The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

When is a sourdough cooked sufficiently?

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

When is a sourdough cooked sufficiently?

i am turning into a very needy newbie! I have just made Drogon's excellent sourdough recipe and have produced an impressive- looking loaf but I would appreciate some tips on how to tell when a 100% wholewheat loaf is perfectly cooked. Having some experience with loaves that were very gummy when sliced,  I made a few changes, as follows:1. Added additional water to produce a dough that absorbed all the flour.2. Did the bulk fermentation overnight in fridge.3. 2nd ferment on counter at about 20C. Dough hadn't risen much after 2 hrs but baked anyway as it was a bit puffy. 4. Cooked in unheated Dutch oven for total of 107 mins, the final 20 mins in a turned- off oven. Very good oven spring. Crust crisp. Temperature of loaf when removed from oven was 98C. Did not slice until next day. Sliced bread seemed too moist, rather like a pumpernickel texture. Great flavour when toasted but I feel it is too moist to use untoasted. Is there some other simple test I could apply to gauge doneness?  As yet, I have not worked out how to post photos. My computer skills are rather similar to my bread-making skills! ValerieC

 

HansB's picture
HansB

I bake in a preheated dutch oven at 475F. I bake for 25 minutes covered and about 20 minutes uncovered. Something does not sound quite right if you are baking for 107 minutes.

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

Many thanks for your input, Hans. The more suggestions/ reflections the better for someone who cannot call on past experience to gauge the "doneness" of a loaf. TFL is a truly wonderful site. ValerieC

joeg214's picture
joeg214

If your internal bread temperature was 98C after baking, your bread should have been done.  

http://blog.kingarthurflour.com/2017/04/07/using-a-thermometer-with-yeast-bread/

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

Thank you, Joeg for this extremely helpful lInk. I was fascinated and informed by the fact that the internal temperature of bread will never register more than 212F. One lives and learns! I am grateful for your help and interest. ValerieC

joeg214's picture
joeg214

...the internal temperature could get hotter than 212F, but you'd probably end up with something resembling a piece of charcoal instead of a loaf of bread :)

Good baking,

 

Joe

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

I too have been challenged with bread that has retained too much moisture. In my case it makes it very difficult to slice using a commercial bread slicer. Like you said, it still makes great tasting bread and really shines when toasted.

I read a post on another forum that got me thinking about this subject in a different light. The baker was referring to baguettes but I think there may be some crossover. He mentioned that he ran the usual bake time and temperature but at the end of the bake he opened the oven door and let the bread remain in the hot oven for about 8 more minutes. His reasoning was to evaporate additional water from the baguettes so that they remained crisp. We baguette bakers are sometimes challenged by great baguettes that come out of the oven then going soft as they cool. This was his solution to the problem.

There may be something to say about starting hot for oven spring, then dropping the temp down and uncovering the dutch oven for an extended overall bake time. Personally I'd start with a hot dutch oven but your experience might demand otherwise. I would bake hot (250C) for the first 20 minutes, uncover, then drop the oven temperature to around 220C. After about 40 minutes total I'd start monitoring the internal temperature and also shoot for 98 - 100C. I might next experiment with opening the oven door, turning off the heat, and letting the loaf sit for another 20 - 30 minutes, just to see if I could bake off a bit more of the hydration.

I think it's worth a try. Please keep us posted on what you end up doing.

 

Jim

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

Hello Jim. Many thanks for your comprehensive suggestions.  My loaves were not totally gummy but still left a slight residue on the knife while slicing. Strangely, after freezing, the slices seem to be less moist. Perhaps the current level of pre- freeze moistness is normal? My inexperience shows in this question.Would the use of 100 per cent wholewheat flour be part of the problem? The flour I use has very large bran flakes. Not at all like atta flour. As a result I had to add extra water to absorb all the flour. I baked at 250C before reducing to 230 for another 30 mins then continued at 200 for another 45 mins. I'll try the different times you suggest as well as leaving the oven door ajar during those 20 mins in the turned-off oven. I recognise that most of my difficulties are the fruits of inexperience and that like most things, time and perseverence will make all the difference, especially when aided by such helpful input from bakers more experienced than I. ValerieC

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

I don't have much experience with whole wheat flour but others here do so I'm hoping they comment. I know that hydration factors are different and fermenting times faster due to the enzymes that accompany the additional bran and endosperm. 

I take a long view on perfecting a new bread. Personally speaking I know that my early efforts will be less-than-perfect. It may take me month of baking the same bread 3 times a week to get to the point where I am comfortable with producing a consistent product. If you too take the long view you might be able to educate many of us in the techniques needed to produce good loaf of whole wheat bread.

As a suggestion, pictures tell quite a bit about the process so you might want to include a shot of the overall loaf and another shot of the crumb.

Good luck.

