Another 1-2-3 experiment with too many variables
Greetings to all of you on this lovely day.
Still trying to learn and constantly wanting to try things based on all the wonderful knowledge I'm finding here. So, this weekend, I asked myself what needed work and decided to do a 1-2-3:
- starter predictability: have I figured out when it can be counted upon to mature
- adding rye, just to see…
- sifting out the crunchy bits of whole wheat and whole rye flours and tossing them into the levain
- handling more than 500g of dough flour: learn to divide, shape and score
I'd planned on baking in two DOs, but I'd recently read posts by Dani and DanAyo about liberating themselves from the weight of cast iron. I don't own a graniteware roaster, but I did find two, same-sized roasting pans and wondered "what if"… So I decided to give that a shot, too.
The dough was going to be 15g whole rye, 30g whole wheat, with the remaining 435g divided equally between T65 and T80 flours. Ahem. It turns out that I didn't have enough on hand, and so made up the difference with a bit more stone-ground T80.
Then, per Dani and Dabrownman, I sifted the flours and tossed the hard bits into the levain. Contrary to Dani, however, I didn't recalculate the water for the dough mix.
Starter close to trebled about 6 hours after a 1:1.5:1.5 feeding (as projected) and smelled really nice.
Autolyse: flours and most of the 200g water (reserving 20g to dissolve the salt, and then a little bit more in reserve, rather than add it at once) for about an hour.
Mixed in levain, let sit for 20 minutes.
Mixed in salt solution.
It might have been the sifting, but the dough felt different -- nice!
Bulk ferment at room temperature for about three hours with S&F every half hour for the first two hours.
First time dividing, and that went ok; preshape never went so smoothly -- I could actually form a boule! Bench rest 40 minutes; shape (a bit stickier than the preshape); into baskets; rested on the bench for a half-hour, then into the fridge overnight. Each little pâton weighed 443g.
The next morning, preheated oven with the two roasting trays. After an hour, took the loaves out of the fridge and turned them onto a board AND THEY DID NOT COLLAPSE. Well actually, the bâtardon wilted a little, but I'd blown the shaping the night before. The boulette, however, continued to stand tall. Could actually pick up each loaf and place them in the roasting tray after scoring.
Misted the loaves, put a muffin tin with 2 tbsp water in the tray, baked covered for 25 minutes, then 15 minutes uncovered. The baked boulette weighed in at 373g, the bâtardon 364
I was hoping for more oven spring. And, looking at the crumb, was the dough over- or underproofed? Or just badly shaped? There are bubbles, but they're not very big.
All comments and crits are welcome!
Thanks for reading all the way to here.
The crumb looks pretty darn good to me. I really like lacey and moderately open for eating. The only thing missing for me is the rise. How did the proofing go?
I like your confidence with the starter timing. I think we learn that from diligence and observation. It is great to know that a Levain can be fed differently in order to obtain various times to maturity. It’s great to be in control.
Dan
Just want to say that I enjoy reading your posts; your queries and quest for a better mousetrap are amusing and informative!
Thanks for liking the crumb. It tastes pretty good, as well. But yes, I guess I should've said that I was disappointed in the rise. The proof went quite well, certainly much better than any number of loaves since I started almost two months ago.
Since I think that a lot of my problems with previous loaves has been overproofing, I decided this time to try being a bit more conservative. I may have gone too short on this one, although the dough had grown handsomely and had some lovely bubbles beneath the surface. I was also thinking (wrongly) that things could sort of catch up with themselves during the final proof overnight in the fridge.
It's not really confidence about starter timing; I've been caught short at least twice with the starter being ready before the autolyse had even begun. Thankfully, Lechem said that the mature starter could hang out in the fridge until autolyse was done. Certainly not in control, although I'm learning to be less afraid!
In your experience, have you found any differences between a long cold bulk and a long cold proof?
I think I'm going to repeat the two-roasting-pan method, this time without the little cup of water (which was almost intact when I uncovered the loaves), or do what trailrunner suggests and try to remember to freeze a couple of ice cubes the night before the bake. What think?
Thanks for your input.
Carole
Carole, what is the temperature in your refrigerator?
I’m wondering, can a dough with such a nice open crumb be over proofed? I’d like other to comment on this question.
Another question. When your starter reaches the highest level of rise does it remain at that level for some time before beginning to recede. Estimate time from start of highest rise to beginning to recede. I ask this because it is my understanding that starter that remain at peal level for long times are more tolerant of BF and proofing times.
Dan
Will lower that right now and see what happens at the next bake.
Great catch, Dan -- the last time I had checked, we were at about 4°. I hope this doesn't mean that the fridge is on its last legs. It's just warmed up considerably over the last couple of days, so I need to be careful.
I'll try to remember to monitor peak/recede times on the next build. As it is, my starter just flipped its lid at me when I was in the fridge to take the temp. (It also goes bump in the night; every once in awhile, I hear a muffled thud coming from the fridge!)
Thanks for the insight. So you think I overproofed in the fridge? Even if the loaves didn't go splat as they got turned out of theiir baskets?
If your refrigerator is 4C (39F) I think your good. I believe you get into trouble when the frig is over 40F. Your coldest area will be on the lowest shelf.
LESLIE, what is your refrigertor’s temp? I think I’m @ 38F.
