dan, first off - yeah baby how cool  ! And btw replied to your message before seeing this.

If cutting back the steam doesn't help, I wonder if a snug fit over the stone is actually a detriment. consider this - door is open and you then trap a little atmosphere that's probably a good 100F+ shy of ideal baking temp. That's ok in a normal world but with stainless steel surrounding I just wonder what the actual temp is on the inside. Can you get some telemetry ?

also consider huge deck ovens take a few seconds blast of steam. Me thinks the first loaves cooked via steam alone with some assistance from the stone and may need some gaps to promote convection - the steam might even condensing on the dough surface.

Ya know what works pretty well - upturned aluminum turkey basters and a few damp lava rocks - the aluminum is so thin and such a great heat conductor it's like it isn't there yet it traps steam.

Thats a nice rig - Did you build this yourself ?

 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I gave (3) 15 second steam injections @ 6 minute intervals. I now know that you can over do the steam. LOL The dough must have been swimming in humidity. Unfortunately steam vapor is not visible in a hot oven.

The unit is built from 90 gauge aluminum. Any lighter and I was concerned about warping. I do weld aluminum in my shop, but sent this out to be built. The guy only charged me $65, including materials and he had a TIG welder. My MIG is for more heavy duty work.

I used aluminum for a number of reasons. It is super conductive, lightweight, and easily fabricated. stainless is expensive, heavy, and difficult to work. Too bad I couldn’y use copper :(    Cost prohibitive.

You bring up a valid concern that I had not considered. Fortunately I can run a thermal data log within the vessel. This info should prove or disprove the concern.

Keep thinking, Geremy... And let me know what you come up with.

Danny

kendalm's picture
kendalm

it looks like stainless - I've dome a fair amount of metal work (my father has a small metal shop) and perhaps I missed something in the post. Yeah aluminum is hard to weld alright - the guy did a nice job. You may like to consider hitting up docdough if hrs still active - the resident scientist (helped me alot getting my little gas oven to perform)

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

do is spritz the dough cover and nit inject any steam at all :-)  One 15 second blast was plenty but experimenting is how you figure out what you need to do with this fine contraption.  Don Bggs would kill for this thing:-)  Lucy wants one now but she knows we don't buy any bread equipment we can't get at Goodwill for a buck on Dollar Thursdays!

I over steamed a bread one time in an oval Magnaware Aluminum Turkey Roaster.  Like you it was the first time I used it.  It came with an aluminum trivet to lift the meat off the bottom of the roaster so I put a cup of water in the bottom and the bread on the trivet thinking the mire the steam the better also like you and mine came out even more puddled than yours did.  Turns out no water required and a quick spritz is all it needs.   Now it makes really nice bread.

You really need a stainless or aluminum injection pipe for this baby to up the looks another notch because the rest of the work is really great and it looks so professional.  Now what we need is a quantum computer AI robot to do all the work and mix drinks for watching:-)

Happy Constructing Dan

albacore's picture
albacore

Please keep us updated on progress - you could be onto a winner!

I did start to think along similar lines, but utilising the sides and maybe the back of the oven as part of the steaming enclosure, so I would just need a top, bottom and front. And then I thought, surely it's better to consider the whole oven cavity as the steaming enclosure?

The only problem is that domestic ovens appear to have a vent, which will tend to dissipate any steam that you inject. I've managed to locate the vent on my Bosch oven and I'm considering what options I might employ to deal with it.

Lance

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

As of now this data is live. See notes below to describe actions taking place on the timeline. Thermal Comparison HotSteam vs RT Spray https://share.fireboard.io/9E85B2

Here are the notes. This concludes the Steam vs RT water spray test. Next I am going to test bake a 100g, 200g, and finally a 400g loaf. Each loaf will be baked separately and the oven will be allowed to regain heat before proceeding to the next bake. This is an experiment suggested by Geremy, aka KendalM. He maintains that home ovens can struggle to maintain consistent heat with large anmounts of dough are loaded at once. Comapring the thermal data for each of the 3 loaves should be interesting. The probes will be left in the same positions as the earlier test. all doughs are sitting in a retarder @ 44F to make things as equal as possible.

