The Fresh Loaf

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What is going wrong here?

_Box's picture
_Box

What is going wrong here?

This keeps happening. I am using the Tartine basic country loaf method (KA Bread Flour and Josey Baker Whole Wheat). 100% Rye starter fed 2x day that doubles consistently. Levain seems to take a bit to pass the float test (like 10 hrs at 70 degrees ambient room temp). I've tried longer bulks and shorter bulks, various shaping techniques, strong mixes and lighter mixes and nothing seems to fix the problem. I don't get what's going on. This attempt was 3.5 hr bulk rise (kept 78 degree internal dough temp) after the Tartine 40 min- 1hr version of an autolyse (with levain but no salt). After the bulk, I retard overnight in the fridge.  When I extend the bulk I get less spring but a similar crumb--big holes toward the top, dense everywhere else.

Does anyone know what could be going wrong so consistently?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Or insufficient bulk ferment. It's either down to timing or how you're maintaining your starter. 

Can you explain your starter maintenance? Has it ever made a decent loaf? 

_Box's picture
_Box

Thanks, Lechem.  I suspected that an under-active leaven (or maybe starter) might be the case, which is why I mentioned that the leaven seems to take a while (10 hrs or so) to pass a float test.  I've described my starter maintenance and levain build below for more context.  Would love to hear any thoughts you might have.

Starter maintenance.  100% hydration 100% rye (Bob's Red Mill organic dark rye).  I feed twice per day in roughly 12hr intervals.  I discard all but 30g and replenish with 60g rye and 60g room temp water.  I see good activity consistently, no off smells on this schedule, and it doubles in 10hrs or so.  I have never seen it triple.  Room temp in my kitchen is anywhere between 68-74*F.

Levain build.  Using the Tartine instructions, I use roughly 20-25g starter to inoculate 200g 50/50 bread/whole wheat).  I don't have a good sense yet of what to look for (especially with Tartine's "young levain" technique) so my only real indication is the float test, which I know can be imprecise.  Often, I'm not entirely sure if the leaven floats because scooping it into the water traps some air and adds buoyancy--then again scooping it out could also be degassing it and making it sink! :)  When I test, usually I will proceed if bigger pieces float even if some strands sink.

Has it ever made a decent loaf?  This is the frustrating part.  I'm a few months into this journey, and I was seeing some signs of improvement.  Looking back, this issue of bigger holes toward the top with dense crumb surrounding was there, but things were trending in the right direction.  You can see in the photo below some of the same signs, but to a lesser extent.  Since then, things went awry.  I should mention that my starter maintenance has changed since I started out, although that was after I began noticing these issues in the crumb.  I originally fed once per 24hrs, discarded all but 60g and replenished with 60g rye and 60g water.  That was going fine until it led to an off, acetone smell in the starter.  I moved to 2x day feeding with smaller inoculations, which solved the off smell.

Any thoughts appreciated.  Thanks!

better days 

 

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

"Levain build.  Using the Tartine instructions, I use roughly 20-25g starter to inoculate 200g 50/50 bread/whole wheat)."

My experience has been that one Tablespoon of starter (per Tartine) equates to roughly 40 grams (not 20-25).  Perhaps a smidgen more of your starter is needed too.  I also agree with the others who cite underfermentation and underproofing as likely causes of your crumb result.

_Box's picture
_Box

Thanks for picking up on that. I’m not sure why in the book they described it as a tablespoon but everything else is measured by weight.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

rushing fermentation.  Time to boost up the starter or add time to the instructions.

_Box's picture
_Box

I've tried to extend the room temp fermentation to 4, 5, 6, 7+ hours (always keeping the overnight retard in the fridge).  I usually get the same symptoms, but with less oven spring :/

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

mature more before using for the levain.  You won't see much rise in a rye starter after about 8 hours of decent fermentation because the starter rye matrix is too weak to support it.  A 100% rye matrix is about the only thing I use a clock on.  After 8 hours, the matrix develops holes and the gas will continue to be produced but leak out like a sieve.  So the strength of the yeast has to be judged by other observations like taste, aroma and consistency.  It can only triple or more in those first 8 hours.  Temperature will slow down a rye rise faster than a wheat rise and the matrix will be stiffer and less flexible in comparison. 

Once the rye sourdough is mixed with fresh flour or other flours as in the case of a levain, the matrix changes and depending on the flour added the matrix becomes stronger and can trap gas longer.  

