second 100% whole wheat sourdough loaf
I'm pretty sure I let the levain ferment longer than necessary on this one (first time working with a bran levain, I wasn't sure when it was ready), so both the bulk fermentation and the proof got cut short when I thought I started to see signs of overfermentation.
The loaf feels heavy in my hand, but the slices don't seem heavy in the eating. I wondered if the bigger holes than last time could be "fool's crumb", but the denser parts are not at all gummy, although they are nice and moist. Thoughts on that?
Flavor is very nice; not sour (a requirement of my other eater); not complex, either, but I like the straightforward taste of the Red Fife wheat. Crust is thin and pretty crisp, although still too pale under that heavy load of rice flour (to keep the dough from sticking to the cotton banneton liner -- think I'll order a linen one, and try that instead of so *much* rice flour). 20 minutes covered at 450F, 20 minutes uncovered at 425F, final internal temp 212F (oops!). Next time will uncover after 15 minutes?
My doughs so far are kind of loose, saggy, floppy; they don't develop tension and a skin, or hold their shape after shaping. In addition to my need to develop better dough handling skills, I wonder if my cutting the salt from 1.8% to 1.6% might have something to do with it; if I go ahead and use 1.8%, or go up to 2% salt, might that tighten things up a bit? Or did I not let the dough ferment enough, in my effort to avoid overfermentation? Or knead the dough too little, or too much (20 minutes of slap & fold after 10 minutes of mixing and kneading and adjusting water and flour)? Or do stretch and folds too little, too much, or improperly? Or, most likely, some combination of the above? The hydration was at 85%, which seems like it shouldn't be too much for whole wheat. When I first mix the autolyzed flour and water with the salt and starter the dough is so elastic that it's almost unworkable (80% hydration at that point). I add a little more water in order to do slap & folds, and after that it's all extensibility all the way... it develops some elasticity while I'm actively handling it, but loses it all again as soon as I stop, and doesn't return. Thank heavens I'm getting some oven spring, because this one went into the oven looking like more of a pancake than a loaf of bread, too, despite not sticking to the banneton liner. I'm not dissatisfied with this loaf, am happy with the flavor and most things about the texture, but would like a browner crust and a taller loaf. I'll keep working on it, but maybe I'll have to consider a sandwich style pan bread for applications where I want height?
I'm working with shortish fermentation times because the idea of sourdough bread has been a tough sell in this house, the overly harsh taste of commercially made "sourdough" breads having soured my eater on the idea, so I'm seriously trying to avoid much of a sour flavor at this point (although I think a little bit of a lactic acid-based, yogurty kind of sour would go over better than an acetic acid-based, vinegary kind of sour -- vinegar is well loved here, but not as a flavor of bread).
Obviously your loaf is not perfect, but, you got some oven bloom! I'm still working on my oven bloom.
I'd think the darkness of your loaf should be an easy problem to solve. Is it possible your oven is not maintaining a hot enough temperature? I find it weird that your crust color matches your crumb color.
Last year my oven broke. So I bought a new used double oven. The previous oven cooked pizzas at 500 dF no problem. But the new oven kept baking non-crispy pizzas, I couldn't figure out why. Then, I put some thermometers in the oven in different spots to see what was happening. As soon as I put the pizza in the new oven, the temp would drop a lot and it wouldn't catch up for something like 15 minutes. I did some research and found out that my old oven had 3 heating elements and my new oven only had 2 AND the old ovens heating elements were rated for 20% more watts each. So... that means my old oven could potentially produce out 80% more heat than my new oven.
So... I ditched the new oven, and found my old oven on craigslist and bought it. My pizza went back to being crispy!
I'm not saying this is what is happening to you, but, you might want to check. Also, adding a water pan or a steam source can put even more pressure on your oven to hold temperature.
One more comment, testing the oven un-loaded, isn't enough. You have to have a heat sink in the oven (like a wet loaf of dough) to make the oven have to work to keep the temperature steady.
with this recipe/formula. The pale crust color is really unappealing, isn't it?