 

Therma Comparison of Steam Injection vs RT Water Spray

 

Probe1 positioned 1” above the baking stone and inside the cover

Probe2 positioned just inside the injection port, located front face, top, center

 

Test commence 12:38PM

1:56 inject 5 seconds steam, but forgot to purge water first will re-run test

2:15 spray 5 seconds RT water

2:55 inject 5 sec steam

3:09 spray 5 sec RT water 

3:48 inject 5 sec steam

4:30 spray 5 sec RT water 

Danny

texasbakerdad's picture
texasbakerdad

Pardon my ignorance, what does RT mean?

texasbakerdad's picture
texasbakerdad

What is the oven's temperature set too?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The oven is set to 500F for this test and the following one. I plan to make a new post with documentation and images, maybe by tomorrow.

The final test in to run is to bake 3 separate loaves. 100g, 200g, and 400g. The goal of this one is to see how dough mass affects home oven heating. Eventually, they will be compared against larger loaves.

It is a darn good thing I am retired ;-))

Dan

texasbakerdad's picture
texasbakerdad

How is your room temperature water injected (RT water coming from steam cleaner, or spray bottle, or something else)? And how do you control the volume of delivered water?

You are awesome by the way! Now I don't have to worry about this stuff anymore! I'd also love see how your steaming method compares to some of the other ways to steam the oven, that is probably too much additional work though.

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

RT = room temperature

Carole

albacore's picture
albacore

Dan, how is the chocolate box steamer coming along?

Lance

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I discovered something disappointing about my steam unit. It heats the water to boiling, but the vapor cools very quickly after leaving the nozzle. It looks like it is close to 212F (and that fluctuates, not cold nstant) right at the very tip of the nozzle. But 6 inches away and it cools drastically. At 16 inches or so I can spray my hand. It is hot but easily bearable. I think 2 things may be coming into play. 1) The hose allows the steam to cool as it travels through. 2) The vapor leaves the nozzle at high speeds and it is quickly cooling.

I am not sure what the affect is to steam when it is sprayed directly into the steam cover. The steam is never exposed to ambient temps since it is injected straight into the port. So at very least the vapor is hotter than water spritz.

Here are the links to the thermal data. I ran the test over 2 days so the graph is split in two. I’ll paste the links below to help communicate what is going on and at what time.

First day test. Thermal Comparison HotSteam vs RT Spray 7/25/18  https://share.fireboard.io/9E85B

Second day text. Continued Testing 7/26/18 https://share.fireboard.io/A818BF

Description of time lines copied below.

Therma Comparison of Steam Injection vs RT Water Spray

 

Probe1 positioned 1” above the baking stone and inside the cover

Probe2 positioned just inside the injection port, located front face, top, center

 

Test commence 12:38PM

1:56 inject 5 seconds steam, but forgot to purge water first will re-run test

2:15 spray 5 seconds RT water

2:55 inject 5 sec steam

3:09 spray 5 sec RT water 

3:48 inject 5 sec steam

4:30 spray 5 sec RT water 

 

Bread Test Baking 3 loaves separately. 100g, 200g, 400g  Oven will be allowed to regain heat before next bake. 

 

4:47 loaded 100g  with 5 seconds steam

5:08 removed cover - steam could be seen venting out of cover. Bread very spherical      - NOTE - Probe “at injection port” removed from oven

5:17 removed bread, replaced to and started re-heat

 

6:20 turned on convection 500F cover slow to recover, next time may leave cover out of oven until stone is fully reheated. Convection fan not turning on.

6:26 convection fan kicks on, temps drop slightly.

6:31 turned oven bake to 500F w/ no convection. Pulled injection plug and lifted cover about an inch above the stone in front.

 

Will have to continue bake testing tomorrow because steam machine is not producing hot steam. (That problem is mentioned above)

6:42 removed cover

 

Shutdown test @ 7:00, oven seems unable to recover. Maybe be ran too long.

