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What is the impact of Bulk Ferment timing on Final Baking Size and Timing

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

What is the impact of Bulk Ferment timing on Final Baking Size and Timing

I have been experimenting quite a bit with a pretty conventional sourdough formula, and have a general question about how far I let the dough go in Bulk Ferment ( BF ) and the impact on final proof timing and size of finished loaf.

Does the amount of increase in volume during BF have an impact on how big it will get when baked?  I have read somewhere that a bread will never rise greater than BF -  so if you stop BF at 1 1/2 volume of the dough at end of kneading, it will never get past that when baked. I reread Hamelman Bread and don't see anything on that, not much really on how to judge when BF is done,  other than the volume suggestions in the individual recipes.  I know from Jasons Ciabatta, that I BF to triple volume, then fp.  My question is  would I get the same size any airiness of a ciabatta if I stopped BF at double the original volume?

Second, and this may only apply to using a sourdough starter, but does the extensiveness of BF have an impact on the timing of final proof?    If I let BF go till the dough has nearly tripled in volume, then I do a preshape, and redistribute the yeast, will there be much more yeast activity - and thus a shorter FP, than if I stop BF when the volume is only 1 1/2 original size.    I assume that If I completely overshoot BF I may have yeast die out or slow down due to lack of food, but other than that,  is there some impact?  I would love to judge FP by the poke test, but with 100% WW, I find the poke test extremely unreliable. Since my proofer holds the temp pretty constant, I am hoping to be able to establish the best timing, but realized that if development during BF has an impact, it will be hard for me to isolate the best time for FP.

By way of background, my formula is 500 grams whole wheat flour ( home milled )  400 grams water,  15 grams starter ( 100%  hydration ) and 10 grams salt.  Process is mix all ingredients and knead 6 minutes in DLX  mixer ( either windowpane or quite close) then into a proofer at 84 f for 11 hours  .  The 11 hours covers when I leave for work, then return.  Then preshape, rest 20 minutes at RT, then final proof 1 hour 15 minutes in proofer then bake.

The first few times, I used fresh flour, which is probably around 80 degrees, so the dough was fairly warm going into the proofer, had tripled in volume by the time I got home, then proofed 1 hour, got plenty of oven spring and pretty light, but from the large ears, I guessed I could have final proofed more.

Next time, I used flour I stored in the freezer,  so I got a cooler final dt,  so after 11 hours in the proofer, it was more like 2 1/2 times increase in size.  I used a FP of 1 1/2 hours, and got very little oven spring, no ears, but the bread was larger and lighter than the first time.

Third time I used Ice water and flour from the freezer, so an even lower final DT, decreased the starter a little , and in 11 hours got basically a doubling in volume,  FP for 1 :15,  got no oven spring, and very dense loaf, which is the opposite of what I expected.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.  

 

tgrayson's picture
tgrayson

"I have read somewhere that a bread will never rise greater than BF -  so if you stop BF at 1 1/2 volume of the dough at end of kneading, it will never get past that when baked."

No, that's absurd. You don't have to bulk ferment at all, so if the rule were true, then there'd be no rise during proofing. Likewise, if you do a bunch of stretch and folds during bulk ferment, you may not get much volume increase before you're ready to proof.

"but does the extensiveness of BF have an impact on the timing of final proof?"

Probably...there may be more yeasties around, but the dough might be warmer, too.

 

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

This is a constant area of study for me, too. You should pick up Trevor J WIlson's e-book. He will give you more information on this subject than you'd ever dream of.  www.breadwerx.com

 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Great idea,  does he deal with whole wheat at all?  Unfortunately, I find that most things I read deal with bread flour or AP.  I usually use them only when trying out a new recipe, and with bread flour it will work flawlessly, as I shift to all whole wheat, things start going off the rails. 

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I guess the defining 'answer' is that you want to bulk ferment until the population of yeast is increased enough, but not to the point where they are completely exhausted. And that depends on so many things, like temperature, type of yeast, type of flour, other things like bacteria and salt and ingredients that inhibit yeast, etc.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Thanks, that suggests that when you hit the optimum  population , you will get the shortest  final proof, and that if I stop BF too early, FP will take much longer. What I am struggling with is how to determine when I have reached that point.  I understand that timing won't work, because that depends on too many variables, but am struggling with volume, since depending on the recipe, I see suggestions of 1 1/2 to 3 times increase, but no explanation for that variation.  

tgrayson's picture
tgrayson

Getting the shortest final proof is not really a useful goal.

But you shouldn't be going on the percent volume increase in the bulk fermentation. Use the finger-poke test to know when the max volume has been achieved.

Even so, that only works assuming no folding or punching down.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Actually, the goal is not the shortest final proof.  My goal was to find the optimal stage to stop BF .  I was more than willing to do experiment after experiment to see, for this particular flour, what the optimal stage was ( by measuring increase in volume at BF ) but it now seems clear that since I can't keep FP constant,  the results will not be very meaningful, since they will be effected by FP.   I have used the poke test with bread flour and have no problems, with wheat, it doesn't work as well for me. 

giancaem's picture
giancaem

For me at least. I've been baking for the longest time using volume as a guide. For un-enriched sourdough breads (just flour water salt and SD starter) I've found that 30-40% is a good place to be at.  Going further than that might weaken the gluten structure more than necessary. Enriched white breads can go up to 100% no problem. If you keep your BFs within that range, you can play with your proofs to determine the optimal time. I usually retard mine at 3C for about 12-18h with good results.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Thanks,  I have a loaf in BF  now  and pulled it earlier than I normally would to see about your suggestion .