The Fresh Loaf

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Fermenting until sugar and gluten is completely broken down

LevityBaker's picture
LevityBaker

Fermenting until sugar and gluten is completely broken down

So I tried to ferment white flour for a few days in 80 degree heat... Originally I had a nice firm dough but after a couple days it turned into complete soup. This makes sense since the gluten is theoretically all broken down.. does anyone have experience with baking sourdough for the purpose of making it low carb and virtually gluten free? Is it even possible to make baguettes or any shape that can hold its own with this goal in mind? Thanks!

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

I'm confused at what you are trying to do here. 

Did you include a starter or yeast with the flour and water, or were you trying to start a sourdough / wild yeast starter?  Was there any activity visible, such as bubbling or growing or anything before it turned in to "soup"?  If there was, then you were actually cultivating a sourdough starter, which you then either discarded or allowed to starve.

As for allowing yeast and enzymes to totally consume all of the sugars and starches in a dough, and have the gluten structure disintegrate and then baking it --- well, in my opinion you would basically be trying to bake the equivalent of a pile of yeast and bacteria waste products.  There would be little if any nutritional value left, there would be nothing left to provide any kind of structure and so would basically just crumble into dust once the water baked out, and nothing left that would provide any kind of flavour (well, besides the alcohol and acids that are part of the waste products). 

There are numerous grains that do not contain gluten and many recipes on how to use them to create wonderful and delicious breads and other baked goods.  They are not the same as wheat loaves, and shouldn't be compared to them, but are good in their own right.  If avoiding gluten is your aim, then this is the route to go.

If you are just looking for a no-carb or low carb or restricted carb or whatever version of common wheat breads - well, again, there are options out there (almond flour springs to mind), but the same thing applies that they are not the same as wheat and shouldn't be compared.

Please clarify what you are looking to accomplish and surely someone here will be able to help you find some good resources.

LevityBaker's picture
LevityBaker

this was a sourdough loaf I was trying to make so I included a rye starter.  I've read a lot online about sourdough bread potentially being virtually gluten free or just not having ill effects on people with celiac disease when fermented long enough and fully hydrolyzed. Bakers like Jack Bezian from Bezians Bakery say they ferment the dough for up to a month to remove gluten and maximize nutrition.  Was curious if anyone had experience with this..

http://aem.asm.org/content/70/2/1088.full

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

makes alcohol.  There are many examples.... beer, beer and more beer  ...hardly a baguette.  

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

Several articles have been written about extended fermentation of flour to eliminate the gluten. If you search on the web for "Gluten degradation in long time fermented dough" you will find some interesting reading.

After the fermentation has completely destroyed the gluten the mixture is dehydrated, ground back into a flour consistency, and used to make gluten-free products.

 

Jim

pmccool's picture
pmccool

For that matter, even meat, cheese, or eggs contain carbs. 

If the objective is to reduce carbs, it is a lot easier to start with ingredients that have a lower carbohydrate to protein ratio than wheat flour.  If the objective is to reduce or eliminate gluten, it is best to start with gluten-free ingredients.  There are lots of gluten-free breads you can make.  None of them will look, feel, or taste quite the same as wheaten breads, nor should they.  They are in a class of their own and should be appreciated as such. 

To jimbtv's point, if I had coeliac disease, I would not risk eating something that might contain even residual traces of gluten.  The potenti for misery far outweighs any presumed benefits of eating a wheat-based substance that isn't really wheat anymore. 

Paul

gerhard's picture
gerhard

To jimbtv's point, if I had coeliac disease, I would not risk eating something that might contain even residual traces of gluten.  The potenti for misery far outweighs any presumed benefits of eating a wheat-based substance that isn't really wheat anymore. 

I agree with Paul that there are better ways to reduce carbs and gluten from your diet but....

Friend of mine has coeliac disease but once in a while the craving for Stromboli over comes him and he eats at the risk of his body punishing him let alone his wife.  Gluten free bread has improved very much from what it was even 10 years ago, I remember trying a piece of his bread and telling him that it tasted like it was made with saw dust.  Now when toasted it is at least edible.

Gerhard

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

And if even a morsal of gluten passes her lips she is ill. If you have coeliac disease then stay away altogether. 

If you have an intolerance or want to make a healthier choice than sourdough is the way to go. 

I remember the bread my sister used to get a long time ago. It came in a tin and she got it on prescription. The 'bread' was pale as snow and fell apart if you looked at it. She could only tolerate it toasted.