 

Next day

200g loaf

12:10 Pre-heat has oven 500F

1:24 Oven reached temperature

2:14 put cover in oven and placed injection port probe 

2:56 loaded dough 5 seconds steam

3:18 removed cover - unfortunately in my rush to get things done I managed to push the dough back against the oven with the cover

 

400g loaf

4:33 loaded dough 5 seconds steam

4:53 removed cover

5:04 removed bread

 

Danny

 

NOTE: I am coming to the conclusion that home ovens are incapable of holding or recovering temperatures once dough is loaded into the oven. I’m not sure if this inability has a great affect on the bake. The temperature variances don’t seem to great.

I am learning just how laborious testing can be ;-)

kendalm's picture
kendalm

A steam generator or atomizer ? I apologize if you covered that already - haven't had the time to really sit and digest everything (but plan to). I am just wondering when you say its 212 near the nozzle. Just wondering if the device is forcing through a small hole and if so the first thing that comes to mind is shop compressors - have you ever used one and had to open the release valve to evacuate water build up, and, noticed the exiting spray turn to ice ?  

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

It is a steam generator used for household cleaning jobs. There is a removable nozzle on the end that is used to pressurize the steam. So Danny, why not remove the nozzle and give that a go? Might work, I’ll give that a try.

I have an air compressor in my shop, but I’ve never noticed ice when I bleed off the tank. But the air is colder as it exits. I do understand the principle, though. Similar to freon in an air conditioner that is pressurized and then forced through small orifice and causes a cooling affect as the freon escapes the jets.

Geremy, you have definitely started me thinking about the thermal capabilities of my oven. Now, when I bake It consider the size of the dough and also how many loaves will be baked at once. TrailRunner has influenced me to try baking in Granite Ware (using both the top and bottom, like a combo cooker) without using a stone. That gal is on to something, and I’m finally starting to listen. The popular cast iron concept (dare I say it) is flawed. Now I went and did it ;-)  I will be running test soon to verify.

Danny

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I don’t have much input except what I see in my oven.  I preheat oven to 250°c with stones, & 2 DO in there. also found it lost a lot of heat when loaded (using separate oven thermometer) and it did not recover during that bake.  This is using just normal bake. So now I heat oven as before, load 2 DO with bread, turn oven to convection and drop temperature to 225/230°c. lid is removed half way of course. the separate oven thermometer indicates I am now holding temperature. I reheat about 7 minutes between loads. If I use convection higher than 225/230°C I will get burnt bottoms.  I cannot meaasure exact temps as you are but it is fascinating all the same.

I imagine a lot of home ovens are performing as mine does - if I didn’t have convection the oven temperature recovery would be very slow! and this would impact on bread.  I have noticed that my convection seems hotter and I am seeing that in other baking. Not sure how accurate my oven thermometer is, but it seems to be in line with what I am seeing.

its all really interesting.

thanks Danny

Leslie

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I’ll have to try convection to test heat recovery. I’ve not looked into this.

Leslie, how are you measuring with the thermometers? Where are the thermometers placed?

I would be surprised to learn that internal recovery inside the cast iron is relaively quick. But I’m open to learn.

Danny

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

but the thermometer is outside the DO on the oven rack or sometimes hanging from it.  probably lot of reflected heat.  I do not measure inside the DO as I don’t have any gear for that.  WhenI preheat the DO the lid is angled into it,  not sitting on top so inside is heated too. 

 convection is always hotter so you drop the temperature when you use it.

Leslie

albacore's picture
albacore

I once had one of these steam cleaners, before I binned it (in an environmentally sound manner of course!). They are useless, even for cleaning.

I had always assumed that they would have a pressurised water tank to maintain a steam pressure, but they are simply a flash heater which heats the water instantaneously when you squeeze the trigger. So the steam is low pressure, low temperature, low flow, wet and intermittent!

You need something like the Bellmann milk steamer  Or hack an old pressure cooker - the kind with weights. You can turn the point where the weight sits into a connection point for a hose.

Obviously the usual precautions for steam - don't mess with the safety valve, make sure the connections are secure, etc.

