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Help with Peter Reinhart's Bavarian Pumpernickle

Longstreet85's picture
Longstreet85

Help with Peter Reinhart's Bavarian Pumpernickle

Hello,

I'm about tearing my hair out with this one. I've tried to make Peter Reinhart's Bavarian Rye from his Whole Grains book. I've made his Volkenbrott without difficulties.

The first time I tried to make it with a 9 by 4 Pullman pan, I baked it the 30 minutes at 375 and the bread registered maybe 100 F on my instant-read thermometer. Either a problem with the recipe or my oven, so I'm investing in an oven thermometer. The bread turned out okay but the spring made it nowhere near the top of the pullman pan and my bread had a dome that I didn't want.

The second and third time I tried to make with the 9x4 Pullman pan, I let it rise (contrary to directions) for about 20 additional minutes in the pan so that the dough would get to the top of the pullman loaf pan. I let it bake with the lid on for a bit longer but when I take it out of the pullman pan the bread inevitably falls apart. It registered maybe 150 F after 45 minutes, so I could have sworn it would have held its shape.

What's the deal? Why is the bread falling apart? What am I doing wrong?

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

familiar with this particular recipe / book, but the baking times that you are talking about make no sense for a pumpernickel style bread.  Standard method is for either a long, low bake (14-24 hours in a steady temp of 220-250 deg F), or to use a "falling oven" method, where you start with a higher temp (say 350-375) for 30 minutes, then drop the temp lower (say 325) for another hour, and then drop it still lower (say 275-300) for another couple of hours, and then drop it again to a final low temperature (220-250 deg) to finish the bake for another few hours.  It is this long time at low temperature which creates the deep dark colour and distinct flavour and texture that differentiates a "pumpernickel" from any other rye loaf.

I'm wondering if perhaps this recipe is a "falling oven" type, and you may not have seen the following steps of the bake where the first 30 minutes at 375 degrees should be followed by many hours more of baking, but at different temps?

Also, a bread is not actually baked until it has reached an internal temperature of at least 190 deg F, and so is nowhere near safely cooked at the 100 deg F or 150 deg F that you have mentioned.  Please don't eat any loaf that hasn't been fully and safely cooked through to at least 190 deg F, unless you crumble it up and bake it thoroughly to use as croutons or bread crumbs.

Please take another look at the complete recipe and see if perhaps there aren't more instructions on completing the bake over a much, much longer time period.

Longstreet85's picture
Longstreet85

I was a bit careless describing the recipe. Reinhart instructs you to take the loaf out of the pan and bake freestanding for about 45 additional minutes after the 30 minute bake at 375 F. I certainly wouldn't eat raw dough! :-)

I tried again today, following the instructions to a "T" and have found that your intuition was correct. I, first, didn't dare take the loaf out of the pan until it reached about 190 F after an hour of baking. When I did, it was still wet but held its shape well enough to crisp up, which I did for about another two hours -- the rye bread still not burning (that I can see).

I think that I'm going to try the recipe one last time, this time adjusting the baking time to

45 minutes with Pullman lid on.

1 hr freestanding.

This represents a 50% adjustment over what the recipe recommends, about a 1 hour to 1 hour 15 minutes. What do you think?

Thank you for your help so far!

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

info missing in the description.  It really is hard to fully describe every little step, so we all end up skipping bits of info at one time or other!

Considering the total lack of consistency in describing the various rye flour types (not to mention the "chops" and "meal" and other coarse grinds), the lack of consistency in heat transfer from one pan manufacturer to another, the fact that a ridiculous number of home ovens don't read / heat correctly to what their settings are, and the variety of environmental factors from one kitchen to another --- well, honestly, every bake is an "experiment" and it is pretty much miraculous if you manage to get the same result as a recipe author when following their instructions precisely!  This is a great article outlining some of the rye flour issues that we have in North America: http://theryebaker.com/rye-flour/

It sounds like you are getting a good handle on what your particular mix of factors needs, and that you're getting closer to getting the loaf that you want out of it.  Good for you for not giving up in frustration and putting in the time and effort to figure out what tweaks are needed to make *your* version work for you!

I suspect that you might need to keep an eye on the final free-standing bake to make sure that the outer crust doesn't get too hard and thick, since you will have already baked it to "done" internally while in the pan.  There will still be some moisture migrating out from the interior, but it could end up drying out more than you want.  I'd try giving it a knock at around the 30 minute mark and see how it feels and how much longer you think it should be in.  Remember that it will need to rest for at least 24 hours before you slice it, and you can "adjust" the texture of the outer crust to some degree by either leaving it open, wrapping it in linen / cotton / cheesecloth, or wrapping it in plastic.

