The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

A question for the baguetteers...

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

A question for the baguetteers...

Watching alfanso's video and reading several posts about baguette shaping, I became curious...

If, instead of proofing seam-down and scoring, you proofed seam-up and just let the seam burst in the oven, would it still be considered a baguette?  I guess what I'm asking is, does the scoring exist as an absolute requirement for a loaf to be called a baguette.  A rough, natural burst would create a more rustic-looking loaf, but could it still be called a baguette?

     --Mike

alfanso's picture
alfanso

seam side up.  A matter of preference.  I don't know whether anyone does what you are considering but typically when proofed seam side up the dough is flipped to put the seam down for scoring and baking.  I've seen where some baguettes are scored with a single slash for the entire length.  A good example of that is the fine work of Mark Sinclair, who has produced a few videos you can find on TFL and are quite worthy of watching.  If for no other reason than to observe his work place - which is a trailer.

As to whether it is a baguette or not to allow the seam to burst, can't answer that.  I'd venture a guess that the baguette is defined as much for its shaped, length and general weight as for anything else. 

It doesn't hurt to give it a try Mike.  Perhaps taking the advice of Doc Brown "Roads?  Where we're going we don't need roads".  It also doesn't hurt to get in the swing of getting some scoring practice in either ;-)

alan

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

by the way, I LOVE the BTTF reference.  So many people just sit there with a "huh..?" look on their faces when I use that same quote!  LOL

My son has been begging me for a repeat of a loaf I made a few months ago: 10% whole wheat, 10% home ground barley, 10% flax meal, and 70% AP at 80% hydration (acted more like 70% due to the whole grains).  My wife didn't care for the earthiness of the flax, I thought it was okay, and my son loved it - he said it reminded him of the taste of noodles.  So I was thinking that a small baguette might provide him with enough of a taste of "noodle bread" without making a huge loaf that'll take too long to use up.

I'll post my results when it's out of the oven.

    --Mike

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Upside down ? Usually if its proofed seam up or seam down, its usually baked seam down regardless of the proofong direction. Some people (not I) prefer seam up to draw moisture from the top and thus produce a crustier loaf. I think you are saying you want to proof the seam up and then bake the seam up with the expectation thay the seam bursts - to be honest im not even sure of the seam would naturally want to burst and you may get all sorts of tearing on the sides etc. Youd be best to try what alfanso suggests - one long score which is one of many scoring patterns - theres a video out there of several variations including the single slash so assuming a single seam burst worked - I guess you could equate that to a baguette scored with one slash - not sure !?!?!

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

of baking it upside down.  But I may go with the one, long score.  Not sure yet.  I also like practicing my scoring too.  

So many decisions...  So little baking time...   LOL

     --Mike

 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

I think I'd feel like I played 7 notes of a scale and just left 8th hanging! As curious as i am now I do think there would be more chances of rupturing as even loosely 'welded' loaves seem to heal after final proof anyway - heres the video with various cut patterns - https://youtu.be/wtNrKGknwBA

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

I made an Italian Easter braid from my wife's family cookbook last year (the kind with dyed eggs snuggled into the braid before baking) and I had a very interesting thing happen:

I was having a devil of a time rolling out the ropes for the braid - the gas in the dough was preventing it from "tightening up" and it just felt like rolling a piece of surgical tubing back and forth.  On a lark, I tried folding it lengthwise, sealing the seam, and rolling it a bit.  Then that rope would rest while I worked the next one.  By the time the third one was done, the first was relaxed enough to do it again, which I repeated 3-4 times each.I ended up with 3 beautiful, smooth, even ropes that braided up flawlessly.  Since the seam kinda became invisible after rolling, forgot about it until it came out of the oven.  If you look carefully, you can see the lengthwise crevice following along the rope through the braid in front.

I'm just guessing without the extra manipulation of forming a rope, a baguette could open up even more.

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Thats georgeous work and making me really hungry :). Yeah the seams are visible alright and sometimes experiments or adhoc solutions from one problem reveal a little bit of interesting behavior - so who knows with a standard loaf. Of course with braided pastries which are usually a higher fat containing dough the yeast activity is impaired whereas straight FWYS yeast tends to take off at a certain point so who really knows - if you try it Im sure at least two TFLers will be interested to see the results (I'd say i would give it a whirl but thats 5 scores Im gonna have to put aside)

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

about the enriched dough slowing down the yeast.  This particular recipe reminded me a lot of a challah - firm, close-grained crumb, with an understated sweetness, but a fair amount of butter and a couple eggs.

I'm getting even more curious now.  Perhaps I'll make a slightly larger batch of "noodle bread" and bake two loaves side by side: one with traditional scoring, and one unscored with seam side up.

     --Mike

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Well, now you're going to have to do that and post the photos so we can all see.

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

So...  I made up a batch of "noodle bread" for my son.  Since Alan's baguettes always look so awesome I figured I'd start there.  I followed his video almost to the letter, but there were three  slight deviations:

  1. This has 10% whole wheat, 10% barley, and 10% flax meal, so it's not straight AP like Alan's.  This prompted me to go for 80% hydration because of the whole grains.
  2. Right in the middle of the letter folds it was decided in my household that it was time to go out for dinner.  So there was actually a 2-hour bench ferment with a couple more letter folds before the cold ferment overnight.
  3. My dough weight was 520g so I had two 260g loaves.  Alan scales his to 310g in the video, and although I rolled them about the same diameter as his since they're 30% smaller they look like mini batards instead of baguettes.

