The illusive high hydration oven spring
Hello all,
I'm a newcomer to the world of bread and sourdough. I spent a couple of weeks playing with normal yeasted loaves to get a feel for it down while my starter was maturing, and all that went perfectly well. Got good results with a number of loaves.
My initial sourdough experiments were a bit ambitious, but I reined in that and went with a lowish hydration (65%) white loaf that was my first success - felt like a dough, bulked well, shaped well, sprang up lovely in the oven.
Now I'm trying to expand into higher hydration loaves but feel that every time I experiment with something over 75% and use a simple stretch and fold technique during bulk, my loaves end up not giving me any rise in the oven, but I'm also pretty sure the dough is strong enough and it's not over/under-proofed.
Case study from yesterday:
1. 10pm - Levain build night before: 50g starter 100g flour (50:50 white:rye), 100g H2O
2. 10am - Autolyse 325g white (shipton mills organic) with 260g H20 @ 34 C (my kitchen is ambient is about 20-21C)
3. 11:40am - Add 125g levain, leave 5 mins, add 6.5g salt (I think this gives me an 85% hydrated loaf?). Mix in bowl for a few minutes, perform about 30 stretch and folds, transfer to bulk container at approx 12pm.
4. Perform 8 sets of stretch and folds at 30 min intervals - I wouldn't do this many but loaf wasn't holding its shape until this point. I had also moved to near a radiator and ambient is now about 26C.
5. 620pm - dough had doubled, decent doming and bubbles forming - I realise this is a long bulk, but dough didn't seem right until this point Preshaped and bench rest
6. 7pm - shape and into banneton and proof at 25/26C
7. 10:50pm into oven (final proof 3hr50mins - dough rose a little but not tons, poke test seemed fine and previous problems with flat loaves told me I was overproofing, so didn't want to push it out)
8. 11:40pm - Out of oven, great crust, great even crumb, but no rise, score didn't open at all. 
Is it dough strength? Is it shaping? Is it my proofing timings? I have tried retarding overnight to same effect but worse crumb/crust. this bread is 100% edible and really quite delicious, but looks sad. It's also driving me mad as every time the dough seems like it's in the right state right up until I take it out of oven...
Well,I'm new here too and also suffer from high hydration doughs not rising so I'm afraid I can help you but i will be following this wig interest. I use shipton mills too and I've seen lots of post about UK flour not performing the same as american flour, so I never go that high in water as 85% and have better results. Perhaps we just have to accept we can't go that high hydration
Unless other UK bakers can tell us otherwise.
A fellow noob! At least I am struggling with someone in the same way.
You might be right but I find it hard to then square that with the prevalence of the currenly super-popular uber-wet sourdough loaves being sold in every hipster bakery for £4-5 a loaf... Unless they're using solely north american flour. Also I thought the shiptons organic white was a mixture of Canadian and British wheat, so should only have (50%) a bit of that result if that's true.
Anyway, it's an incredible learning curve so far!
Take solace in the fact that the crumb and crust look really nice. We need a couple more details - oven temperature and steaming time/method. Dutch oven?
Other bakers using British flours do comment on a difference in performance. Their flour doesn't soak-up as much water and is less apt to generate a lot of spring. This isn't a fatal flaw but you will need to take the differences into consideration. An 85% hydration with American flour might actually be a 95% hydration with a British flour.
My overall opinion is that the gluten is depleted by the time the bread makes it to the oven. A few things stand out to me in your description. The purpose of the handling is to develop gluten, as well as distribute ingredients, and you are handling the dough a lot. Given enough time the gluten will break down and your processes do take a lot of time.
In my opinion your overall fermentation and proofing times are too long. When you bring your autolyse up to 34C, then add your levain, it is going to take time for the dough to get back to a reasonable 23 - 25 C temperature. Your leavener isn't going to park and hold, but instead accelerate. Raising the temperature would typically mean reducing times, and what I see are some really long times at relatively high temperatures.
If you desire to run that very long baking schedule then I would recommend holding temps closer to 23 C. Even then you may be disappointed. A six hour ferment isn't too long if the flour can handle it, but if it is already low on proteins the gluten may be past its prime by the end of the ferment. A four hour proof is really, really long too.