Looking forward to hearing how the next round turns out!

Longstreet85's picture
Longstreet85

Thanks a million! Could I ask just a few more questions?

(1) I'm worried that the covered rye bread in the pullman loaf will collapse when I take it the pullman lid off. This has happened a few times. One problem could be that the loaf hasn't cooked enough, but I'm wondering if it could be that the loaf might need to crisp up, regardless of internal temperature, before I let it hold its shape free standing. This was certainly the case with the loaf I tried today (didn't turn out great but getting there). Despite an internal read of 180 or so it had the consistency of pudding, so I let it firm up before turning it out. Even then I was a little worried.

(2) Reinhart has a recipe for Volkornbrott that resembles this one. The only difference is the addition (in this one) of about 6 oz of cooked rye berries to the final dough, yet he

(a) lets the OTHER dough proof in the pan for 45 minutes, whereas this one gets no proofing

AND

(b) bakes that bread for about 30-45 minutes longer (1 hr 45 min vs. 1 hr to 1 hr 15 min).

What on earth could account for the difference? Surely the addition of Rye Berries would make the dough denser and (to my idiot reasoning) in need of more time, not less?

Ahh! I love bread baking! I'm still such a novice compared to everyone on this forum but it's fun. Thanks again!!! Will upload pictures (this week, this month, this year ... ;-)) when I get it figured out.

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

I'm obsessed with pumpernickels, but am really new, too!

As I said, I'm not familiar with the recipe and timing that you are working with, but it doesn't sound like any version that I have used.  The one thing that is consistent across all high percentage rye bakes is that the loaves need to be left to rest for at least 24 hours, and preferably 36 up to 72 hours, before they are sliced.  The nature of rye is that the interior of the loaf will basically gelatinze during the bake, and it needs the time for the water to move out from the interior to the dry outer crumb.  Cutting in to them too soon can show you an almost frighteningly wet crumb.  From what you've mentioned here, I am wondering how long you are letting them sit before slicing?  Are you leaving them open to cool, or wrapping in something?

For the most part, high percentage rye loaves are docked (poked all over the top surface with a toothpick or needle) to allow large bubbles of gas to escape through the upper crust, and so preventing the development of a big bubble under the crust which will then collapse as the loaf cools.  If you haven't been doing that, then removing the lid of the pullman could very well create enough instant cooling (as well as change of pressure on the top of the loaf) to cause the collapse.  Try shaping the top of the loaf in to a smooth dome with a wet scraper, and then docking it all over, and see if that corrects your collapsing issue.

As for the difference in proofing and baking for the two apparently similar recipes - that is most likely down to a difference in what resulting texture and flavour is desired.  My understanding is that a Volkornbrotte is supposed to have a somewhat more open, airy, and dry crumb than a Pumpernickel (which is supposed to be dense and juicy) and also shouldn't be quite so darkly aromatic in flavour.  The difference in timing is what creates the difference in end result.

I'm with ya on loving all of the challenges of bread baking - and thoroughly enjoying the results of experimentation!  My personal favourite base to experiment on for rye is from right here on this site: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15736/mini039s-favorite-rye-ratio  When I want a loaf that I know I'll love, I start with this and then play around with add-ins and baking times / temps to get different textures and flavours and aromas.  it is a seriously addicting passtime...

Hopefully one of the resident experts will jump in on this soon, and give you enough help to keep baking happy!

aroma's picture
aroma

... I make my 100% rye loaves (80% hydration) in 8x4 inch bread tins covered with aluminium foil.  I set the oven to 200 Deg C and bake for 40 mins and then 'coast' for another 5.  The internal temp is close to 100 Deg C at the end of this.  Don't expect much oven spring and leave 24 h before cutting.

singingloon's picture
singingloon

After I got Stanley Ginsberg's  book The Rye Baker I abandoned Peter Reinhart's 'americanized' rye recipes. A favorite that brings out rye flavor like no other recipe is the Westphalian Pumpernickel, 3 days to make and nothing but rye, water and salt. The first time it came out like a brick due to the long oven time (24 hours), but my oven runs hot so i lowered the temperature a little and it came out well.

Longstreet85's picture
Longstreet85

I got Stanley Ginsberg's book and can't wait to cut my teeth on it, thank you!

I'm going to begin, but first I will manage Reinhart's version. It's silly but once something gets me I find it prohibitively hard to let go, ha ha ha.

Longstreet85's picture
Longstreet85

Thank you. The next time I try Reinhart I'm going to bake it at 190 C for 45 minutes with the lid on, although I expect my bread will register 88 C.

I'm going to invest in another digital thermometer and an oven thermometer, just in case.

Thanks. This is invaluable help.