I proofed one seam up and the other seam down.  The seam up one went on the stone 'as is'and the other got 3 lengthwise scores.  As you can see the scored one opened more or less predictably, while the other split where it felt like.  Interestingly, the rough split had better ears, but I feel I can improve that with practice.  Also, the crumb wasn't as open as I was hoping for - but for a 30% whole grain dough, using a new technique for the first time, I'm pretty happy with the results.  And my son was thrilled to get some more noodle bread. ;-)

alfanso's picture
alfanso

"As you can see the scored one opened more or less predictably, while the other split where it felt like."

Well, now you and we have the proof.  Seam side up in the oven is going to split at the weakest point, typically the seam.  One of the reasons we score the dough - to control where the split(s) will occur.

Something that I've found quite true so far is that the baguette form is tougher to get down than the batard or boule.  Certainly the scoring skill.  And over time, what happens is that muscle memory takes over when it comes to rolling out the correct length.  That takes repetition.  For a really long while now, I can roll them out to almost the exact same length every time - for my own couche, oven and baking deck.  And I'd bet dollars to doughnuts (yum!) that kendalm and jimbtv would agree on this point for their own environments. I would have to learn how to roll them out to full baguette length until that muscle memory is built.  At this point, I'd guess rather quickly.  But it is still a learned process - as well as getting the scoring down.

But - for a yeasted dough, the Bouabsa baguette is a fine place to start. As easy as they come, and typically yield quite good results.

I made that video for an acquaintance while still in my early home baking stages, and although almost all of it is still relevant for today, I handle the folding and rolling out of the dough just a little differently now.  A forever learning process.

I'm glad that you took the challenge, and don't give up the ship.  The journey ain't a single day or bake.  I believe that we can all agree on that!

And if your son loves the noodle bread, isn't that what counts today in his world?  When my dog looks at me she doesn't see beauty or hideous.  She sees me.

 

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

just about the time my son got home from school today.  He was ecstatic that I had made it for him, and of course had to have a slice right away.  After a couple bites he asked for some butter on it, then said, "It doesn't taste like noodles until there's butter on it."

A man after my own heart...    :-)

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

You might find these links interesting:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/life/anatomy+baguette/8229257/story.html

http://www.cooksinfo.com/french-bread-law-1993

Here in the US we call a lot of things a "baguette" but that doesn't necessarily correlate with practices in areas under French influence. Your neighbor might accept a thinly-shaped loaf of bread with a full-length score as a baguette, but you would have a hard time passing it off as authentic.

In France, as in Italy, you cannot call your breads a certain name unless the formula and methods adhere to very specific criteria. Literally, it is against the law.

I proof seam-side up then flip them to seam-side down when I place them on the peel. I then score the tops generally in 5 symmetrical spots. Eye appeal is an important component in the way we perceive food products.

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I happened on a reproduced page on TFL from Msr. Calvel where he described the various loaves along with lengths and weights and even number of scores.  It was at that moment when I realized that my "baguettes" were actually conforming almost exactly to his definition of a "long batard".  Which I now frequently refer to my own as being.

But for the sake of things, I'll also call them baguettes with equal frequency, as my own colloquialism.  I can't say that I've ever referred to what I do as adhering to the norms that would ID them as authentic, although they are my own "authentic"!  We are all equally free to misname things as we please ;-) .

Thanks for the links.  For the few who don't know, James MacGuire is one of the most respected bakers in Canada, so his words do mean something.

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

I too am often conflicted at times in calling my baguettes "baguettes". They look like a baguette but they are undersized in both length and weight, according to everything I have read on the subject. Still, when compared to other American so-called baguettes, they fair quite well.

I do always adhere to the pain de tradition française formulation rules and my baguettes are based on the Team USA 2008 formula from the Bread Baker's Guild of America. They are a little harder to proof than a straight yeasted dough but the flavor is worth the effort.

Regarding James MacGuire, I had the fortune of training under him for a few days, about a year ago. He is a true gentleman and very giving of his knowledge and skills.

kendalm's picture
kendalm

This (the second link) is a great article - a bit like what makes champagne champagne. It mostly concerns the composition and from what i can recall without re-reading, a baguette must be flour water yeast salt. The yeast can eoother bakers yeast or sourdough or a combination provided the combo is certain percentage. The flour can only can a few additives including up to 2% fava flour, 0.5% soy flour and 0.3% malted wheat flour.
Additionaly ascorbic acid os allowed. The weight is 350g (250g-275g after baking). Length should be 55cm-65cm. Interestingly most american wheats contain malted barley flour so technically picking up just about any american flour. The first time I got my hands on french flour the forst thing I was happy to notice was the malted wheat addition. Also niticed many other amzkng things about it most importantly an amazing flavor - i was instantly reminded of the very first time i ate french bread (theres just no substitute)

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

very interesting reads.  

suave's picture
suave

As long as there isn't a euro comissar looking over your shoulder, you can call anything you want a baguette.