My oven troubles are legion... I live in an apartment in an older building. Many and various reasons for this, and, mostly we're happy here. But, when it comes to ovens, the landlord buys the cheapest thing they can get. We are on our second one, and the glass cover fell off the door within a few months... didn't want to annoy them again, so we hold it on with clamps, which, oddly, works. I love the gas stovetop, but there are some issues with the gas oven. (Although I understand electric ovens have their issues, too.) The electronics is one: when it signals that it's done preheating, it's actually 50-100 dF below the temp it's claiming. I do have two oven thermometers in there; oddly, in spite of the single gas heating element at the bottom, the temps are equal on both sides of the oven. So I set the temp for 50-100 degrees above what I want, then check the actual temp when the beeper goes off, then give it more time until it gets to about 5-10 degrees above what I want, to allow for temp loss when loading. My clay baker is preheating during all this. Also, we keep the pizza stone in the oven all the time to help with holding the heat (the oven is so poorly insulated that you could heat a couple of rooms with it if you wanted to -- the temp in the kitchen skyrockets when I'm baking bread or have the broiler on -- which you have to actually kneel on the floor and bend over double to check how your food is browning under the broiler). Then I set the temp about 10 degrees above what I want, and lower it to the prescribed temp only after the loaf is loaded and in there and the oven is holding the prescribed temp according to the oven thermometers I've placed inside, about five minutes later. Not using any steam pans with the clay baker.
A second issue is that you can't really place food in the exact halfway point, vertically-wise; you can put an oven rack at the exact halfway point, which is where I've had it; I think I'll try lowering it a notch, as well as uncovering five minutes earlier.
Glad you got your own oven issues sorted. I think I can make this one work. I've considered getting a countertop convection oven, but that seems like overkill, since counter space -- indeed any kind of space -- is a major issue around here.
After looking at a couple of Maurizio's recipes, I'm wondering if adding a bit of diastatic malt to the dough would help with the crust color. Any thoughts on that?
Are you planning another bake soon, or busy soaking up lots of info first? I'm really anxious to try another loaf, but waiting until most of this one has been eaten up. I do feel like I'm gradually learning how to do this. I wonder if I'm handicapped by having formed my concept of what dough should feel like back in the 70s, when the whole grain loaves were much denser and less hydrated. My wet dough never feels right to me, and I'm always worrying about it. And flour sticks to it like crazy; I hate trying to shape it on a floured board. Since the dough (mostly) doesn't stick to my wet hands, this last time I used water to wet the board and my scraper as well as my hands. I really liked the way that worked, but I would like it better if the loaf I formed was tight enough to roll it in a little flour at the end to help prevent it sticking to the basket. I sprinkled rice flour on top instead, and ended up piling on way too much, plus it relaxed so much in those few seconds that it kind of flopped into the banneton a bit unevenly.
"The pale crust color is really unappealing, isn't it?"
Unappealing and strange... all 8 of my 100% whole wheat experiments over the past week have browned considerably more. I wonder if the acid from your leaven is causing the change in color. I haven't been using a leaven, I have been using only commercial yeast.
Your oven sounds like a mess. Geez. I have a mind image of this rackety old thing held up by rubber bands and shoelaces.
"After looking at a couple of Maurizio's recipes, I'm wondering if adding a bit of diastatic malt to the dough would help with the crust color. Any thoughts on that?"
Yep. That would probably do it, a little sugar on the exterior will brown up real nice and add a complex flavor I bet too.
"Are you planning another bake soon, or busy soaking up lots of info first?" I baked two loaves yesterday and I am working on 4 today. The 2 loaves had slightly better crumb, but, I realized I have been overproofing in an attempt to get open crumb. But, I am now convinced very very open crumb isn't going to happen with 100% whole grain. When I get a chance, I hope to write my first blog post about my bake today and plan moving forward. I think I will be trying to find and perfect the perfect 100% whole grain sandwhich loaf to appease my wife and kids, and then a 15% to 50% whole grain rustic open crumb loaf that I can use for barter in my country community. I have lots of locals willing to trade honey, mead, pork, beef, chicken, jams, etc., and a tartine quality rustic loaf would be like cash in hand :-).
This has been a fun journey so far.
Also, I received my copy of "The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book" in the mail yesterday. After reading the first couple of chapters, I think the book will be very useful for coming deciding on the perfect 100% whole grain loaf for my family. I am half way through reading Trevor Wilson's book.
The oven is only a couple of years old. It's just really cheap. If they had just left the electronics out, I'd be happier with it -- an old-fashioned gas stove is just fine with me. Of course, holding the door together with clamps is a little unusual, but, if it works... fine!
I think I may also end up working on a sandwich loaf for my son and a different kind of loaf for myself (what I really want are 100% whole grain, trying different kinds of flours, cracked grains, seeds, etc., including some denser breads like German ryes).
On the Breadwerx site, Trevor J. Wilson has a recipe for sourdough pan bread and another for a 50% whole wheat sourdough artisan-style bread. If I could somehow combine these two recipes into a 50% WW pan bread, it might be just what he would like. He's not as into whole grains as I am, although he is careful not to overdo the refined carbs (they put him to sleep). At least with sourdough, the bread doesn't attack you with a huge glycemic load. The basic pan bread in the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book might also work. Her basic recipe for two loaves has only about half as much honey and oil as the "Loaf for learning", which I thought had a lot. Or there may be a good recipe in Peter Reinhart's Whole Grain Bread Book. But I really like the looks of the recipes on the Breadwerx site.
