The Fresh Loaf

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didn't know my levain would start bubbling so fast!

pcake's picture
pcake

didn't know my levain would start bubbling so fast!

about an hour ago, i put 10 grams of bubbly, active spelt starter together with 225 grams white spelt flour and 215 grams filtered water, mixed them and covered the bowl with cling film to wait for them to ferment.  it was a whim, and the bread recipe uses whole grain while i'm going with white, so who knows what will happen?  well, you might, but my successful breads so far have been soda breads and yeast breads.  this could be a crash and burn, but i just got it in my head to try it.

anyway, the mixture is already bubbling happily - i had no idea it would start to ferment so fast!  

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Even for spelt. How warm is it where you are? And by bubbling what do you mean? Is it really active or just starting to show bubbles? 

I'd drop the hydration of the dough if substituting wholegrain spelt for white spelt. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

A feeding ratio of 1:21:22 should take longer even with ideal temperatures.  Sounds like something powerful is going on and it ain't yeast.   How does it smell?

pcake's picture
pcake

so last night it was about 78 in the kitchen.  the bubbles were across the entire top, and i used a wide bowl, but fhey weren't as close together as after i feed the starter, and there weren't many bubbles on the sides.

i was substituting white spelt for whole grain spelt (in fact, from your fancy schmancy bread).  the starter has been feeding off whole grain.

i hadn't been to bed yet when i posted, so i stuck the bowl in the fridge because i really needed some sleep.  i just pulled it out, but since it was cold, it doesn't smell very much, probably because it's cold.  it doesn't smell bad or odd as far as i can tell - i'll check again when it's warmed up.  it hasn't changed color.  the starter it's from was actually a breadtopia starter that smells pleasant and grows when feed, recedes when not.  normal color.  

the pic is after around 2 hours at 76 degrees, then several hours in the fridge.

i have no idea what this should look like when the levain is ready to go or whether mine has evil forces at work.  i've seen a million pics of starter and finished loaves, not many (none that i can recall) of the levain in the fermenting stage.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

And the bowl is wide then I'm thinking airbubbles when stirring being more obvious. It may be on its way to fermenting too as it's spelt and warm it's just more apparent when not in a tall jar. Looks quite hydrated too which will speed things up. I'm just throwing out ideas here. 

I think do your best and troubleshoot later. Depending on what build you're doing that'll give you a good idea of when it'll be ready. Go by smell too. When it smells yeasty and has a lovely aroma coming off it then that's a good sign it's ready. 

Best of luck with the fancy schamncy bread. Looking forward! 

pcake's picture
pcake

i hadn't stirred it when the bubbles appeared.  

i semi chickened out - i underproofed it and threw it in the oven.  mini got me nervous, too - what if there's some random other bacteria involved? 

i'm gonna do it again later in the week, this time with less water and more flour at the outset, and i'll wait till it smells the way my starter does, which smells yeasty and good unless it's hungry.  

regarding the smell, is that when it's time to through in the flour and water and the rest from step 2?

pcake's picture
pcake

it could have used more time for more flavor development, but was only a little under-proofed.  i was so sure it would be a disaster that i didn't bother to score it, though, so it held together till it burst, giving it an odd shape.  i baked it at only 400 degrees f because that was the temp of the sandwich bread i baked before it, and i wasn't focusing.  and with all that, it tastes good and came out well.  and i actually made it in a loaf pan - even with less water and a little more flour, the white spelt made a very slack dough, and the loaf pan held it together nicely. 

next time, i'll trust in my nose, hold back more water, remember to score it, and i think i can make a mighty tasty fancy schmancy bread!  stay tuned...

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the kind that often form as the levain is being stirred up, the mixing of culture into water and flour.  When they made their way to the top, it looked like activity.  Trust your nose!  You can throw a wrung out damp dish towel over the standing  covered starter overnight to keep it cooler during the night and avoid the fridge if you think that might work better.  

Sounds like you'll be fine watching the starter.  Wait for those familiar yeasty aromas. :). Sorry about the scare.  