Dan
3 hours is not long though. did you leave dough until doubled? I am finding that 50% increase in volume during BF gives me good result. I don’t leave it on the bench after shaping - I shape, bag and refrigerate overnight then bake straight from the fridge in the morning.
I am just throwing ideas around - maybe worth trying.
Leslie
I dunno, three hours is already pretty short for a bulk ferment, no? No, I didn't leave the dough till it doubled, because I've overproofed before when waiting that long, and somewhere on this site, I seem to remember that when we've got WW involved, we shouldn't wait for the dough to double.
It occurs to me that I did do something a little out of the ordinary. In one of her posts, Mariana suggests that division of the dough should take place almost immediately after mixing. Well, being a lazy cuss, I did the S&Fs on the whole dough, but for the remainder of the BF, divided the dough and put each into separate bowls until preshape. Could that have done anything? Logic tells me no, but then, what do I know?
I will try putting the loaves directly into the fridge on the next round, although I thought that letting them hang out on the bench for a bit would have been beneficial.
Thanks for the suggestions.
played a big part here, I too got caught out by that. I have thought about dividing dough early as you did but haven’t tried that so don’t know how that would change things. A bigger amount would possibly ferment quicker.
yes, I've lowered the thermostat in the fridge and it feels noticeably colder; I need to double check the thermometer as well, since it's still giving me a 10° reading.
So Leslie, if you think the fridge was my problem, should I leave my countertop BF at about 3 hours -- or a 30%-50% rise -- and try final proofing in the fridge again?
Like I said, I didn't suspect overproofing because the loaves didn't go splat when I turned them out of their baskets, although they spread a bit upon hitting the hot roasting tray.
Do you think the little muffin tin of water inside the covered trays was overkill?
Thanks both for your guidance.
I find the dough much better to handle than if it goes a lot higher. As I said earlier, I proof almost all my doughs in the fridge overnight so if you have the temperature around 4 deg C it should be fine. I haven't tried adding that extra water for the bake in a little container or using a couple of iceblocks, I keep forgetting but it is supposed to help get that oven spring. If it helps why not?
You may need to remeasure your fridge temperature after it has been set colder for a day or so. I got a better reading the day after - it may just need time for it to all cool down sufficiently. Have you got another thermometer you can use to check?
Leslie
perhaps I'll try for 70%-80%, although all of this is so approximate. Ah, next experiment: pull off a bit of dough and put it in a small, straight-sided container to try and get a better idea of how much the dough is growing.
I suppose that as the weather wams up, I'll probably try to retard both the BF and FP in the fridge, so it'll be nice to sort things out now.
Thanks for all the ideas.
Till soon,
but I have actually gone back to proofing the whole dough in a straight sided container and find it easier to judge % increase.
It doesn’t get so hot where I live in New Zealand so I have never done both BF & proof in 5he fridge. others do so though, but it may well impact on 5he flavour profile.
Happy baking
Leslie
Carole, if the rise is your concern, you could bake your next dough in a loaf pan or some other container that constrains the sides from spreading out. If it is a proofing issue, I would think the bread won’t rise. It could even collapse. If it does rise (I suspect it will), you can look into other issues. My problem with the over proofing scenario is the open crumb and the large gas pockets in the crumb shot you posted. Forget about the flat looking bread for a minute and take a look at your crumb. It is beautiful. Can such a beautiful crumb be produced from an over proofed dough?
NOW, could it be under proofed? I really don’t know. I’d really like to read the opinion of others.
I struggle with developing enough surface tension at times. In my case, I suspect weak or weakened gluten. Still working to get past this, so I’m no expert.
Anybody agree or disagree with the pan idea. I don’t want to send Carole on a wild goose chase :D
UPDATE: Maybe I’m way off base. I just did a web search for images of over proofed and under proofed bread. Try the searches, there are a bunch of images that might help. I hope to learn more about this.
Dan
I like that you think my crumb is beautiful. I could agree that the bubble structure looks pretty good, but everything looks so small! But this definitely doesn't look like my other overproofed loaves (and believe me, there have been more than I care to count). So, maybe underproofed or perhaps badly shaped. Although, as I said, this time the loaves kept their shape as they were turned out of the baskets; it was when they hit the hot roaster that they spread slightly.
I'd given the second loaf to a friend, who was kind enough to send me a crumb shot:
It would seem that the middle is a good bit tighter than the edges, so would that be underproofed?
Also, on the longer loaf, the fact that the score spread the way it did would indicate some kind of oven spring, no?
I could repeat this experiment and go back to individual DOs rather than two loaves in one vessel. OR I could bake one loaf in the two-roasting pan hack and the other in a DO, just to see. Unfortunately, in that case, there will be one loaf that will have proved 40 minutes longer.
What think?
I really don’t know what to think. But I’m very interested in the opinions of others.
quite a bit! Thanks for the little gray cells. We'll see what the next bake brings.
Carole
Looks great to me. I mean that!
Risen well and a nice crumb.
If you wish to go into the science of the crumb and aim for something else then I believe that's all in the bulk ferment (and of course how it's handled when shaped but taking that as done properly) as to what the final crumb comes out like. We all know there's a range for a bulk ferment. Some recipes say doubled, some say 50% and others less. Well this affects the final crumb too. Irregular, regular, lattice etc.
and it helps to put things into perspective: these are still miles better than the Frankenloaf from a couple of weeks ago, huh? I'll keep telling myself it can only get better! I'd like to get to a point where I can produce loaves that I'm proud to share.
Toodles.