So my suggestion is before making the levain, boost the yeast numbers in the starter by giving a refreshment and letting that mature completely at warmer temperatures. Then inoculate the levain.  Try 5g rye starter with 20g each water and rye flour.  Get the temps up to around 76° to 78°F and keep in a warm spot until peaked, slightly thinner, and kicking out lots of aroma.  It should have a little sour taste and not taste bland like wet flour.  After 8 hours, reguarless of temp, the starter should stop rising.  Give it a good stir after checking the sides of the jar for good bubble formation and are happy with what you see.   The consistency should be thinner than when adding and mixing in the inoculate and the aromas should be presenting themselves yeasty and fruity.  If the starter appears slow and bubbles too small and more round than odd shapes, the fermenting is too slow and not enough byproducts have been produced ...repeat a one to 4 feeding with warm temps before using waiting for a peak.

Later on when you are looking at the bulk rise, don't be afraid to slice into the dough and take a good look at the gas trapping bubble formation inside the dough.  After taking a look, fold the dough to reseal or slap the edges back together.  Note how the bubbles change as fermentation progresses.  

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I’m curious. How does insufficient BF or possibly weak starter cause these large holes? I don’t have any experience with this. How would the large holes decrease from a longer BF or a stronger starter?

”inquiring minds want to learn”...

Dan

_Box's picture
_Box

Asking for a friend...

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Starter information, as already asked about is important, however, I have a few more questions about handling techniques.

There is no mention made of any Stretch &Folds after bulk fermentation. That helps distribute the gaseous bubbles in a dough during/after bulk fermentation.

If you have levain (full amount?) mixed in with the flour for 40-minutes-1hr in addition to 3.5 hrs BF then you essentially a 4.5hr BF. However, I don't think that is the issue, I mention it to be aware of where your yeast is, food-wise.

I actually think the problem is a combination of shaping/handling and over-proofing.

Shaping:

You may need a few gentle Stretch&Folds during or after bulk fermentation. If you are already doing that then it is obviously not part of the issue.

Over-proofing:

I don't believe the crumb around the big holes is dense-just denser than the big bubbles. The remaining crumb looks like a good distribution of smaller but various sized bubbles. However, big bubbles can form when the dough ages and the gluten bubble walls weaken and break. This causes a bunch of smaller bubbles to become one larger bubbles just as in the manner of your dough.

Solution:It could be that your refrigerator cycles higher in temperature than you know (at it's high point) or holds higher than you know. If you have access to a thermocouple to check the temp of the refrig. without opening the door, that would be ideal and give you the best data. If you don't, just listen to the refrig. and check the temp when the compressor goes off. Wait and check it after it has been off a while and see if you can determine the temps in the cycle.

Empirically, just turn it down a tad or plan on a shorter cold retard.

You also did not mention how long you let it sit out of the refrig after the long,cold retard. That cold be important info.

Forgive me if I don't respond if you have questions as I am travelling and only on my computer intermittently. I tried to include suggestions within this post.

 

_Box's picture
_Box

Thanks so much for the suggestions, clazar123.  Hopefully I hit some of your questions below.  Noted on the BF time. I have always been a bit confused with the timing described in the Tartine method where the levain (full 200g) is mixed in for the autolyse, and then salt added after 40min or so.  The book describes 3-4 hrs of bulk rise, and I have always read that as taking place starting after the mix with salt.

Starter maintenance.  100% hydration 100% rye (Bob's Red Mill organic dark rye).  I feed twice per day in roughly 12hr intervals.  I discard all but 30g and replenish with 60g rye and 60g room temp water.  I see good activity consistently, no off smells on this schedule, and it doubles in 10hrs or so.  I have never seen it triple.  Room temp in my kitchen is anywhere between 68-74*F.

Stretch-and-folds.  I generally follow the Tartine instructions, or some variation, so s&f every 30 min for the first 2 hrs and then I'll add one more in the last hour/1.5 hrs.  That said, recently I've tried other variations since sticking to the book was not solving anything.  So for this loaf, I used a fairly strong initial mixing method that I've seen Trevor J Wilson use to develop gluten (kind of hand scoop stretching--he has a name for it, but I can't remember it).  I folded after 15 min for the first half hour of bulk (so twice), then every 30 min for the next 2 hrs, then I let it rest for an hour before pre-shape.  One thing that I always find interesting is that I tend to see more activity (surface bubbles) on the earlier end of the bulk rise. Then things seem to calm and smooth over by the end, usually with one or two remaining where the container meets the dough.  Not sure what to make of that.

Fridge temp & retard.  That is a really interesting point that I hadn't thought of.  I've measured the temp in my fridge (38*F) but I haven't taken note of the cycles.  I have a thermometer with max/min reads in there now to see if there is anything strange.  After the retard in the fridge, I go essentially straight to the combo cookers.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

1. Try feeding 1:3:3 to make sure that your starter isn't overly acidic although it doesn't sound like it from your descriptions and your routine.

