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Slashing technique for sourdough batards and baguettes

Mason's picture
Mason

Slashing technique for sourdough batards and baguettes

My sourdough baguettes and batards rise well, and have a good moist crumb, but I can't seem to get the slashes to "open" or "bloom"  and have ears.  (Images from today's typical batch are below.)

I know this is mostly asthetics, but it's the one challenge I can't seem to get right.  What can I do differently?

Overall method: This is about 75% hydration, sourdough, with about 30% of the flour whole wheat and 5% of it rye.  Cold autolyze overnight the flour with all but 50g or the water, while white starter is fed.  In the morning, mix (all but 75g) starter and autolyzed foulr/water with 50g water, mix gently and let rest for 20 minutes.  Then add salt, mix well, S&F 3-4 times, then ferment at room temp (76°) for 3-4 hours, shape and rise in bannetons (2 different sizes) another 1.5 hours. Slash and bake with steam at 460°F for 5 minutes then turn heat down to 420° for another 10 minutes. Rotate and bake another 15-20 minutes until 200°F inside.

When slashing I use a lame with razor blade, holding the blade at about a 30° angle from the surface of the loaves, trying to go in very slight angles down the loaves, almost but not quite parallel to the length of the loaf, about 6-8 inches long and an inch or two across. Slashing is done immediately before I put them in the oven, add boiling water to a preheated tray of lava rocks, and close the oven.

Should I try deeper cuts?  longer or shorter final rise?

I really don't know what to change to get better "ears" on my scoring.  Suggestions would be welcome, please.

 

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Those are really beautiful, actually, but I understand what it is you are trying to achieve. Question - have you ever baked bread in a covered Dutch oven or other pre-heated covered cast iron thing like that? And if you have, did you get good ears on the bread? The reason I'm asking is that there might be too much top heat (i.e. the loaves might be too close to the top element in your oven) when you bake these batards, and the slashes are setting before ears form. When you bake in a Dutch oven the top of the loaf is protected somewhat from this direct heat. Just a thought.

Mason's picture
Mason

 

I have baked in a dutch oven like that, but not for many years.  I don't currently have one (but I do have a huge teracotta plant-pot I used to preheat and invert over a round loaf set on a pizza stone.  But that was before I switched to using lava rocks to make steam, and wanted the loaves open to that steam.

A batch of loaves like this wouldn't fit under there, though.  I'm hoping to figure out how to make them "bloom" while still making 2 or 3 loaves in a bake.

I could do an experiment and drop the shelf with pizza stones down a level in the oven.  That might be something to try, I guess.  thanks.

 

Edit:  this is the oven setup. 1 1/2 square pizza stones above a tray of lava stones. 

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Yes, it looks like the loaves might indeed be too close to the top element, particularly if it comes on shortly after you put them in (to compensate for the heat loss when you open the oven door). It would be good if you could move that rack down one more notch; hopefully there's room still for the steam tray. Pull the steam tray right to the front so you can still get at it, and try filling it with a long-spouted watering can or tea kettle.

Also, you could try covering the loaves with a large roasting pan, if you can find one that fits in all dimensions.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

into an old narrow bread form/tray and set them onto the stone.   

I would first lower the baking stone a notch.  Shove the steam tray with shelf over the baking stones somewhere between the top of the oven and the baking stone to preheat.  When oven is hot, remove shelf and place steam tray at one end of the baking stone.  Then load bread and add hot water to steam tray.  

I would like to add that I love the way the loaves look already and would be worth noting for yourself how this "look" is achieved.  When you get an ear, note again the oven set up to achieve that "look."   

The scoring could be helped along if you score to lift up the dough skin as you score.   Think more like removing the dough skin  (compared to just angle scoring)  as you cut.  

Mason's picture
Mason

That image of peeling the skin is very helpful.

I have a new batch beginning (cold autolysing and feeding starter) right now.  I'll be baking tomorrow evening.

I'm going to try with the pizza stones lower, and the steam rack at the top.  I don't want to put even a narrow tray at the side, as I usually use the whole pizza stone platform for baking (3 loaves).

Having the tray of lava stones at the top, to protect the loaves from the heating element, as Lance suggested below, seems like the thing to try first.  That, and cutting a much more shallow cut than I have been making.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

First of all, the loaves look very nice. Your photos and description of your formula and procedures help a lot. I wish every one asking for help provided such complete information.

