The Fresh Loaf

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Still Having some Doubts on my Fermenting and/or Proofing

philm63's picture
philm63

Still Having some Doubts on my Fermenting and/or Proofing

Been a bit dismayed at my last several bakes as my loaves have been getting more and more dense lately, so I'm rebuilding my process and starting back at the basics.

Just completed a bake with my new levain build (3-stage) with my new experimental recipe - 70% hydration batch with 40% levain (20% fermented flour). Trying to get a batch that will rise properly and give a decent crumb.

I made a 2kg batch and divided it - one piece for a loaf pan and the other for a boule. All KA bread flour, levain is 100% with all KA AP. Very active levain this time - so far so good.

My basic process is combine flour and water, autolyse for 30 minutes, add levain and salt and mix very well for a few minutes (equivalent to a few stretch and folds or maybe 5 minutes of soft kneading) and let rest for 2 hours (bulk ferment) with a few S&Fs to develop the dough), all at room temp. Then scale and rough shape, cover for 10 minutes, then final shape, cover for 10 minutes, and into a banneton for the first piece and a loaf pan for the other piece.

Even at 40% levain, these loaves took around 9 hours to proof. Of course I still do not know how to tell if my loaves are properly proofed yet, but they showed an appreciable increase in volume (a little more than double), and the boule passed a poke test (indent came back slowly). 

The boule baked up nicely; good oven spring, nice! Of course it was proofed in a banneton - upside-down -The loaf pan appeared also to have good spring, but after a few hours of cooling I could see that the top was quite hollow - overproofed for sure.

I think I may still be overproofing my loaves, but it's frustrating - I just don't seem to be getting a good rise - my loaves are not nearly as airy as I want. I think my problem is somewhere in the benchwork or fermenting - when I place the loaves into their pans or bannetons, they are very small and dense, not airy or billowy as I'd expect, so a doubling in size still does not fill the pan as I'd expect it to.

I'm handling my dough as gently as I can during my benchwork so as to not degas it too much. But it just isn't airy on the bench so when it comes to proofing, I'm starting out with a pretty small dense dough. Help?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

"Even at 40% levain, these loaves took around 9 hours to proof."

Tell us about the starter and how it is maintained.  Maybe we can find something to help boost the yeast numbers back up.   :)

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

You say it took 9 hours to prove with 40% levain. But you also say it took 9 hours to prove a little more than double. 

It should never take 9 hours outside the fridge and you shouldn't be final proofing to more than double. It should be just under double for an all bread flour and less with wholemeal. 

And another thing... when you bulk ferment for two hours are you doing so because the dough is ready after two hours or its just the alloted time you came up with?

Perhaps do a post with photos and comments of every stage including the levain build. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

That is called gluten development. Then let the dough rest for 2 hours for bulk ferment.  At the end of 4 hours the dough should rise between 50% and 75% if a white bread.  Then pre-shape and shape.  Let the dough proof until it is 90% risen for white bread - never 100%.  The bake ta 450 F for 20 minutes with steam or covered DO and then lower the temp to 425 F convection if you have it and continue to bake for about 10-15 minutes for the boule till it hits at least 206 F in the inside.  It will likely take linger for the tinned loaf.

All your bread troubles will have melted away.  It think you are just having a hard time knowing when the dough is properly fermented and proofed.  

philm63's picture
philm63

and the total time from mixing the levain and salt in was 4 hours because that seemed to be what most folks were writing on forums such as this, and I have to assume it was working for them, but it wasn't working for me, and still isn't.

I deduced it was my starter (levain); not just the amount in percentage, but the quality, too. So I started from scratch - same original mother I started a year ago which is fed about once a week and kept in the fridge - took it out of the fridge and let it sit for several hours to come to room temperature, and took a portion (20g) and started a new "pre-levain build" meaning I was building up the strength of my starter before doing the actual levain I would used for my next bake. I did this over 3 days feeding it at 1:2:2 every 12 hours - it seemed so much healthier than previous levains. I maintain my starter at 100% with KA AP flour.

So I was not suspecting my yeast colony any longer because my levain was tripling within 6 hours after each feeding - I thought that was pretty darn good compared to previous attempts - I'd never seen my levain act this way before so I thought I was good to go.