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

Hello Jim. Many thanks for your generous input. Apologies for my tardy response. I have been very occupied baking bread! I am learning so much and not all of that learning involves the actual dough! I can see that I have been expecting the perfect loaf at my earliest attempts. When I reflect, I see the wisdom of the old " try, try, and try again" adage. This weekend's attempt at the same recipe was a little better- nice, reasonably open crumb,  except for one larger-than-I-would-like hole just below the top crust in the very centre of the loaf. Taste and appearance fine and base crust not too thick and hard, as I lined the base of the D/O with two layers of foil. The centre of the loaf was still a little moist, I feel, and slicing left a slight residue on the knife blade. I am almost sure, now, that the 100% wholemeal requires much longer baking. Leaving the oven door ajar for some of the 20 minutes in a turned-off oven was an improvement, though, so it seems I need to fine tune all these learnings. It was really encouraging to read about the intensity of your baking experience with a single recipe before you achieved consistency. Now I am able to be more realistic and to remind myself that none of my "failed" loaves has been inedible. ValerieC

pmccool's picture
pmccool

1. How much water did you add, beyond what the recipe called for?

2. How long during the bake was the Dutch oven covered and how long was it uncovered?

Those two factors haven't been mentioned, or I missed them.  Each would have a bearing on the finished bread.

Paul

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

Hello Paul. My apologies for my late response to your questions. I found it necessary to add quite a bit more water to the dough in order to incorporate all the flour - probably a reflection of the coarseness of the flour. In all, it was probably about 270g extra of water. In fact your question has shown up a deficiency in my approach. I obviously need to keep much more detailed notes as I move towards being a better baker. I left the lid on the D/O for about 57 minutes in order to avoid excessive browning of the top crust. I left the lid off for a further 30 minutes baking, then removed the loaves from the D/O and left them in a turned-off oven for a further 20 minutes to dry out. This weekend's bread was an improvement on the previous attempt and I am beginning to think that 100% wholemeal requires much longer baking. ValerieC

pmccool's picture
pmccool

If I have referenced the same recipe from drogon that you used, there's a total of 575g of flour (100+400+75) and 360g of water (285+75).  Note that I have included the flour and water quantities in the 150g of 100% hydration starter.  Consequently, his formula is 360/575 = 0.626, or 63% hydration with a little rounding.

You added 270g of water.  That, for this formula, would raise the hydration level to 110% hydration.  I'm astounded that you could shape anything that wet into a loaf, even if it is 100% wholemeal.  And not at all surprised that it would take a long time to bake that much water out of the loaf.  (Note that drogon's formula that I reference here calls for 100g wholemeal and 400g bread flour.)  If you are using a different formula, then the numbers all change but the underlying math stays the same. 

If it is possible for you to post some from an upcoming bake, it would be very helpful to see photographs of each stage of the dough development.  From your description, it sounds as though you are doing something similar to what my students do but in the opposite direction.  They typically want to keep adding flour to get rid of the stickiness whereas you have added more water to moisten the flour.  In both cases, it could be a matter of not being sure what dough consistency is desired and overcompensating to arrive at a perceived "correct" result.  I've done this before, too, and wasn't happy with the results of my efforts.

Could you tell us some more about the flour, itself, please?  Things like protein content, whether it was stone-ground or roller milled (which may not be stated on the label), whether the flour is coarse and gritty or a fine powder, whether there are big flakes of bran, the type of wheat (hard or soft red, hard or soft white, or durum), etc.  Don't worry if you don't have answers to all of those; just tell us what information you do have.

I'm still not sure that the dough had risen enough before it went into the oven but we can pursue that after we talk some more about the formula you used and the flour you have.

Paul

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

Hello Paul. My apologies for my tardy reply. I have been away from home. In response to your comments, it really was necessary to add the extra water to incorporate all the loose,  unmoistened flour. After doing so, the resulting dough had the same feel as 70% hydration doughs that I have made - tacky but not really sticky. It was quite easy to work with a dough scraper. Your questions about the flour are very relevant, I feel. I buy the flour from a middle-eastern bulk store. It is not stone ground and the bran flakes are very large - roughly 2mm in diameter. I sifted a 250 ml cup of the flour and found that this amount contains 28g of bran. Unfortunately, there is nothing on the package that gives any details about the flour, apart from the words: " wholemeal flour for manufacturing purposes only." I have made loaves that included a portion of flour that had been sifted to remove the bran and the end result was much more satisfactory. Perhaps I will have to abandon my aim to produce a 100% wholewheat loaf. I'm still working on the photograph. Not easy for the original technophobe! Many thanks for your interest and input, Paul. ValerieC

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

PS I have just received a little more info from the manufacturer of the flour I use, which might be useful. Protein content is 11.33%. Dietary fibre 10.6g per 100g. Ash 1.20%. Moisture 12.40%. The flour is not organic or biodynamic or stoneground. It is described as " a creamy fine powder with light brown bran flakes. Not terribly informative, I admit, but perhaps it will give you some idea of the quality of my base ingredient. ValerieC