 

Lance

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Lance, this unit has a pressurized water tank. But it is still deficient. Can you provide some info on the pressure cooker? I’m thinking a small pressure cooker with an old school weight. Then set a barbed fitting in the cover along side the pressure valve.  I have been considering food grade silicone tubing as a transfer hose for such a setup.

The milk steamer doesn’t look very robust. Have you tried it?

Danny

albacore's picture
albacore

is probably the best bet. Something like  this - or preowned if you can find one. I'd drill a hole towards the edge of the dome, fit a 1/4" SS bulkhead fitting with teflon washer and 1/4" SS ball valve with elbow and clip on a length of silicone tubing.

Lance

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I riding o;the same train as you ;-)). I looked at that exact pressure cooker, but I have an induction stovetop. I chose the SS version of the same Presto cooker. I’m thinking hard about this valve, coupled to food grade high heat silicone hose.  https://www.amazon.com/TIZZE-Stainless-Weldless-Bulkhead-Building/dp/B071GKPB6B/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

What do you think?

Dan

albacore's picture
albacore

Should do the job Dan. The only thing I would say is that I don't think you need a 1/2" valve, 1/4" would be big enough.

A pressure cooker is a pressure vessel at the end of the day, so the less you disturb its structure with big holes, the better.

 

Lance

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I may go with 1/4”, but so far I haven’t found anything suitable. Do you think the 1/2” valve may be detrimental?

albacore's picture
albacore

No - it'll work fine, if 1/4 isn't so easy to get. (Check out homebrew suppliers?) How are you going to drill a 7/8 hole?

I would suggest a good quality HSS hole saw. Pressure cooker metal is tough!

Lance

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Yes you can have too much steam.  Now on to the minutiae...

When I first started this hobby I latched onto the website of the fabulous Steve B, before I ever heard of TFL.  Unfortunately he hasn't updated his site in years, but uses a similar vehicle for steaming as you do.

Knowing nothing about nothing, I went out, purchased a hotel pan, drilled a hole in the end of it and then bought a steam machine as the one shown in his video.  And tossed them both out a few weeks later.  Just didn't do the job for me.  And I couldn't see the action "under the hood".

And then after discovering TFL by chance a short while later, the light came on.  Since then I am a devotee and advocate of the combination of Sylvia's Steaming Towel and a lava rock pan.  And I'd be hard pressed to surrender those for another solution short of buying a steam injection oven, which ain't gonna happen.

While I admire your ingenuity, obsessive research and testing and stick-to-it-ivness, I believe that my method, learned from others who tread before me on TFL, is as near a perfect solution as possible for baking on a stone in an electric oven.  I have complete control over the amount of steam, and I can see the action as it takes place through the glass oven window if I so desire.  

Truth is, I don't bother as consistency and repeatable results tend to have me ignore the oven during the steaming phase until the timer has gone off and I release the remaining steam from the oven.  Oh, I'll glance in there once in a while, but it more out of curiosity and being in the kitchen at that moment rather than checking up on the wares.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I noticed the steamer he used is not the real deal. It is the type Lance mentioned above. The temperature of that steam is probably not much more than warm. I have a steam generator and even it is doing a poor job.

I highly suspect, I’ll end up with a conventional method, but I’m going to explore a little more. My many failures have taught me a lot. I often tell the young ones in my family. “I can’t really tell you what you should do, but I can tell you what you should not do. And there is great value in that”. I bet you know what I mean ;-))

Hey! I’m retired. What else am I going to do? I am eternally inquisitive and love innovation. I failed more times than I care to mention. But those very few exceptions when I succeed makes all worth while :-)) My wife has learned to except my obsessions,  but I bet it took her 30 years or so to finally give in... I weakened her through persistence ;-)

When I wrote Steve, I asked him about his double score. Did you notice the way he scored the batard in the video in one direction and then re-scored in the same score, but going in the opposite direction? And on each pass he rotated the angle of the blade. Any idea about that?