Once I get the loaf I've been working on down, I can try adding small amounts of soaked seeds and cracked grains, etc. and try some recipes from "The Rye Baker: Classic Breads from Europe and America", and breads that other people here are doing, some of them look so delicious!
I think it's wise not to pursue 100% whole wheat and Tartine-style open crumb in the same loaf. Hopefully you'll see rapid progress, with all the info you've been absorbing. Looking forward to reading your blog post. I'm getting a lot out of Trevor Wilson's book, and I'm reading The Bread Builders, too (it's hard for me to read Trevor's book on my Kindle, the print's too small for my aged eyes, the formatting is better on my computer or iPad).
OK, So, yeah... look at what came out of the oven today. 100% bread flour. 70% hydration. 2 more hours until I get to see the crumb. Conclusion: Processed flour is much easier, 100% whole wheat is HARD.
And yeah, whole wheat is harder, but I always did like a challenge!
Plus, I just vastly prefer the flavor of whole grains. I can be weird like that.
Looks like you’ll have some great bread to trade with soon :-)
The loaves today are a test. I want to rule out some possible mistakes by seeing if a lot of my issues resolve themselves with processed flour. The end goal is to find the right balance between open crumb, whole wheat percentage, and ease of replicating results.
Did you see the most recent 100% whole wheat example someone posted on my other thread!? That is what I want!
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/412739#comment-412739
The bread at that link: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/33735/home-bread-fighting-gravity does look absolutely gorgeous. I'd like to try it, but a 12-hour retard in the fridge would be difficult for me to manage. I wonder if I can learn how to modify the recipe for an 18-hour retard instead.
I think that once you're making a loaf that reaches your goals, you'll be able to figure out how to repeat it in a way that's easy for you. Trying to figure out ease of replicating results before getting the result seems formidable to me.
I don't know how you feel about sticking with pure sourdough, but perhaps you could try just a pinch of active dry yeast to see if you get a more airy crumb. And if you (or others) don't like the sour taste, but want wild yeast, have you tried yeast water? Or both sourdough starter and yeast water? Check out the crumb on Joze's gluten free bread made with just yeast water for leavening.
Do you happen to have any links handy that I could read to learn more about it? I'm not totally opposed to using a pinch of commercial yeast, and yeast water sounds fascinating. There is so much to learn, and I feel like I still have plenty to learn about judging proper fermentation with my starter, and gluten development, and dough handling skills. We're actually pretty happy with the taste, and even the texture, of the breads I've been making (I would like them a bit more complex, he probably prefers the 50% WW a bit, but I love the full taste of 100% Red Fife, so we compromise a little), and I'm not pursuing really big holes or a super-airy bread (yet), but I think I need a taller loaf to get him to automatically choose it for his sandwiches. I think I'll wind up with two basic loaves in the end, a batard that I can start adding various cracked grains and seeds to, and a pan loaf that he prefers for sandwiches. Just a little hard for us to get through two loaves at once, although, since sourdough keeps so well, maybe... thinking out loud here a bit. But the yeast water does sound fascinating, that buckwheat bread looks fantastic.
Well, there is a very detailed past post here. And another here. You can also search in the search box for Yeast Water or YW. dabrownman in particular uses yeast water a lot and has many past bakes using both YW and sourdough starter.
Personally I maintain an apple yeast water because I like the smell of it so much. I started it with apples from my own tree so the yeasts on the skins were pretty local (and no pesticides, etc.) but maintain it with whatever apples I happen to have around, just to provide food for the active culture. The main thing I've learned is that yeast water likes warm temperatures so it helps if the dough is fermented fairly warm.
and found this one, too, a yeast water "primer": http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/35473/yw-primer
More cool stuff to learn! I'll inquire at the farmers' market on Saturday about what local fruits might be good to try. The peaches I've been getting seem to come with plenty of yeasts on their skins. (I live in an apartment, unfortunately do not have access to a gardening space). And it's certainly warm enough around here right now. Probably a little too warm to be optimal for the sauerkraut I've been making, so this will be a good fermentation project for the summer.
Just remember that, if you want to keep the YW going, you'll have to keep feeding it, so you should use a fruit you can get year round. I started a plum yeast water last summer, but then ran out of fresh plums. Most people keep a raisin YW (use organic if you can; they don't have oil on the skins) or something simple like an apple YW (depending on where you live and what is easily available year round). Just don't use fresh pineapple (enzymes are too strong).
round makes them easy for maintenance for sure.
