The Fresh Loaf

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Shaggy Dough

nickg's picture
nickg

Shaggy Dough

I tried to loaves this weekend. Both ended up REALLY shaggy and impossible to actually shape into a boule. It was basically soup. 

It weirdly went through all of the other phases seemingly normal. Autolyse, mixing and S&F–the texture seemed right– and then rose during bulk fermentation normally. But when it came time to shape the sough and I removed it from the bucket it was essentially a puddle on the counter. One dough was at 82% hydration, the other 78%.

I could go into more detail with recipes if needed, but is there a common mistake that can cause this to happen? Starter too weak? Room to hot?, etc.?

Thanks in advance!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

And/or over fermented. 

More details needed! 

nickg's picture
nickg

Thanks!

hreik's picture
hreik

How many stretch and folds and over what period of time?  What kind of flour?  The protein %age of the flour.  That and any pics would help.

78 and 82% are macho hydration.  The only time I ever got away w that high hydration was when doing a heavy, grainy bread. 

hester

nickg's picture
nickg

All flour is King Arthur brand. I've had success with breads using hydration levels in the 70-78% range in the past, so I am trying to find the culprit here.

First Bake (2 loaves)
Going from memory on this, I didn't keep notes for this bake.

Levain Build

50g Starter
100g Bread Flour
100g Whole Wheat Flour
200g water @85ºF

Final Dough

900g Bread Flour
100g Whole Wheat Flour
20g Salt
820g water ~85ºF
225g Leavin (Young Levain)

1hr Autolyse which included the leavain.

4-5 S&F every half hour

5hr bulk ferment

---------------------------------

Second Dough (1 loaf)

Levain Build

13g starter
50g White AP Flour
13g WW Flour
63g water @ 85ºF

Final Dough

302g White AP Flour
138g Whole Wheat Flour
329g water ~85ºF
11g Salt
108g Levain

Autolyse Flour and water
Mix salt and levain into flour and water.

This one I was only able to get probably 1 fold in during the first hour and then another 2 about 5 hrs later that evening.

14hr bulk ferment overnight on counter. 

 

bikeprof's picture
bikeprof

One person's puddle is another's everyday dough, so pictures and further description of the dough would help.  Have you worked much with doughs with that much water before?

If your process seems on track, then your dough breaks down, then over-fermentation/ proteolytic breakdown are likely culprits.  Also, given a 14hr bulk at room temp with that much levain, I would expect to get a puddle with the second dough.

I will add that I have had a couple bags of KA flour that broke down early in the process no matter what, and I chalked it up to high enzyme activity...but I think you are just letting your bulk go to far.  Note that dough ferments more quickly at higher hydrations (and with more whole grains), so you likely need to cut back the time, the temp, and/or the levain.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

83% hydration (taking the levain into account) is very high indeed! For that dough I'd say too hydrated. 

At 22.5% levain a 5 hour bulk ferment might very well be ok but if it's really warm where you live it could be a tad too much. And I hope you've included the hour autolyse as that's when the levain went into the dough. If not then it's a 6 hour bulk ferment with one hour minus the salt. Could very well be too much if it's a warm day. 

The second dough is more confusing. 24% levain with a 14 hour bulk ferment on the counter? If I did that I'd also end up with a puddle.

hreik's picture
hreik

I'd have a wet mess with 14 hour bulk fermentation even at 62ºF, with that hydration... maybe even w 70% hydration I'd have a problem.  It's always tricky.

Recently I tried to combine recipes using a higher %age of levain in a recipe that I'd done previously.  The usual bulk fermentation was 6 hours.  This time that same dough (now with more levain ) in 6 hours  was way over proofed.  When you fiddle with one variable, you have to adjust the others.  So next time I try that combination I'll shorten the time that I bulk ferment if I'm using a higher levain percentage.

hester

nickg's picture
nickg

Overall it seems like too long of a bulk fermentation for the amount of levain I was using. 

Considering I was following recipes from a book and a pretty well-established blog, I think that temperature definitely played a big part here. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

78% seems about right and 83% too much.  Just add some bench flour to it till it feels right again and all would be well.  Knowing what it should feel like and knowing hat to do when it doesn't just takes experience and time.  With that much prefermeted flour in the levain and 5 hours for bulk I would have soup at 78% hydration here in AZ so watch the dough and not the clock.