My Quest for Oven Spring (in-depth information)

It's hard to overproof at bulk especially considering you are starting with a decent low quantity of yeast.  You could punch down that dough and do 3 more bulks before the yeastof food. Over proofing happens at the final proof where ima short time the gases start permeating the cell walls - one hour is a long time to final proof a yeastrd bread and in a warm environment you could probably go to 25 minutes. I will final my dough for 30-40 minutes at about 70f while the dough is sti cold from refrigerated bulk and of I go 5-10 minutes too far the loaf will flatten out. One thing you need to remember with commercial yeast is that you need to control that last phase with impeccable timing and of some right it will explode upwards. Keep in mind that if you do space out and go over you can always reshape and start the final again. Seriously 1 hour at 85f I would expect pancakes !

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Btw looks like you are making progress and the loaves look good you got the determination that is required and you are show to hit the spot soon. Point number one, big loaves are only going to add to the challenge maybe try scaring down on size. Next about oven temp, there's no mention of temp - keeping in mind the hotter the better especially for the first phase of the bake it almost as though you can go too high, crank it up to 475 or more (depends on your equipment but often time of the dial reads 450 there's a good chance it's 375 after all the fussing that goes with loading etc

Ok sorry you did mention 220c. That's actually on the low side - 250 is more ideal - what are you baking on - if the bottom requires cutting because it's burned that sounds like its been baked on steel. Ideally a stone heated to 480f / 250c should do the trick ;)

Souz, it is obvious that you are extremely serious about learning to bake bread. I am no bread master, but I have turned out some nice loaves. Kendal is very accomplished baker. We can all learn from him.

I like the videos that Trevor Wilson puts out. The video link below is using a 65% hydration, which would be a good place to start. You may want to take a look.  He works with a lot of wet doughs, but wait until to learn the basics before trying them.

https://youtu.be/WxfbiGto4R8

It appears to me, from watching your videos that you need to concentrate on developing stronger gluten development. The video I referenced above should help. The dough is over proofed. When testing don’t push too hard. You wouldn’t want to degas the dough any. And the depression in the dough should mostly come out in a few seconds. If the dough looses its spring it has lost too much of its gas and it won’t rise in the oven. It may even collapse. It’s much better to under proof than over proof because the bread should rise (spring) in the oven.

Suggestion; I noticed from your video that you dump the banneton over onto the bench. I think you’ll get better results if you lift the dough by the cloth and remove it from the basket. Then you can gently turn the dough out onto the bench. After that, carefully peel back the cloth from the dough.

I’m also thinking that the dough hydration may be a little too wet for a new baker trying to learn. Hopefully others will comment about this. Wet dough is a challenge.

Maybe bread flour, which would make a stronger dough migh be a good idea at first.

It’s Christmas day so help may be delayed.

We are here to help. Good Luck.

Dan

after watching just two videos.

hydration way too high for a beginning baker.

way too much flour on the bench when folding.  You are introducing fresh flour into dough by picking it up from the bench and folding it in.  This prohibits the dough from forming bonds across the Folds, which is half the purpose of the Folds.  the other half is to redistribute the gases.

try using a coating of water on the bench instead of flour.

use a curved plastic dough scraper to release dough from the bowl.  You are tearing the dough.  after the initial mixing, spray a light coating of oil into the fermenting bowl which will allow the dough to release from the bowl without tearing.

during final shaping there is so much flour on the workbench that the dough is sliding across it instead of the bench catching and tightening the boule.

Hi. Another new baker/user over here. I would recomend you to go for a lowest hydratation recipe. Wet dough are specially dificult for beginners, as Trevor Wilson say in his open crumb with stiff dough video. It requires time to adquire the skills to work with high hydratation doughs and is easy to make poorly formed loafs with bad structure that will not retain gases and get overproofed, resulting in bad ovenspring... Have been there. Don't know if that's your proble, but it will be good to consider it.

kneading the dough actively (traditional method or slap and fold) is also pretty usefull. In a few bakings you would be able to realice when the gluten is well developed and how long it takes to.