I treat YW like I treat NMNF starter. I leave it the fridge for months at a time with no maintenance at all. But when i use it, occasionally, I usually refresh it then so ti stay in the fridge for another few months:-) I alternate between the fig and and apple one so they get refreshed every 3-4 months or so.
I think I can still get farmers' market apples (which are not certified organic, but I think the farmer in question at least tries to avoid pesticides -- the peaches at least come with plenty of yeast on their skins), which I can continue to get year round, though not always organic or pesticide-free once the farmers' market closes for the winter. The food co-op gets organic produce when it can, but also favors local farmers who use healthful practices but aren't certified organic. It seems that that process has become very expensive for a lot of small producers to pursue it. Maybe I'll have to use organic raisins. Not actually my favorite fruit. Too sweet.
I don't think you'll need to worry about certified organic. It's nice to use unsprayed fruit but once you get the YW going you don't need the yeasts anymore. Just some fruit to feed it with, so you can wash or peel the fruit at that point. The yeast culture is in the water then. The raisins don't need to be organic but you should start with organic (just a few) to get the yeasts off the skin, then wash the oil off any raisins that you use subsequently to feed the YW.
Got it :-)
But I'n getting ready to have cataract surgery too. The curm is open but no bloom means the dough was over proofed a bit - I'd say 92 to 95% instead of the 85% it should be. I think that is all that need fixing and you can do that on the next bake easy enough. Just brush off the extra rice flour or better yet after scoring brush the whole loaf with water or spritz it after the dust off.
The next one is always better than the last one - no worries! They eat just as good anyway:-)
The fermentation really got away from me on this one. No ears to speak of. Couldn't really even score it properly, the texture was too spongy.
And you're right that the eating is still good :-) I'm having a lot of fun with this, having trouble waiting until I can try again. I was scared to brush the dough before baking. Blew off some rice flour, getting it *everywhere*, lol. Spritzed it, but obviously not enough. Will know better next time!
If I remember correctly, you mix your bran levain the night before. Then I think you refrigerate it at some point? Do you let it develop a while before putting in the fridge, and how soon before you plan to bake do you take it out?
I've been avoiding any retarding because I'm trying to avoid developing sourness. Is my approach correct for reaching my goal? It seems to be working so far. I'm thinking I should have added my levain to the AL much earlier, when it started to smell and feel right, even though it looked the same because of being so thick. Thinking that then the bulk and the proof would not have been quite so fast, if the levain was younger. Does that make sense?
Hoping your cataract surgery goes well. They say mine are nowhere near ready yet. So I guess I can look forward to several more years of feeling like I can't see well, lol! That's OK, I really hate having surgery.
right eye and said 'Jesus man, can you at all out that eye?' We both cracked up when I said - perfectly .....when I close it Doc! He's taking a month vacation and getting all rested up before trying to tackle that perfect eye. i think that is kind of thoughtful on his part! I'd ask him where he is going for vacation but am afraid he would say 'medical school'.
Yes I mix my bran levains ahead of time and when they double I retard the, for 12- 24 hours before warming them up on the counter for use. I usually take out when I start the dough flour and water autolyse with the salt sprinkled on top.
A young levain to keep the sour down in a whole grain bread is an oxymoron. The whole grains will add more sour than anything else you could do:-) Not worth worrying about if you as me ...and you did I think? The bulk may be a bit slower with a young levain but it you let it bulk ferment properly, where it should be for best flavor, the final [roof will not be effected. If you shot it on the bulk then the final proof will be a bit longer.
The fridge is your friend and a 12 hour retard will give the bread a bit of tang that it needs to offset and balance the powerful whole grain bitterness. Sweet, sour and salt all counter bitterness in food.
Happy baking Fran you are almost there.
than before it! And it's strange how they get younger every year, isn't it?
I must sound anxious. Maybe I am, but what I feel is eager. Eager to get to the point where I can try some more interesting loaves. But I'd like to get the basics down first. I like feeling competent.
Oddly, anything I've made with either the Red Fife, or since starting to mill the grain fresh at home, doesn't taste bitter to me. Well, maybe the crust on one 50% WW loaf a little bit. Granted, my taste buds aren't what they used to be, but my son hasn't been complaining about bitterness in the loaves, and he's the one who was complaining about the bitterness of commercial whole wheat breads. I was thinking that there's no rancid oils because it's freshly milled, and that the sourdough dealing with the phytic acid in the bran was taking care of the rest. But, I'll have to try retarding at some point, to see what happens... I would like a more complex flavor. In the long run I might end up making a non-sour basic sandwich loaf for my son, and playing around with different kinds of grains and seeds and soakers and sprouting for myself. I really want to try some rye breads. Once I get the hang of this :-)
Thanks for the reassurance!