The great thing about practicing baking bread is that you end up with a lot of bread. While it may not look the way you hoped it is still really tasty, so it isn't a total loss. A low hydration dough has a greater chance of resulting in a successful loaf of bread than a high hydration dough, do I'd start by dropping the hydration. You might not get the open crumb you desire but you can work back into that once you remedy some other issues.
I'd nix the high-temp autolyse and instead autolyse for 30 minutes at room temperature, do the final mix for maybe 3 - 4 minutes then straight into the tub. Follow up with S&F every 30 minutes for maybe two hours then let it rest for another 2 hours. This would be based on a fairly healthy starter.
Next I would dump it out of the tub, divide, rest, shape, and place in the bannetons. I probably wouldn't go much past an hour on the proof, maybe an hour and a half if the environmental temps are low (21 C), then into a dutch oven or hot oven with steam.
Now, if you really have to mix in the morning and bake at night you are going to have to consider retarding the dough. That's another process that would require some experimentation and given the nature of your formula, you could either retard the bulk or retard the proof.
I bake with American flours so I really cannot speak to the intricacies of British flours. Some really talented bakers on this forum use British and French flours all the time so maybe they can provide some needed comments here.
Jim
I am NOT the person who has the answer. I'm sure you'll hear from our star bakers on this. That said, I had the same experience and this is what my problem was.
My sour dough starter was lovely and sour, and I used long fermentation times to develop that sour taste I liked....
Apparently, that sour taste can also mean gluten destroying acidity. Eventually, after trying everything, I had to toss that starter. My suggestion would be to feed your starter every 12 hours for a few days. Normally I double the weight of my starter with equal weights of flour and water. When I was trying to save my starter, I changed the proportion: example - 25 grams starter, 50 grams flour, 50 grams water. Leave your starter on the counter for an hour or so after feeding, and then pop it into the fridge. Do this for a few days before you try your bread again.
I noticed that you didn't ever use the fridge during any of your fermentation. The fridge is a great place to increase the acidity/flavor of your bread without exhausting your yeast. You might try retarding your dough in the fridge at some point.
If you are worried about your flour, try baking a loaf using commercial yeast. Same recipe, hydration, the works, just use commercial yeast. If you have the same problems, then you know the flour is weak. If it is weak flour, you can use it for other purposes.
Keep baking and good luck!
Re. Hadster - I'm leaving out fridge retardation at the moment as it's an extra step that can cause problems - trying to get the basics down first then will work on flavour. Although this loaf actually tastes pretty good. Re starter health - the starter is pretty healthy. I feed it once every 24 hours at the moment with following proportions:
Remove all but 40g starter, add roughly 80g of 60:40 white:rye, 80g room temp H20.
The levain for this loaf was super happy, just about at its peak (about 13 hours after feeding, I feel this is a bit slow but nothing will speed him up) and floated really strong in water (pushing it below surface it would pop up to surface again). So I'm of the opinion that the starter is definitely adequate in strength to leaven a loaf.
Re. Jim - yes I do take complete solace in the crust and crumb.
In response to oven - this is a definite problem area, i have a very old gas oven with no fan, so no even temp (loaves always burn at backside and a lot of turning is required. That said, I have been able to get commercial yeast loaves with good results. I usually do a bath of water in bottom. With this loaf I kind of "constructed" a dutch oven with big shallow pan and frying pan that almost exactly fit on the top. So not perfect, but results definitely much better than not. It helped the bad distribution of heat from the oven and was much more uniformly baked.
Re handling of dough and temps. This is interesting. My initial loaf tests were all with unwarmed /room temp water and I got same results. But let me clarify - the water was at 34C, so autolyse probably around 25.5 (H20+flour temp+ambient)/3. Although my cheap thermometer stopped working and so I couldn't test it. Perhaps a little warmer than this.
I will attempt these steps on my next try and let you know how it goes!