Okay. How about getting some ears? I would eliminate proofing issues because of the very nice bloom and crust color. I would eliminate steaming issues because of the crust. It's sufficiently shiny. And, again, the nice oven spring and bloom.

I think you want something like this, right?

That leaves problems with the scoring. Now 75% hydration is on the high side (although less so because of the whole grain content of your dough,) so you want a shallower cut - 1/4 inch. A 30 degree angle should do it, but, since it's not doing it, I'd try for 20 degrees. Remember: No more than 1/4" deep and cut just with the corner of your razor, not the whole blade.

I would call your attention to one feature of your bloom: The color of the crust is consistently dark. In fact, it's about as dark as the un-bloomed crust. That means 1) the bloom occurred very early in the bake, and 2) the bloom occurred all at once rather than gradually. That is not the way it's supposed to work. It means either the ear never formed or it formed and then collapsed, covering up the exposed crust under it. If you have a glass window on your oven door, try watching your loaves during the first 15-18 minutes of the bake.

FYI, when I've watched my loaves, I find that the oven spring occurs mostly at 10 to 20 minutes into the bake. For an 800 g bâtard, I would remove my steaming skillet at 15 minutes. Watching the loaves, a lot of oven spring and ear rising occurs after I remove the skillet. 

Hmmmm ... Why don't you try removing your tray of lava rocks after 12-15 minutes, if you are not doing that already.

If you haven't already read the following tutorials, you might find them helpful:

Scoring Bread: An updated tutorial In particular, read the last section on getting ears.

Scoring Bread made with high-hydration dough

Well, I hope some of this helps. Do update us on your progress.

Happy baking!

David

Mason's picture
Mason

Thanks, David.

I’m sure some of my method here is based on posts of yours. 

I’ll check out those tutorials.  I’ll also try removing the lava rocks after 10 minutes. 

I’m curious what, mechanically, that does, though. I rotate the loaves after the first 12-15 minutes, and it seems that most of the spring has happened by then and the loaves have the shape and openness of crust scoring they end up with. 

So if there is more spring to happen after that stage, it seems that the crust is so sealed that it does not enable the slashes to open any further.  So perhaps removing the steam-source helps the loaves open further after this stage. 

I imagined that leaving the rocks in the oven (and so keeping the oven very slightly steamy) would help keep the crust from solidifying too soon.  This is a reason I use quite a bit of boiling water on the rocks initially (probably 2-3 cups–I pour directly from the just-boiled kettle and don’t measure it.). Also my oven does not seal in the steam well, so I figured more water would be a good thing. 

I also thought leaving the rocks in would help preserve the temperature by keeping hot mass in the oven, so the temperature recovers more quickly after opening the oven door. But perhaps a slightly lower temp is not so bad at this stage of the bake?

Perhaps that is indeed the issue, then. I will remove the rocks when I rotate the loaves at 12 minutes and see what happens.

I’ll also get my wife or son to take photographs while I rotate the loaves, to detect if more spring is happening after that stage. (My oven does have a glass window, but my oven light is blown and the cover is so well-stuck-on that it has become a “gumption trap” that prevented bulb replacement. So it’s hard to see much without opening the door. This is a reason to try getting that darn cover off again, I guess. Then I can try watching the loaves more closely during the first while.)

I suspect it’s my scoring itself that at least partly the issue. 

I’ll try a shallower cut angle.

I might also be going deeper than 1/4 inch I’ll try making the cuts shallower in that sense, too. 

I should also try making one long lengthwise cut on one loaf from the batch, too. Perhaps that method enables more opening. 

But my next task is obviously to study those tutorials.  Thanks again! 

Edit:  after studying the tutorial and video of you scoring, I’m definitely cutting too deep, so a lot of the opening happens before the loaves enter the oven. Shallower cuts next time. I’ll update with results. 

mutantspace's picture
mutantspace

.I always lightly mist my loaves before putting into oven. Insures that crust will not harden before bloom. And be sure not to cut too deep....

albacore's picture
albacore

I have my steaming tray above the loaves. The steam "falls down" onto the top of the loaves and this seems to do the trick. My full width steam tray also covers the top heating element which may also be a good thing. I remove it after 15 - 20 minutes to then encourage browning.

For me I would say that oven spring and gringe formation happen in those first 15 - 20 mins.

Lance

 

Mason's picture
Mason

Nice loaves.

That’s not a bad setup.  I’ll try that. loaves lower, steam above. 

What are you using in the steam tray there?  Brick?

