The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Dead Sourdough and Deflated Ego, Going to try Again

texasbakerdad's picture
texasbakerdad

Dead Sourdough and Deflated Ego, Going to try Again

About a year ago, I made my own sourdough culture. I wasn't sure which wheat flour to use to start the culture, so I decided to start 3 cultures each with a different wheat flour. I ended up using King Arthur Whole Wheat, King Arthur Whole Organic Wheat, and a local whole wheat. Each culture behaved differently. In the end I combined all 3 cultures and had wonderful tasting sourdough. Each batch made with the sourdough starter had tremendous flavor. I was a happy camper.

I have a gaggle of kids (six) at home that I home school, all under the age of 12. Consequently, I get to bake sporadically. The kids makes it hard for me to stay on top of the daily needs of room temperature sourdough. I was hesitant to put the sourdough in the fridge because I love the ability to grab the sourdough and use it immediately without having to revive the sourdough first.

To further complication is that I have a 10 year old daughter who loves baking, she is working towards having one of her chores be to bake a loaf of bread every day. As part of this responsibility, I'd love to put her in charge of maintaining the sourdough.

Back to my wonderful sourdough. Yeah... it died. My daughter was happily pumping out good tasting sourdough pan de mie loaves nearly every day. She was even staying on top of feeding the sourdough. Then, life got busy, and the sourdough was not getting the attention it deserved. Usually after a few days of neglect, I would just poor off the hooch and refresh the sourdough, sometimes I would even scrape off some mold. But, the last time the mold was just too much for me to stomach and I was getting tired of hearing my wife complain about the musky smell of the neglected sourdough, so I threw it out. I miss my sourdough.

I resolved to not make another sourdough starter unless I figured out a more practical way to maintain the sourdough with our lifestyle. And then, I found 'thefreshloaf'.

I am now formulated a new process, your feedback is much appreciated:

  • Store the sourdough in the fridge
  • The night before bread baking, create a preferment using the sourdough without any additional reviving.
  • Use the preferment in the morning! Done! Simple!
  • If I can't get around to using the preferment at the right time in the morning, throw it in the fridge until later in the day.

Concerns/Questions:

  • Do I need to do more to awaken the sourdough before using it in a preferment?
  • With my previous sourdough culture, I found that if I let a little hooch form on top of the sourdough before using it, I would get very sour loaves that I really enjoyed. Was that just a coincidence or does the hooch add to the sour flavor?

Thankyou!

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40918/no-muss-no-fuss-starter

It is used by many on the site and is a proven method. 

Dan

texasbakerdad's picture
texasbakerdad

Dan,

Thanks for the link, I think I will use that method.

I don't understand why a 3 stage feed of the starter is necessary? If the wild yeast takes hold, does it need to happen in 3 stages? why not just put all the flour and water in at one time?

Is it because?

  • The yeast to fresh flour ratio needs to stay high, otherwise other microorganisms might take over.
  • Too much flour/water will disrupt the yeasty environment and throw things like PH off too much and keep the yeast from proliferating happily.

I ask, because doing 1 feeding would be less work, and I like less work.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

done only one feeding but I get better loaves if I refresh my starter at least 3 times before making the final Levain.

I am pretty loose about the times to feed. Anywhere from 8 to 12 hours between feeds is just fine as long as you give it enough flour and water to last that long. I used to be very regimented about times, amounts and weighed everything, now I just eyeball it and make the starter like thick pancake dough

I am even very flexible on what it gets fed. I didn’t have any whole grain flour and didn’t feel like milling any, so it got AP for 2 feeds and the third was done with bran when I finally did mill some wheat for this week’s bake. 

Keeping it in the fridge is ideal. I hadn’t touched mine for a month and it bounced back just fine. You will just need to do just a bit of pre-planning. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Your sure look a lot like Ben. How’s Hoss, Adam, and Little Joe? We sure miss the gang ;-))

Dan

Question Danni - Does 100% bran work well for you when feeding your levain? I’ve been sifting lately with a #50. 20% of the ground wheat returns as bran. Any other good ideas how to use it? What about rolling the shaped dough in it like you would seeds?

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

100% bran allows the wee beasties to multiply just fine. You won’t see a lot of rise if any but you will see a lot of aeration when you stir it. For my last build, I prefer adding flour although I have used straight bran. You will see that the levain is a lot less sticky when made with bran.  

And I have coated the outside of loaves with bran just like you would do with seeds. It does add a bit of crunch and a nice flavour but be aware, that like seeds, the bran ends up all over the counter when you slice the bread. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I would like to use all of the grain that I mill in the bread. I like the fact that whole grain is whole (100%) grain. I’m trying to get all of it into the bread without comprising rise. But ideally use it outside the flour portion.

If a soaker, how lng before it would soften enough to not disturb the crumb?