One last question for you on the hydrations of different flours - how do you mean exactly that a US might be 85% where same level of water is 95% UK? Surely they are the same %age hydrated doughs, just act differently? And do you mean that the UK loaf will act like it is a higher hydration for the same amount of water?
Thanks all for the quick replies!
In fact, the hydration will be the same no matter which flour you use. To be more accurate, American flours generally have the ability to absorb more water than their weaker European equivalents. A hydration of 85% in a European flour will not feel or perform like an 85% hydration in American flour. More water will remain residual in the mix.
So, while you may add in the same equivalent amount of water, one dough will be merely sticky and the other will be very soupy. Same water - different absorption coefficients.
Please keep in mind that this is my understanding. I have little or no actual experience with European flours.
Hi
I use Waitrose organic flour whch is actually Marriages flour so you can get in a health food store or if you go to Costco I believe they sell it there too I find hydration needed for the dough can change depending on the batch of flour I buy in bulk as I live a distance away I do use Shiptons too Even Aldi are selling organic flour spelt and rye. Look at Bakery Bits web site Its a brilliant site for all things baking They do lots of different flour from small mills They have lots of bits and bobs for bread making
Happy Baking I am now off to make pizza dough
Cheers
LIZ
sitting on the bottom of the banneton, I can't help but wonder if perhaps the banneton might be too big for the amount of dough. I think a smaller basket or a larger amount of dough would make a big difference in loaf shape. Unfortunately there isn't a "one size fits all" banneton size. Smaller bannetons for small loaves have higher sides and are deeper. What are the dimensions of the inside of the basket? (d and h)
Shapes that are shallow and flat and round are very hard to "eye ball" when judging dough volume. You may want to pinch off a small amount of dough and cram it into the lower part of a straight sided shot glass when you are shaping the loaf. Mark the level and keep it near the dough. This can work as a crude gauge to let you know the expansion of the dough. Don't let sourdough "double" in volume, aim for 80% and leave some work for the oven.
I've been trying to figure out the total dough weight and notice that the overnight levain weighs 250g but in step #3 only half the levain is used (125g.) What is the total weight of dough? dough flour? and... what happens to the other half of the levain?
I don't see the timing as being "way off" if your levain takes 12 hours with a 1;2;2 build to be peaking. I'm not surprised it took from noon to eight pm just to shape. I do think the dough may be too wet and the suggestion to lower the hydration seems reasonable. So does the suggestion to use a higher protein flour. You could also use more levain in the dough instead.
The way to increase the yeast is to give it larger flour feeds (or smaller inoculations) waiting for the starter to peak. And then feed again. With consecutive peaking the starter should be taking less time to peak after feeding. Adjust feeding amounts to peak when you are around to feed it. With a cold kitchen, you may want a very wet starter kept on the counter top. Use more of it in a recipe at the same time reducing recipe water. ...Just throwing that out there...
These are great notes - thanks. the size of banneton is definitely something I've thought about as it does seem fairly large. Just picked it up at my local supermarket. I will try to find one smaller or just do final proof in a normal smaller bowl next time!
Re levain - total weight is 200g (40+80+80) and the leftover either gets dumped or used in something else - used them for some sourdough flatbreads yesterday which turned out alright.
I've never actually done a calculation on total dough weight - what does this achieve and why would you need to know?
and the banneton dimensions helps me to visualise the two together. Roughly comparing, your shaped dough should fill at least half the banneton space. From the picture, it looks like the dough fills perhaps 1/4 the space fully risen.
Also throwing the finished dough on the scales and comparing it to the total dough weight in the recipe, will tell you if you forgot something.
Judging by the crust and crumb, the dough, starter and technique are probably fine. As others have said, I think the hydration is a bit too high for your flour (you've got a lovely ciabatta there!), so I'd back it off to no more than 80%. Even 75% will give you a nice moist sourdough with an open crumb.
And yes, the banneton is too big. Looking at the before and after pictures, you've probably got close to a doubling of the volume of the dough mass, but because it's so spread out it's hard to tell. Put it in a smaller basket and go for it!