2. Try different final shaping methods. I ended up with a cavern once in my bread and it was due to my shaping. I started degassing the dough a bit for a while to prevent it. I don't do that anymore but I make sure I am not incorporating big bubbles of air when I shape. There are a multitude of shaping videos out there and try different ones to see if shaping is the issue.

_Box's picture
_Box

Thanks Danni3ll3. 

1.  I'll reserve some starter and start a 1:3:3 ratio.  Should I notice expect anything different in its activity (timing, growth, smell, etc.)?  I assume it will retain a grassy/sweet smell given the ratio and not begin to smell vinegary, but should I also expect to see doubling over 12 hrs?  I keep reading about starters that triple or more.  Mine shows good active aeration/bubbling, but I've never seen the starter approach tripling in size.

2.  I think I've watched every shaping video on the internet, lol!  After all of my attempts, I feel like I am getting more confident in how I handle the dough.  As I was just starting out, I spent a lot of effort building up tension, pulling and twisting the dough, so that it resembled the round, proud boules I saw on the internet--maybe that was actually helping to degas.  It's odd though, what I observe in most of the shaping videos I see online is that the real pros shape with a more gentle, swift, and effortless form.  They don't seem to over-work the dough, and obviously they get great results and plenty of tension.  I have tried to mimmic that, and I'm definitely more confident with my motions while handling the dough, but maybe something is awry in my technique or I'm not doing enough to degas.  

_Box's picture
_Box

Thanks Danni3ll3. 

1.  I'll reserve some starter and start a 1:3:3 ratio.  Should I notice expect anything different in its activity (timing, growth, smell, etc.)?  I assume it will retain a grassy/sweet smell given the ratio and not begin to smell vinegary, but should I also expect to see doubling over 12 hrs?  I keep reading about starters that triple or more.  Mine shows good active aeration/bubbling, but I've never seen the starter approach tripling in size.

2.  I think I've watched every shaping video on the internet, lol!  After all of my attempts, I feel like I am getting more confident in how I handle the dough.  As I was just starting out, I spent a lot of effort building up tension, pulling and twisting the dough, so that it resembled the round, proud boules I saw on the internet--maybe that was actually helping to degas.  It's odd though, what I observe in most of the shaping videos I see online is that the real pros shape with a more gentle, swift, and effortless form.  They don't seem to over-work the dough, and obviously they get great results and plenty of tension.  I have tried to mimmic that, and I'm definitely more confident with my motions while handling the dough, but maybe something is awry in my technique or I'm not doing enough to degas.  

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

will do, as all our starters are individuals. Yes, it should still double within the 12 hours unless you have a really slow starter and you may need to feed it several times to get it to speed. 

I also learned on this site that there are “dud” starters. Those are best relegated to the garbage bin and a new starter created. It doesn’t happen often but it does occasionally. 

As to the degassing, I mean just be sure you don’t trap a big air pocket when you shape. I caught myself doing that yesterday so that’s what made me think of that. 

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Just to chime in with my 2c, as someone who's been struggling with this same problem - I think it was due to an underactive starter leading to underproofing. Way too many of my loaves have had this issue - very tight crumb in places, with massive holes at the top. The culprit seems always to have been underproofing (I wasn't particularly careful with when exactly I mixed the starter in - the float test is not a good indicator! Also my starter is a weak one which takes 12h to double), rather than a shaping issue. So the yeast hasn't eaten through enough of the dough to create the networks of air pockets to rise the entire loaf, but there's enough gas to force its way upwards anyway, which creates massive caverns at the top.

Exhibit no. 1

Exhibit no. 2

No. 3

..you guys get the idea. All insufficiently proved.

_Box's picture
_Box

Those loaves look very familiar!  Looks almost exactly like the issue I’m having.  Have you had any success turning things around?  Did you start a new starter from scratch?

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Yeah you should know that there is hope at the end of the tunnel! I am still baking inconsistently, but for my loaves that have succeeded, oftentimes they involve 10% inoculation when the starter has peaked, then a ~2h counter bulk fermentation, about 8-12h in the fridge, another 1-2h counter proof, and then another 8-12h in the fridge, before baking. I am still trying to figure out why that has worked for me when everything else seems not to, but what I think that does is slows down the degradation of my not-great UK-supermarket flour through proteolysis (which is what I think happens as a process of autolysis, which occurs at warmer temperatures!), while still allowing my starter the time to slowly munch its way through the dough and create the air pockets necessary.

But I could be wrong.