Having the mass of stones in the top will keep some heat above the loaves, without them being too high in the oven.  That mass above the bread would be good for making pizza too. 

And then you can remove the mass of stones and steam after the first few minutes. And the loaves are lower in the oven for the final part of the bake. 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Look at the two-tone coloration of the grigne (bloom) of Lance's bâtards. That shows that their ears were still lifting even after the crust began to form. That is the result of the good scoring technique you are after.

David

albacore's picture
albacore

The steam tray contains two rustic terracotta tiles. Each tile is 6" sq x 3/4" thick. They are very porous and soak up the boiling water like a sponge and give it up freely as steam. They are also very compact in storage, unlike lava rocks.

I'm surprised no one seems to have used them before. Note that they are not at all the same as quarry tiles, which look similar, but are non-porous and not suitable.

Lance

bigcrusty's picture
bigcrusty

Your loaves look great.  I had the opportunity to work a morning in a bakery with an Artisan Baker and asked about scoring.  He told me to use a heavy hand and it wouldn't hurt the loaf.  I usually slash very deep with my lame and close to perpendicular.  It works!

Regards,

Big Crusty

Mason's picture
Mason

I rearranged the oven and sliced more shallowly.  It seems to have worked.  Sort of.

The slashing was shallow (sorry these images turned out sideways):

And the loaves opened slowly with defined grigne.

But because the loaves were lower in the oven and closer to the bottom element, the heat was a bit too much underneath.  The bottoms burned.  Not significantly, but more than I'd like.

Next time I'll try my original oven setup, and maybe lower the heat just slightly, but with the better slicing technique, and perhaps all will be well.

Thanks again for all your advice.  I appreciate your taking the time and effort to help me learn something.  

Now I just need to practice. Baguettes next time.

Edit: now the loaves have cooled, i find that the steam from above and the cooler heat has made the crust paper thin.  Good even open internal structure too.  I'm very happy with these loaves.  

Lowering the heat overall might be enough to prevent burning on the bottom, if I keep this oven arrangement. I think Ill try that.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

underneath was keeping the stone slightly cooler.  

So many options to try.... here are just 3

  • A sheet of foil under the stone perhaps and still use high heat.
  • A thicker stone to bake on and perhaps a little smaller so it doesn't crowd the side walls.  Edit:  Trimming a centimetre off the edge of the stone might help heat circulate from the bottom to the top of the oven and possibly prevent the thermostat from turning the upper heat on too soon.  Hard call to make.  Could try the old set up with less stone surface (more gap) and only one  or two loaves to see if the top sets slower for a lighter browning in the split.  
  • Hang the steam tray close under the wire shelf and drop the baking stone shelf down one notch from original middle position.
albacore's picture
albacore

Yes, I thought your baking stones looked a bit thinner than mine, which is 3/4". Thicker stones (expensive) or perhaps a sheet of 1/8" steel underneath?

Also you could try the dodge where you initially overheat the oven and turn it down as you put the loaves in, so the elements don't come on for a while.

Mason's picture
Mason

I have usually let the oven come back to 460 for 5 minutes, and then turned it down.  I'll just turn it down to 420 immediately, to avoid the bottom heat coming back on so intensely.

Fearandloafing's picture
Fearandloafing

after my final shape i let my loaf sit out and skin over for about 20 mins, sometimes even gently rubbing some flour into it, this will create a thick almost parchment feeling skin, afterwoods i then turn into my banentons. After  turning out, when im scoring I can really feel the difference, it's like cutting a flap of skin! Really curls back in the oven this way

Mason's picture
Mason

 Good idea. 

I just made baguettes today and had problems with the slicing because the skin was so moist and sticky. I was just thinking that leaving it to dry for a few minutes would have made it a lot easier to slice.

I will try that next time

Wartface's picture
Wartface

Teresa Greenway got me started creating steam for my loaves this way. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-4PHUyRmpPc

I used to use the Dutch Oven method but this is easier. 

I use the same roaster top she does for bastards and baguettes but I use a Stainless Steel mixing bowl turned upside down for boules.

Wartface's picture
Wartface

 

Mason's picture
Mason

i used a very wide but shallow terra-cotta plant pot (with drainage hole plugged by tinfoi)  to cover boules. When preheated, it holds the heat evenly and also traps steam. 

But I usually bake larger batches of bread 2-3 loaves nowadays, which makes the tray of lava stones more feasible.