Hope this helps. Greetings from Venezuela. (Sorry for possible bad english).

Forgot to advice to use 65% hydratation doughs to start baking, as Trevor Wilson says. Then, when feeling comfortable with the feeling, increment the dough by 5%, and so. That's the way i'm doing it, and it works for me. 

I can't help you with the oven spring since I'm struggling with that myself but I must say your crumb looks really good! 

Especially considering that these are your first loaves! Any loaf that you can eat is a good loaf!

I've been a strict devotee of Jim Lahey (mostly because of a lack of time) and have used his technique for years. Now years later what I teach people is to follow his instructions extremely precisely. There is no need to go crazy with folding, kneading, or anything else. Its a minimalist technique that works extremely well.

At forst I will suggest that you watch his video ver and over, and even watch his updated video (the one with a tiny amount of red wine vinegar). Compare that to what you are doing. In my experience 99% of folks are varying something that is causing their problem and once they correct that error the loaves come out just fine. This recipe is designed for high hydration doughs, it needs all that sedan inside the Dutch Oven to work properly. I have done this exact recipe, varying only the hydration from 65% to 85% and all my loaves came out fine. I prefer the 75% to 85% loaves but that is a matter of personal taste. All high hydration loaves are a sticky mess, they are supposed to be exactly hat, theres is noting wrong with your dough. More likely the problem is the high temperatures in your kitchen or your handling. When most beginners try to transfer the dough and do the simple folds they mess it up. Either they handle the dough a lot or they don't flour the kitchen towel that is used for the transfer. You definitely don't want to add a lot of flour to outer the stickiness because eaten makes the duration level drop a lot, just dust the towel with barely enough so it doesn't stick during the transfer. I now don't even bother with those folds, I just transfer it and get great loaves with heat rise.

There is another way to combat the heat (I love in a high altitude desert and have no problems baking when its very hot outside) but what I suggest is that you keep practicing, if you can't make to work the way you want it the let me know and I'll offer you an alternative method (still based on Lahey's technique) that might work better in your conditions.

Looks like you are making good progress. The improvement from the first bread you posted and this one is remarkable. It rose well and the crumb is opening up. This is a great start.

How does it taste?

I’m not sure about the strength of your flour, but you should expect to bake good bread with your room temperature. You can reduce yeast or starter, use cold water, use your refrigerator for some of the time during bulk ferment or proofing, keep your bowl in a cool place as low as possible (cooler down low). These are some of the things that come to mind.

As for as flour strength. Try to find a local bakery, tell them what you are doing. Ask to buy some of their flour, maybe.

Consider this - - - I know how exciting it is to try different recipes. But if you want to sharpen your baking skills in the most efficient manner, I strongly suguest that you find a recipe that you want to bake and the stick with it until you are confident that you can consistently bake it well. It’s really the best way to learn.

I’m excited to see your progress. Determination is a required characteristic that all successful baking must posses.

Your latest YouTube link does not work for me.

Keep us informed.

Dan

After viewing the video, I like the way your dough looks. I’d bake that. But I am not an authority and I’m forever learning myself. If anything it looks like it might be very, very slightly underproofed. I always err on going a little underproofed if in doubt. A slightly underproofed dough will spring in the oven, but a dough that is overproofed has spent all of its energy. It can’t rise anymore; not on the bench, not in the oven.

In the future, I f you find that your dough is overproofed you may be able to rescue it by reshaping and reproofing. It’s worth a try. But by far the best thing is to not overproof.

In your last post you said, ”Actually, I started a bread last night, but I not following any specific recipe, I'm just incorporating different methods and trying to come up with something that would work for me:” You seem adventurous. I hope that works well for you. 

Pictures are always informative and good. 

Wishing you great success!

Dan