Coming at you from the other side of the divide:

As it is now I'm trying to get my starter's strength up to hopefully get it more active through higher feeding ratios. Am trying very hard to get bread that can bake within a day (your bog-standard 3h bulk ferment 3h proof), and so far find myself failing!

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

as you mentioned UK supermarket flour have a look out for Marriage Strong  White Bread flour as it has quite high protein and gets very good results for very reasonable price....I know that a number of Artisan bakers in the UK use the Marriage flour too and has made a difference in my bakes since I used it... Kat

p.s. I produced similar loaves with big holes recently when I got the 'room proof' method utterly wrong and although I had lovely puffy shaped doughs I must have totally judged the room proof wrongly and ended up with 'underproofed' loaves. I think Trevor calls this 'fools crumb' in this book due to underfermentation. I think he also mentions somewhere on the forum that those underfermented loaves have that 'sloped' look with their sides of the loaf.

 

 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I have no experience with this problem. I have never produced anything like that. But I would like to understand what is going on.

This is what I don’t get.

If it is a weak starter, how are the large holes and in the crumb formed. They look like gas pockets to me.

If it is over proofed why didn’t the loaf collapse?

If the loaf is under proofed, how would longer proofing make the large holes smaller?

- disclaimer - When the teacher asked, “does everyone understand” I was the one willing to expose my ignorance and reply, “I don’t have a clue”. I wanted to learn...

Dan

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

a new posting on this theme.  So it is easier to find and the terminology is correct.  I don't feel I'm qualified to do it properly but here, I will make a go at it. 

It involves how the gas bubbles or cells inside the dough form from starting at the beginning of mixing up the dough, through the process of fermenting during the bulking and shaping to how the cells look and behave in a completely deflated dough.  There are changes throughout and baking can lock those changes in time.  A slice of bread becomes a cross section, a window in time.  Naturally baking and steam will effect it, and most often exaggerate what was going on inside the loaf when it was baked.

A loaf that is baked underproofed will have a crumb that is dense with large gas pockets or large pockets surrounded by dense dough with tiny round undersized cells.  When the gas is first forming in the dough it is irregularly distributed and tends to collect as the dough development is young.  Working the dough, that is mixing or folding for kneading, deflating, tends to redistribute these lumps of growing yeast cells resulting in better distribution of gas cells. 

When looking at the crumb, we are naturally drawn to look at the big bubbles, but try to look at the crumb and smaller gas cells between them.    

A dough shaped too early before enough gas is distributed throughout the dough will proof and bake with large bubbles  (which expand in the oven heat resulting in a great spring) only to be surrounded by a crumb that is hard to bake correctly due to its density.  Several ways of feeling the surface of the rising dough can tell you if you have soft spots of big gas bubbles. Cutting the dough with a sharp edge will also reveal the inside distribution during and at the end of bulk rising.  When the gas bubbles seem more uniform in size (pop the big ones) the final shape and proofing can begin. 

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Hm, but then how would you explain Trevor's video where he says that additional stretch and folds are not necessary (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=286&v=zgz0oAhgwyg at 4:41), or in fact, no-knead breads, for that matter? I think once starter has been evenly distributed through the dough (which is what stretch and folds help to ensure), it's simply a question of allowing the yeast time to eat through the bread enough to weaken the dough structure such that it can inflate (i.e. I'm thinking of the difference in extensibility between tight and relaxed gluten, but instead of that you have proofed and underproofed dough). Either way the gas is present, and somehow it has to escape, so what happens I think is that it just finds the points of weakness in the dough and collects there, forming these massive caverns.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Have you tried mixing the Levain thoroughly into the dough water. When mixed there should be no Levain “blobs” left. Just milky water. Then mix that into you flour and salt mixture?

If not, please give it a try and let us know your findings.

Dan

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Yup my first few loaves were made with that method. I honestly don't think it's a question of insufficient distribution of starter, however - I mix my starter in much like how Trevor does it in his 'stiff dough' video - dimple the dough like mad, then roll the starter in from all the edges of the dough into the middle so you get many 'layers' of starter, then knead the heck out of the dough after that.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Mini, I have no problem starting a new post. That’s a good idea. But SpamBlah and _Box have such great images that the post would be lacking without them, IMO. I don’t have images like this and they tell the perfect story.

I’m still not clear on this and I’d really like to have a full understanding. I am not trying to be argumentative. And I am the opposite of a “know it all”. The more I learn about gas bubbles, the better I think I’ll be at forming the crumb I desire. I struggle with consistent large holed open crumb.