Wrong!

Is there anything else I can do to get a starter that explodes like I've seen in pictures and read about here? Should it be bubbling like a volcano a few hours after a feeding? If so, then I am definitely doing something wrong.

Sorry; just frustrated.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Do 4 S& F's on 30 minute intervals that get you to the 2 hour mark then let the dough sit undisturbed until it rises 75% for bulk ferment .  Then shape and proof and don't let it go past 90% before baking.  No problems.

philm63's picture
philm63

out of a plain ol' All Purpose flour starter? By adding rye or WW flour to a starter, are you giving it a much better chance at being active enough to raise a dough as one would expect?

It seems that no matter what I've tried of late, my starters just poop out before the work is done. It's strange to me because in beer brewing, the wort is inoculated with such a small amount of yeast when compared to the total volume of wort, but so much fermentation takes place as a result of prime conditions that I sometimes get blow-off out of the fermenter. Now THAT's volcanic activity! I don't see that in my starters, and I certainly do not see that in my loaves. I know the activity takes place on a smaller scale in bread making, but  c'mon; the yeast I presently have just don't seem up to task. 

I'll keep plugging away at this; an engineer rarely gives up until the answer is found, no? I'll try that fermenting until 75%, and in the mean time I am starting a NMNF starter - checking the temp on my oven now with just the light on and the door closed - I may have a perfect proofer already!

Thanks, Dab (et al.) for helping to keep me on the straight and narrow - I'll get this thing - no way these wee beasties are gonna whoop this guy!

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

please track the temperature over a period of time, and you also might want to track it with the door cracked open with either on oven-mitt or a heat-safe spoon or something else holding it ajar.

My oven lights will bring the temp of the oven well over 100 deg F over time - with temps gradually climbing over 90 minutes.  I can get it to climb to and hold at a steady 78 deg F with the door held open about 1/2 ".

I didn't do my homework and track my temps long enough, and so assumed that it would hold at the happy 83 deg F that it hit in the first hour that I tried with the door fully closed and the lights on --- and ended up with a tray full of dough floating in melted butter and sugar and cinnamon when I tried to proof some cinnamon buns in the oven with the lights on and the door closed (dabrownman dubbed them my "butter puddle buns").  Hopefully you'll be able to track it longer and so you won't run in to a similar issue!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

 3 days feeding it at 1:2:2 every 12 hours     That is a problem if your starter temperature is over 70°F.  

Me, I rarely feed my starters 1:2:2 for 12 hours counter time at 75°F.   They would putter out and I would risk the yeast attacking itself for lack of food.   I feed more like 1:4:5  or 1:5:5 or 1:8:10 depending on the temperature and when building yeast, feed at peak or shortly after when the starter starts to level out before falling.  A few times in a row will build yeast.

But I usually vary the feed so that it peaks around 8 hours leaving a few hours for the acid to build if left out and fed on a 12 hrs schedule.  If I need it sooner, I will feed it enough flour food to have it peeking sooner.  If I want it even faster I up the hydration.  Slower, lower the hydration.   Try feeding the starter so that it peeks at 8 hours.  If it peaks sooner give it more flour to feed on for the next feeding and play around to fit your schedule.  Temperature plays a big role and you can play with it.  If you have cool nights and warm days.  Feed before the day warms up and then feed less at night or skip it if the temp drops below 70°F.  You can also feed less flour for overnight when cooler or use cold water, or warm to slow down or speed up fermentation respectfully.    I think your starter could use a few days on the counter top to just get back into shape.  Then when it is predictable and behaving nicely, feed it, let it start to rise about 1/3 and then chill it for a mother starter.

Starting a starter and maintaining a starter are two different kinds of feeding schedules.  One very little, the other with more yeast and more flour.  

I see you are going to try the NMNF method. sounds like a plan for a while and see if it works for you. 

Mini

mgirard's picture
mgirard

Sorry for such a simple question, but when mention feeding your starter in a 1:4:5 ratio, in what order are the starter, flour and water?

Thanks,

Martin

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Starter : Water : Flour

Don't apologise. We've all been there. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

ratio  (s:w:f)   (1:4:5)   (starter:water:flour)

You are correct in asking for clarity as many book authors will use (starter:flour:water) and some bakers as well.