FarrahBoh's picture
FarrahBoh

I know this question is a year old but just wanted to fill you in on my situation. I have done countless research into long fermented sourdough and coeliac disease and after running it past my husband ( who has coeliac disease ) and our G.P I had decided to give it a go. I have a organic sourdough starter that is kept at 100% hydration. I feed it daily with pure artisan water and organic white roller milled flour. and I keep it on the bench. ( in New Zealand ) I have used this starter to follow recipes to make pizza dough, focaccia, wraps, naan bread, English muffins, pancakes, waffles, and even fresh pasta., Each recipe I have used no gluten free flours at all. Only the organic white roller milled flour (the test to see if it really does break down some of the gluten or not) I ferment all my recipes for 12-24 hours, depending how much flour the recipes calls for will depend on how long I ferment it, so I can give it enough time to break down the gluten proteins. I have then fed this to my husband daily with to my and his relief no ill effects whatsoever. He has had further tests from the doctor to see if it was effecting him at all which everything came back fine (yay) Now I can not claim that it does make it safe for coeliacs because each coeliac can react a lot different to gluten and wheat then others. some get sick being in the same room with a bag of open flour while others are not that severe. But I can say from my experience and my husbands It was worth taking that initial risk after a lot of research (months and months) and under medical care because now our diet consists of beautiful organic gluten textured products with extra health benefits and gut healing properties that my coeliac husband can eat. again I would not recommend doing this without full knowledge of what you are doing, Talking to your G.P for their support especially if the coeliac disease is very sensitive.   

LevityBaker's picture
LevityBaker

Thank you so much for this post.  I’ve given up on bread after reading the plant paradox but you’ve got inspired me to give it another shot.  Can you give me your exact recipes? I still have a few pounds of unopened einkorn I’d like to put to use... also how long do you culture the starter for? Do you start with rye? Thank you!

FarrahBoh's picture
FarrahBoh

So I brought my starter freeze dried from here

https://www.trademe.co.nz/home-living/food-beverage/baking-ingredients/auction-1563230707.htm?rsqid=f6a8ddc7d0b64547a1627418bfb6af25

I brought the Kiwiana one as my plan was to use it to break down gluten and felt plain white flour would be easier for the sourdough to break down instead of the harder grains like wholemeal.

It took about a week to get it strong enough to use feeding daily with organic white flour (not stone ground as that was very heavy) and pure artisan water. I also kept it on my bench.

One of my easiest go to recipe that I will make is from this you tube video https://youtu.be/UrYr3gtaCZw he has a few going through the different steps

I usually triple the recipe and keep the whole thing in a large container in my fridge. in this video he only ferments his for a short amount of time. so I would do the mixing and kneading parts and then put it in a greased container in my fridge covered but not sealed shut so it can breathe and leave it for at least 12 hours before moving onto the next steps.

Then I would take out the amount I am needing for a meal and let the sit on the bench for a few hours to become room temperature so I can then continue with the shaping of the dough steps like in the videos.

I do NOT use plain flour during the steps of shaping the dough, as it would not have enough time to ferment and break down. so I would use some organic cornflour or rice flour during the shaping. and then gluten free polenta to put on my pizza peal to help it not stick.

This is my go to recipe which I also use the same dough to make gyros wraps, naan bread and even if I don't want to make another whole different dough I would use it to make a cheat focaccia.

So with the wraps I would make smaller balls of dough, roll them out and cook them on a dry hot griddle pan, then put under a tea towel while cooking the others to keep soft and warm and then serve.

Naan is pretty much the same but after you take them off I would rub some butter or glee over the top of the bread and keep under a tea towel. ( I would also sprinkle some crushed garlic and coriander if I wanted that after I rub the butter on- YUM ) 

and for the cheat Focaccia I would use more dough then I would for pizza so its thicker when you stretch it out. then dimple it and rub olive oil and sprinkle some dried herbs and sea salt flakes and cook. then leave to cool on a cooling tray and cover the top with a tea towel.

I keep the container of dough in my fridge for up to a week, each day in there it ferments longer and breaks down more of the proteins and adds more of the sour flavor. The longer it is in the fridge the harder it gets to shape, It will start to become more fragile as the days go on making it a little bit more fiddly. That's when the use of grease proof paper and oil comes in handy to make it more manageable, I have been used to having to fiddle with my baking as I had been having to use Gluten free flours for years so that breaks and is more fragile anyway so wasn't a big deal to me. Though I do prefer using the dough within the first 4 days because I have small children so when it gets up to day 5-6-and 7 it does get fairly sour.

   

Hopefully this helps a bit.