80% extraction leaves me with quite a bite of bran :-) Goal = No Waste

Dan

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I would soak it at least 24 hours and preferably with a bit of something acidic like yogurt, starter, kefir or other fermented food. 

Elsie_iu's picture
Elsie_iu

I soak the bran (since the bran leaven doesn't use it up) separately in yogurt whey for every bake. I usually do it for 4 hours, which is the time my bran leaven takes to be ready. However, I think even a 30 minute soak is enough and I seriously can't see any difference between hydrating it for 30 minutes and 2 days :)

Bottom line: Soak it for as long or short as you like to fit your schedule. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Teach me about yogurt and bran. I have never used yodurt in baking. You both mentioned that and I’m curious to learn. Does the acid in the yogurt work to break down the bran?

Another question - Since yogurt is a culture (I think), does it have an affect on the leavening?

Dan

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

but I believe that the acid in the yogurt helps to break down the bran. I use the bran to feed my levain it gets in contact with acid that way. 

In baking, I use just a bit of yogurt to make my crusts more tender as a lot of people didn’t like the chewy crusts I was getting. Makes the crumb more tender as well. I use 30 g of full fat plain yogurt to 1100 g of flour. Not a lot but it sure makes a difference. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Do you use the yogurt as part of the liquids? Do the microbes in the yogurt culture after the rise of the dough? Does yogurt store well in the frig?

I plan to give this a try.

Isn’t it amazing how so little of a particular ingredient can affect the dough and bread?

Dan

Elsie_iu's picture
Elsie_iu

The former is 81% water and the later 93% so one must adjust the hydration accordingly. 

Are you asking if yogurt stores well in the fridge by itself or after being mixed into the dough? Either way, I don't think you'll have a problem storing it for a week in the fridge. The same goes for whey. In fact, due to the low acidity of sourdough, yogurt and whey, microbial activities of food spoilage bacteria are hindered. In my opinion, it's fine to leave dough with whey or yogurt as partial liquid ingredients at room temperature for a day.

Just try to limit whey or yogurt to 20% of liquid to play safe. An acid overload would slow or even stop bacterial activities.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

Sometimes I add it as part of the liquids and more often, I add it at the same time as the Levain and salt. I usually don’t consciously adjust the hydration but I must since I go by feel. 

I have no idea if the yogurt cultures after the rise of the dough. 

And yes, it stores well in the fridge. It’s the one thing that I don’t hesitate to use for at least a month after the best by date. 

Elsie_iu's picture
Elsie_iu

I'm using whey strained from yogurt, not the yogurt itself. Like Danni, I'm not sure if the acid aids the breakdown of bran. Since whey is acidic and bacteria and yeast are more adapted to acidic environment, it might promote bacterial and yeast activities. To my knowledge, most, if not all, yeast and bacteria cannot digest cellulose (fiber). However, they might help to break down the starch in bran to glucose.  

When used in main dough, the acidity promotes enzymatic activities in the same way mentioned above. In addition, whey contains the lactose of milk. I think the added food might shorten the bulk time required. It also contributes to other sensory achieves like more browned crust, and softer and sweeter crumb.

I might be wrong but I believe the acid helps to strengthen the gluten in dough. Whey contains whey protein (and casein protein as well for yogurt), the added protein might provide some structure, yet again, it's just a guess.

Both yogurt and yogurt whey have probiotics. I haven't observed a very prominent effect whey has on the dough leavening time. Maybe it did speed up the process by a bit but it was not obvious enough for me to notice.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I appreciate the info.

I am an obsessive type. Who knows, maybe yogurt making is next. I do have a Brod & Taylor proofer. I’m sure my wife will be thrilled ;-)) ...not

Dan

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

will leaven bread but kefir will. 

Elsie_iu's picture
Elsie_iu

I make my own yogurt from store bough pasteurized skim milk.

Heat milk to 180°F then cool it back to 120°F. Mix in 1/8 tsp of yogurt and wrap the milk containing bowl with aluminium foil. Maintain the temperature for 5-6 hours and you get yogurt :) I like to refrigerate it before straining as it thickens the yogurt.

With a proofer, making yogurt becomes low-maintenance. I keep the temperature stable by putting the bowl into the oven, turning the oven set at 350°F on every hour. Now, you skip this annoying step with the proofer. What is stopping you from attempting homemade yogurt?

I haven't bought yogurt for over a year as the culture never goes die. Homemade yogurt keeps well in the fridge for at least two weeks. It might get sourer with time but the difference is not huge to me.

pcake's picture
pcake

i've been making this one for a while 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/50008/i-call-faux-sourdough

not sourdough but can be pretty sour using the yogurt, and maybe there's something in it that applies.  i have tried it with 1 tbsp as per recipe and with 2 for a bit sourer finish.