I understood you say that when a dough is initially mixed that the yeast are not uniformly distributed within the dough. Because of this large bubbles form. If this is the case, wouldn’t the problem be rectified by S&F or some other dough manipulation to redistribute the gas? I can’t get my head around the under proofing. If the dough is left to BF longer, but there is no further dough manipulation (S&F), how will the gas bubbles divide and migrate?

My constant method for incorporating Levain into the dough goes like this. In a separate bowl I measure out the dough water and then add the required weight of Levain. Then with a wire whip I mix the 2 until they are both fully integrated. Hey! Maybe that’s why I have never had the giant hole in tight crumb problem. What do you think?

Maybe the people with this issue could try mixing their Levain into the dough with this method.

Dan

 

Portus's picture
Portus

... touches upon my query, so you have my interest!

Joe

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/56295/hamelmans-whole-wheat-pain-au-levain

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

was not my intention.  But interesting in its own right. Im talking about the yeast reproducing in the dough in groups, thin cell walls or no gluten between them during fermentation.  Developed dough traps gas.  Folding or dimpling the dough will split up large gas bubbles. Deflating dough with or without help will also split up bubbles.  

 

There are various ways to make gas cells in the dough.  But you have to have them first, then expand them and then heat them up and expand them some more (baking) and then set them and let them cool.  With living organisms, they will be multiplying and producing gas.  There is a logical progression to optimal. then much like a bell curve, the dough over-ferments and dough matrix breaks down, the dough cells break into one another, become irregular and depending on type of dough, gas either escapes suddenly (deflates) or says trapped inside the crust, a baked loaf with a set crust and hollow beneath formed when the weak matrix falls down leaving a layer of dense crumb above the bottom crust.  

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/food-science/dough-development

clazar123's picture
clazar123

The picture the  original poster displayed says "overproofed" to me but not totally. However,there is not enough properly proofed area to bake to get a reasonable loaf. It could possibly have been re-shaped and re-proofed, as long as the yeast had enough "oomph" left. 

When a dough is over-proofed, the large bubbles result from the gluten walls being weakened by time and the walls break, allowing smaller bubbles to merge into single, larger bubbles. The rest of the crumb is nicely proofed but would be going down the same road if left. The best way I can describe a properly proofed crumb is that the bubble sizes in a 1inch x 1 inch area are incrementally sized (except the large ones, of course).

The pics (especially pic #3) by spamblahblah look entirely different to me. It has large bubbles on the top of the loaf but the nature of the rest of the crumb is different. To me this is especially noticeable in picture #3. If you isolate a 1inch x 1 inch area of the crumb, the bubbles are NOT incrementally increased in size. There is a lot of consistent and very small bubbles in a given area. The size of the adjacent bubbles are NOT incremental but more dramatically larger.   It is hard to describe.

 

pmccool's picture
pmccool

Reason 1: There's no "compressed" crumb along the bottom of any of the loaves.  Overproofed loaves frequently show a layer just inside the bottom crust where the crumb was so weakened that it could no longer maintain its integrity and collapsed under the weight of the rest of the loaf.  This layer, which can be 3-5mm thick, shows signs of having had bubbles and is often wetter than the surrounding dough, even though it is immediately adjacent to the crust.

Reason 2: The crust color is excellent in the pictured loaves.  Overproofed loaves often exhibit a pale crust with darker brown blemishes.  It isn't pretty.  The crust on the loaves in the pictures is dark, indicating that there was plenty of sugar still available for caramelization.

I've baked a number of these "Swiss cheese" loaves over the years and underproofing had a significant influence on each of them. 

Paul

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Paul, is this what you wrote about? “This layer, which can be 3-5mm thick, shows signs of having had bubbles and is often wetter than the surrounding dough, even though it is immediately adjacent to the crust.” Zoom in and take a look. The strange thing is it doesn’t run completely across the bottom.

Notice the line in the crumb just above the bottom if the crust.

I just baked this loaf a couple of days ago and didn’t really know what happened.

Dan

pmccool's picture
pmccool

between the compressed zone and the crust.  And yes, it usually runs across the entire loaf.  If that loaf wasn't overproofed, it was probably teetering on the brink. 

Paul

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I THINK an ice cube may have been placed on the stone under the roasting cover. From what you write, it seems more likely that the culprit might be melted water from the ice cube. That would explain why the gum line didn’t go all the way across the bottom.

What do you think?

Dan

pmccool's picture
pmccool

After much deliberation, about three seconds worth, I can safely say that I have never encountered that situation, Dan.  Consequently, I dunno.  Send me check for $500 and you can tell people that you got a professional opinion from a high-priced consultant. 

Paul

HansB's picture
HansB

Shaping?