Starter may be proteolitic (?), can it be saved?
Hi:
My starter may be proteolitic (?) based on what I've read. Do you all think it's possible to fix this?
My bread doesn't seem to bulk or proof properly at all, resulting in limp dough. This is the third starter that's doing this! Very frustrated. I've tried using a small innoculation (as small as 5% to dough flour), and as high as 20%, and ranged temps between 65-85. With smaller innoculation and colder temps, the bakes are dense, flat, gummy. With larger innoculations, I varied time and temp, I get dough that spreads out, has some crumb, but is not airy at all - I've been sticking to 68% hydration, 1.7% salt. Crust is a bit pale with higher innoculations, but not always. Flour is good flour - I've been using central milling flour ordered from their website (few on hand, the type 70 and the artisan bakers), or organic KABF. Most of the mixing is done on low speed in a viking mixer for 5-6 minutes, medium-ish gluten development.
Starter:
100% rye starter using vitamix milled whole rye berries. I kept it fed 1:2:2 over two weeks at 85F, and had it doubling in roughly 4 hours time. After two weeks, I converted it to NMNF starter.
In each case, I take out a small piece, do the three-stage build of the levain at 80-85F. It doubles, it floats.
After several weeks in the fridge, the starter itself smells like isopropyl alcohol. This aroma is getting to the levain a little bit.
I really don't want to make another starter. You all think I can fix this somehow? I can do more tests, but the fancy flours I've got are expensive, I hate wasting them like this.
It's either this, or my water. My tap water is a bit on the alkaline side, at 8.2pH.
Thanks for your time!
Could it be your water is too soft? Try food grade gypsum (calcium sulfate] at 0.03% (baker's percentage). You can get this at a supplier for home brewers.
Ford
I tested my water a while back, it is over 300ppm, and with a fish test kit does have hardness (I forget the number), I have a water filter pending installation, I just haven't had a chance to do it because it'll be more work that I have time for right now (long story!). WHen I tested the water filter, it brought the pH to about 6.7, the ppm to 220, and cleans up the hardness.
Maybe I should try to make bread with bottled water to see what happens, just for laughs. I don't think it will.
Do a test bake with commercial yeast instead of leaven at a standard rate, eg 0.6% IDY for a straight dough.
This will confirm that your flour and water are good.
Lance
Thanks for this suggestion! We can rule out water and flour issues, the bread turned out light and airy. Bland since I just did a straight-up basic formula to test this, but at least we can blame the starter.
Well a starter is acidic. If you start feeding it alkaline water then I can see an issue. I'd source some bottled water that is PH neutral and try that. As for an issue going on within the starter other than the water problem this would be a case for Debra Wink. Drop her a message and see if she can help.
try a bigger feed and cooler temps... 76°F. 1:4:5 and when it is about a third risen to peak rise, chill it. If you've never let a rye starter reach peak, then do so and see how high it can rise. Then take some of that starter about an hour after it starts to level out and fall, feed it again 1:4:5. (Chill and/or use the discard for a loaf.) When the newly fed fridge starter is a third risen (33% more volume) chill it. Wait about 4 days before using it to inoculate levains. The mature discard on the other hand, can be used right away or fed more flour to defer use to another day.
Thank you! First run required 12 hours to get many many holes at 76F and 1:4:5 (rise was hard to tell given I prepped it last night half asleep and used too large a container). I was surprised it took so long. I think I will run with this for a few days, maybe try bread with the discards, all before chiling it. I'm actually finally optimistic given results following Lance's suggestion.
sounds like weak yeast. A few feeds at the cooler temp should help the yeast. The time to peak should speed up with each fresh discard/feeding until the starter is predictably taking about 8 hours to peak. This would then be put on a twelve hour feeding schedule with a small rest between feeds between 73° and 76° F.
You can gradually lower the ratios and temps to fit your needs as long as the starter bounces back when you want it to work hard.
I think the starter problem arose when the feedings (low ratios) were too low for the warmer temperatures. The yeasts were going thru the food too fast and underfed to the point of starving the starter. If you want to use 85°F to speed up the starter, no problem it just has to be fed more food while doing so. This can happen with seasonal changes as well.