I picked up a cane "crown" banneton Saturday on sale for just under €5. Can't wait to try it out!   Could easily use a small glass in a regular banneton but always curious to see if there's a differenhce.

pcake's picture
pcake

i stir very gently, and the bubbles started appearing over half an hour after i left it alone and continued to develop.  that's when i posted, here, and they kept appearing, but if i'm waiting for that wonderful smell, i won't worry about what causes the bubbles.  it was 75 to 76 degrees 24.44c) in my kitchen at 3 am - i was trying to do it overnight.  next time, i won't worry about time at all, just smell, but since this my first time, i was flying blind.  thanks to you both, Lechem and Mini Oven, for your mentoring!  it's amazing how much my baking has changed in just over a month.  

i just looked up crown banneton, and that looks like it's going to make some really cool breads!  i look forward to the pics :)

btw, i just had another piece of the not-so-fancy-schmancy bread with neufchatel cheese - it was heaven on a plate!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

for a one to twenty feeding, a good twelve hours.  there should be a long lag time before one sees bubbles as the yeast numbers are roughly doubling about every hour and a half.  Then the activity starts leaping, with volume increases noted every hour.  As time progresses under ideal conditions, so do the yeast numbers, exponentially!    Ex: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64. Depending on type of flour and apparent hydration, the volume can easily be tenfold so be prepared for (a mess) lots of headroom to contain the new batch of starter.  I would even stack the starter inside another larger bowl (we can always dream!)

Mini

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

is not often used because it can result in a very sour tasting bread.  Funny how that is. One would at first think the opposite.

Bacterial activity will increase when the pH rises from its stable state.  Both flour and water will raise the pH of the starter culture and stimulate all bacterial activity.  The higher the pH is raised the more it stimulates all bacteria both in the flour and in the sourdough starter culture.  The rise you witnessed could vary well have been bacterial activity and then the catching up of the yeast activity as they sort of leap frog over each other in trying to populate the dough.  A good starter culture bacteria will soon dominate the culture and lower the pH (make it more acid) even if bad bacteria is trying to grow.  This is normal and the culture bacteria is thus protecting itself (and us) from a little invasion.  The culture bacteria and yeast varieties work together in a symbiotic relationship to survive.  

Mini

pcake's picture
pcake

having a variety of thoughts after reading your two posts.

it does make sense that small amounts of starter leaves the dough open to a variety of other bacterias, and i surely don't want to eat random opportunistic bacteria in my bread!!!  

btw, the pics don't look like it, but i used a VERY large bowl for the levain - enough for it to rise 4x without going over.

so i need to consider what percentage of the levain flour the starter should be considering i'd rather have a shorter fermentation period if possible and don't like super sour bread.  as i look up starter percentages or amounts, everyone has their own preference, but i'm too new to have a preference.

KA recommends these amounts in this recipe - that's a lot of starter! - but considering it has a fermentation/rest period of only 40 minutes, not sure whether it has time to develop to true sourdough.  but it IS a lot of starter, and my starter makes quick work of twice it's weight in flour, so maybe it makes sense?

https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/basic-sourdough-bread-recipe
2 1/2 cups King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour
2 cups ripe (fed) sourdough starter
1/2 cup lukewarm water

while this one from cultures for health also uses what seems like a lot of starter, and while it has a long rise, it doesn't seem to have a fermentation period first

https://www.culturesforhealth.com/learn/recipe/sourdough-recipes/basic-sourdough-bread/
2 1/3 cups fresh sourdough starter
3 1/3 cup flour
1-1 1/2 cup water

ken forkish and jeffrey hamelman both use 20% starter in their early recipes (i just checked), so i guess i'll try that for a basic loaf in a couple days.

my current starter bubbles 300% to 400% of its weight in flour in under an hour, and within a couple hours it's usually risen quite a bit and smells good.  but it's a very hungry starter - my previous one never needed that much flour and wasn't so quick to fall after rise, which also wasn't as fast.  i wonder how much that matters.  i guess i'll find out over time.