I've been reading through this thread and I was hoping for some clarification of some (perceived by me) inconsistencies:
1) In your original post you show that you begin your levain, the night before, with 50g starter, 100g flour, and 100g water. This actually is 250g as Mini Oven stated in her first reply. I'm wondering if the 200g (40+80+80) that you quoted in your response is from your reply to Hadster's question about your feeding regimen, which is where I see those numbers for the first time.
2) When you add the warm water to the autolyse, do you check the temp of it before you add your levain in? By 11:40am has it dropped back down to the 20-21C you keep your kitchen at? I'm assuming your levain build sits on the countertop overnight (and so would be at room temp), and I think Jim has a valid point about the temperature accelerating the yeast metabolism. But as Mini Oven points out, your feeding regimen is leading toward a long development time for your yeast to peak - so maybe the temp is not so big an issue.
3) In your exploration of this site have you run across anyone talking about the No Muss No Fuss starter plan? It was posted by Dabrownman, a rather prolific poster on this site (until recently) and is a pretty efficient way to manage your starter. His whole philosophy was about minimal effort and zero waste. He would leave a quantity of starter in the fridge for weeks until he wanted to bake with it, take out a very small quantity, and over successively larger builds increase it to the amount needed for the recipe. He would only make more than needed when he finally had depleted the refrigerated portion and needed to replenish his stock - ergo, no waste. I myself am a convert to this technique (as are many folks here) and find it extremely helpful.
One other thing to note about feeding... Mini Oven's comment about not being surprised that it takes so long for your fermentation to peak is totally related to your feeding schedule. By feeding once every 24 hrs, you're essentially "training" (for lack of a better word) your yeast to grow on that schedule. If that fits your schedule and you're liking the results - awesome! Go with that, and more power to you. But... if you'd like things to progress at a little faster rate give this a try:
Don't wait too long to experiment with a refrigerated retard. If you start your levain at 8:00am, the second build is at 12:00pm, and the third is at 4:00pm. While the last build is maturing, get your other stuff ready and mix up your autolyse at around 6:00 or 6:30. Then stir it all together at 8:00pm, do 20 or 30 stretch-and-folds in the bowl, and put it in the fridge overnight. The next morning, take it out and go right to your stretch-and-folds and shaping. This accomplishes a few things:
Using this technique will, of course, push your bake out to about a day and a half, rather than the one day schedule you outlined above. But it's worth it.
I can be somewhat wordy at times, but I hope this was helpful in some small way.
--Mike
This is an amazingly helpful post - you have completely changed the way I think about starters now!!
In quick response you are right re. inconsistencies. the levain build was 250. I wasn't very scientific with it, just made that much and then used 125g...
I will def attempt the no muss no fuss method and getting my starter to a faster state than it is now. Off to read some......
One quick question on this - is there anything to the fact that you suggest going from a 24 hour feeding schedule to a 12, then 1 6/8 then a 4 - what would be the result if I just jumped to a 4 hour build from my current starter? Would it just be confused as to what was happening?
p
the process. Just be patient, though. It might still take a few extra cycles to get the yeast going at the 4-hour point. What you want to watch for is the peak stage - when the bubbles start to decrease and the top looks like it's beginning to drop, but before it starts to sink back down. That's when you want to feed it.
If you feed a little bit early, or a little bit too late, it's not really a huge deal - starters are tremendously forgiving. But the peak is when the yeast cells have multiplied to the max, and the food supply has just run out - so it's the best time to give them more food.
Great, I am attempting this re-build and am currently preparing a loaf with the new 12-hour starter. I have started in on an 8 hour build as well, but think I may stay with the 12 as seems to me easier to fit those feedings in around work schedules and/or do a build overnight (starting 7am before work, 7pm in evening, start loaf 7am next morning). With the 8/6/4 I feel there's always going to be too much pressure to make the feedings!
Anyway, all experimentation! Thanks again :)
.. but one comment I might add is to suggest you go through the exact sames steps but instead use room temp water for the starter and not put the bread near the radiator. Let the dough do it's thing, for the entire time, at room temp of around 21.. This will slow things down, but perhaps you'll find the dough has more strength in the end to bloom more fully as you could be slightly over fermented. I have found this to be my problem when i kept the process too warm in the past. And I think mini oven could be right about the size of your basket.. good luck! bake happy..