Third feeding already starting to look good, and smell better. I'll run the course out until it is consistent, and be back in about a week.
This actually brings up a question I've always had - at what point does one bake bread, following fermenting cycle? I'm seeing a simile between starter and dough, here, with rise/fall of the starter. Let's assume stable temp, a linear rise, no cold ferment/retard, and a 1:5:5 starter feeding gives a peak at 8 hours. 1:5:5 is a 20% innoculation. So, build a levain that is 20% of bread's flour, and make dough. Although the dough has a different hydration, where in the life cycle are you supposed to bake the bread? At peak, a little before peak, somewhere well before peak, after peak?
What separates starters from bread dough soon becomes apparent. Ingredients and the two major changes going on in the dough. Without writing a book, I can tell you that once a starter peaks and falls it will rise again. Not all the food is used up but doing this same exercise with a bread dough is a bit more risky. There are good reasons for adding folds for additional dough strengthening. This however throws off a direct comparison.
If I were to make a time line for the starter from mixing to peak with a slight falling. Let's say that takes 8 hours. That's a rye starter. Now compare to a dough. Mixing a rye dough (100%) will give you the closest comparison, but it contains salt...so it will be a little bit slower. I would then say bake well before peak, perhaps the 6 hour mark, letting the oven heat expand the dough more for an oven spring. By the time the bread is done baking, the forthcoming peak will be set with heat. Whether the dough is retarded or not this rye dough will self destruct in about 8 hours. That is why the sourdough starter should contain active natural yeast to get it risen before the working time expires.
Now let's take that same time line and use wheat flour instead for the bread dough. Once a fair amount of wheat is added to rye, the properties change and they do so proportionally. You no longer have a dough that will self destruct in 8 hours. Wheat gluten will degrade more slowly so there is more working time, so you will be able to work with it longer if you decide to retard the dough. You can also deflate it more while it rises and fold the gluten more to strengthen it. Then the answer becomes before peak, as the wheat gluten will hold gasses longer and rise more. Keep in mind that when the dough rises during the bulk rise, a single maximal rise of "double" is still far from a "peak."
Two big things to keep track of while playing and watching the dough... 1) how quickly is the gas forming and being trapped inside the matrix? and 2) how fast is the dough falling apart as the fermenting is progressing?
Bake the dough while it is still trapping gas and has potential to rise more in the oven heat. Bake before the dough deteriorates to the point of releasing all the gas trapped inside of it.
Baking at peak usually means the dough will deflate while baking.
Baking after peak means you baked a deflated mature starter. Brick territory. Better to rethink, combine with fresh unyeasted dough and go for another rise. :)
Hi: a week of consistent feeding, 1:5:5, the 100% rye starter was very predictable, smell was good and no longer like isopropyl alcohol. I'm still not sure about timing, so I used the timing table to give me a starting place since I am still not sure how to "read" the dough. For my bread test, I prepped the starter at 1:4:4 to make sure it'd be at peak.
Tried a 68% hydration (excluding starter flour), 20% inoculation, 2% salt. Bulk was 9.5 hours, proof was 3.5 hours (table suggested 4.5 hours). Shaping was actually a bit tough, dough was stickier than expected. Everything was at 76F. I bake with a stainless steel bowl over a stone, since I don't have a dutch oven. My oven is gas, so traditional steaming doesn't work well.
Accidentally let it bake too long, "bold" crust :) The resulting loaf was very light, but no oven spring. It's the best result so far, crumb was not dense. I cannot tell yet if this was over proofed/fermented, didn't degass enough after the bulk, starter still not strong enough, didn't develop the gluten enough or maybe too much. Oi.. so many variables :/ Interesting thing, also, first time I've actually had a "sour" tasting bread. It was a pleasant sour/tang, too. Neat.
Good news is that the starter seems to work well for long, cool-temp rises. This was 24 hour bulk / 24 hour proof at ~63F with 2% inoculation - neopolitan style. Excuse the pineapple, it's my favorite topping with salame and pickled jalapenos :p
Looks great !
Pineapple! - that's it, help desk suspended! ;-)