Danny

 

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

but can never recall seeing anyone who actually makes a living day in and day out do it.  Steve's personal write up also tends to place him in the "obsessive" category if I recall correctly.  I think I've only done it a very few times when I felt that I had a bad or incomplete score, and I'm unconvinced that it buys one much in the way of an improved oven spring and grigne.  But there are a hundred ways to do something the right way (and two hundred to do things the wrong way too!).

"My many failures have taught me a lot. I often tell the young ones in my family. “I can’t really tell you what you should do, but I can tell you what you should not do. And there is great value in that”."

I was a programmer for most of my career and found that the best lessons learned were from my own mistakes.  If one never errs, how can they know what really goes on inside the engine and how to fix it?  We can tell others about our own mistakes, and as programmer I often said that I got it wrong more times than I got it right.  But until folks actually experience their own failures to analyze and learn from it is just  a bunch of how-to's, don't do this and "hot wind blowing at them".

Okay, I'm stepping down from the soapbox now...

Edit update: July 28.

Dan,  After rereading and thinking of the way that I worded the above statement about "hot wind", I realized that it might be taken the wrong way, and if so I do apologize.  I was referring to my own experiences as a programmer and how I found that there was little substitute for experience vs. someone stating something is or isn't so.  It was not intended to refer back to your specific words.  I am sorry in the event that you may have read it that way.

alan

albacore's picture
albacore

Dan, did you ever see this post from TFL contributor kenlklaser? He often has an interesting practical scientific angle on things.

The delightfully named "cookingwithcrack" linked website is no longer with us, but the good old Wayback Machine has it here

Lance

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I got with Ken, aka kenlklaser, and he told me he is still using the same pan cover with steam. He also told me he double scored because he thought the initial score was not deep enough. No other reason.

You gotta’ love this guy! Enjoyed his cooking with crack instructions also. Btw - I have injected steam into my oven via the exhaust vent. It filled the oven with steam. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I baked a batch of baguettes this afternoon and was sending some photos to my email baking "student".  I decided to show him what my oven steaming can produce.  Too big for an email so I posted it to YouTube.  And in an afterthought had the notion that it might be apropos to post it here in this thread.  

Virtually the entire steaming phase of my bake produces billows just like this coming continually out of the vent.

One Sylvia's Steaming Towel, one 9" x 13" pan of lava rocks with ~2 cups of near boiling water (carefully) poured on them. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Very nice, Alan.

I have 2 questions.

Do you measure the water so that it evaporates in the desired time or do you remove the steam vessels?

Have you ever tried to close off the oven vents? If so, is it helpful?

Thanks for sharing the video.

Danny

alfanso's picture
alfanso

1: No.  I have my timer initially set for 12 or 13 minutes.  When it goes off, I remove the steaming towel.  At that point all or almost all of the 2 cups of water poured over the lava rocks has dissipated.  Just by opening the oven door I'm initiating the release of steam.  There is some residual steam still coming out of the vent after I close the door and re-fire up the oven to get it back to temp.  But that may just be coming off the dough and not enough to worry about.  I understand from previous posts that DocDough, if I have his name correct, feels that 5 minutes is sufficient steam.  However, my personal experience and the resultant breads can't convince me that I'm doing it wrong.

2: No.  Although my oven is electric, so it doesn't have the same safety requirements as a gas oven and its own venting needs, I haven't.  Whether it would damage the oven in some way or not, I don't much see the need to do it when I'm completely satisfied that what goes into the oven box comes out as I was anticipating.

BTW - my answering no and no reminded me of a dark era in the US during wartime racial profiling of Japanese Americans.  The "No No boys" were segregated and placed into a "disloyal" group in Tule Lake internment camp.  http://encyclopedia.densho.org/No-no_boys/ if you care.  We became painfully aware of them during our years in Sacramento and Portland by virtue of many Japanese American friends there and our own visit to Tule Lake.  

In fact, young forcefully-interned Japanese men during WWII were so "disloyal" that their 442nd regiment became the most decorated regiment in US military history.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(United_States).  

The two no answers prompted heartfelt memories.

alan