So I attempted a version taking into account some of the key points highlighted in some other replies, namely:
1. Build only as much levain as I need and start from 10g of seed
2. Shorten up times considerably
3. Cut down handling of dough
4. Final Proof in smaller container for size of loaf
I have to say, while not anywhere near to where I obviously would like it, the combination of these factors made a HUGE difference. I could tell the dough was developing better through initial stages and building nice strength. I don't have a plastic container small enough for this size loaf to ferment in so was hard to eyeball size over the time period, but shaping was also alright.
Rough re-cap
1. 6:30pm - Levain build 1 - 10g seed + 10g flour + 10g H2O
2. 6:30am - Build 2 - 30g + 15g + 15g = 60g
3. 7:00pm (back home little late) - Build 3 - 60g + 30g + 30g = 120g
4. 7:30am (slept in a little) - autolyse 250g flour + 185g H2O @ 30C - Mix temp 27.5C
**First mistake, levain had dropped a decent level below peak, have since noticed that the starter is now peaking around 8/9 hours although have only been feeding on 12 hour cycles, was still floaty in water but not abundantly so.
5. 8:00am - 75g levain + 5g salt. Hand mixed for 20 mins approx, then 30 stretch & folds
**This is where I am confused, this was basically all the levain I had - it left me with about 20g to play with, but I had 120g from the last build, so I "lost" about 25-30g somewhere, does this happen??
Final dough temp = 24.5C, Final Hydration = 77.4%
6. Did 4 sets of stretch and folds at 30 min intervals, then left for two hours.
7. 12:00pm - Pre-shape + bench rest
8. 12:30 - Shape + final proof in soup bowl
9. 13:40 - out and scored - was VERY difficult to score and also seemed very flat for being in not a very flat bowl, didn't seem to have risen much in the bowl, poke test seemed OK.
10. 13:45 - Into dutch oven, sprayed with water on Gas Mark 9 (highest I can go)
11. 13:55 - Checked on oven spring, seemed good. Scores didn't open amazingly, but a little bit - better than any so far!
12. 14:05 - Top off dutch oven, turned oven to GM6, baked further 40 mins periodically turning (oven is uneven in temp)
Notes: Actually got oven spring. Hooray! The doming on the loaf doesn't seem great however, one side of the loaf seems like it's caved a little bit (right on picture) and it could have maybe jumped a little more. Could this be the strength of the starter at point I used it?
The crust is great - love the difference in using the dutch oven.
The crumb is good, but a little uneven. quite tight round the corners and big sporadic open holes near top.
Flavour is not sour at all - well, a little. But this I am assuming is based on my shorter timings and will require retardation to build flavour.
So onto my next question
1. Are there good reading materials on this forum that talk about any rough guides to timing with retarding versus kitchen proofing? If I am final proofing for an hour on the counter, what would that equate to in a fridge? Is there a calculation I can do?
I'm sorry I missed this thread until now. I just saw your other post with the cold bulk ferment. The questions you asked in this thread got me thinking too.
I have no idea what happened to your missing levain. I sometimes notice a discrepancy of a couple grams, plus or minus, but have never had a 30% loss before. Might've been just a weighing error, or possibly your scale got bumped - who knows? Has it happened again?
It actually IS challenging to score high hydration doughs. There are a lot of posts here about scoring and quite a few YouTube videos that address the subject. Two posts that come to memory are: Scoring -- Obtaining a Proper Surface and Scoring Bread: an Updated Tutorial. What kind of knife are you using to do your scoring?
The uneven crumb in your loaf doesn't look that bad, and seems like it's probably related to dough handling skills. This will definitely improve the more you practice, and the really fortunate thing is the mistakes are edible! Try taking a look at some of Trevor's YouTube videos. Search for: Trevor J. Wilson. He's been a baker for many years and teaches that dough handling is even more important than hydration - even has a video where he makes a nice open holey crumb with a dough at 65% hydration. It's impressive to watch. You can also find his videos at his website www.breadwerx.com
--Mike