June 27, 2017 - 6:58pm
Low hydration starter
I keep my starter at 100%. But I'm trying to learn about lower hydration cultures. I have mixed them to 50 or 60%, but I have no idea what to expect in terms of rise between feeding. I'm getting a dough ball and they don't seem to get larger. I have noticed then getting lighter in weight and less dense.
Are there any threads on the forum that deal with this? I've looked in vain and not found much.
What should I expect when feeding a low hydration culture on the counter and how often should I feed it to get it strong enough to refrigerate.
Will lower hydration starters last better in the refrigerator?
Will they have a different taste than higher hydration?
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Or Levain build will expand as much, if not more, than a liquid starter. Are you leaving it for long enough?
How dry should low hydration be mixed?
I have left it out for days watching it. It get lighter and a little more loose in texture, but it isn't changing from the golf ball sized lump that I initially mixed. I know the culture ( when originally mixed) was good because I took it from a high hydration one that is raising bread very well.
Although it does regularly go through some changes as lately I've been just taking a piece of dough after the bulk ferment as my starter has no problem in tripling when at 50% hydration. A typical build will be...
10g starter + 25g water + 50g flour (40g bread flour + 10g whole wheat or whole rye flour)
Kneaded into a dough ball and placed into a small Tupperware container. Depending on how long it's been in the fridge it'll typically triple in 4-6 hours (if it's not too long between feeds) or 8-12 hours (although I can't hang around to keep an eye on it - say... through the night) if it's been quite a while since the last feed.
It will always grow like a dough in a recipe.
I'm going to try one now. It won't be quite 50%, but close.
10g of 100% starter + 25g water + 50g flour.
Question --- I use 100% rye and grind it myself. Is this maybe affecting the hydration making it more stiff? I'm thinking that ground whole grain rye absorbs a lot of water.
will absorb more water. It does take a little kneading and some effort for me to get the dough ball but eventually it all comes together and with a bit more kneading it resembles a normal dough. By all means go to 55-60% if you think it needs it. Doesn't have to be 50% hydration to get the benefits of a stiff starter. Go a bit by feel.
in case you're interested....
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6860/audrey-2-saga-feed-2
But interestingly enough he used a stiff starter and fed it 50g water + 50g rye. It is a stiff Rye starter due to the stiff starter he used but the feed was 100% hydration. It also appears that he didn't cover it but I'm assuming here and from the way it looks.
My stiff starter rises lot and it is no longer in the ball shape. It fills the container and grows up the sides.
But yes! all starters are different and although visually they aren't the same it doesn't mean both either one isn't mature.
Here are 2 images of my starter ball. I used Lechem's directions and went 10g + 25g + 50g. I took this image after it was just mixed. And now 8 hours later @ 70 degrees it looks the same.
The 10g of starter (100% using freshly ground rye) that I built if from is active. It doubles in about 3 1/2 hr. Do you think I may need to lower the hydration progressively? Maybe 19 + 38 + 50?
I've had great success with the 100%, but not doing so well with the lower hydration. I own a Brod and Taylor Proofing Box so I can increase the temperature if need be. A few days ago I tried the low hydration @ 85 degrees with no success as far as I can tell.
Any Thoughts?
Thanks for the informative link Mini...
Can someone explain why the image below is upside down? I even tried rotating the image upside down on my computer before uploading and still it inserts upside down.
It looks dried out. I'd also be interested what it looks like inside when cut open. Perhaps it has still matured. Either cut it open and see or pour a little water over it to hydrate the dried outer layer (carefully pour off the excess) then cover and leave. Wait and see what happens till tomorrow.
I think iphone flips the images. Not sure why. Some have success in posting upside down and then it comes the right way up.
I'll do a starter build over the weekend and post it here.
I use Weck Jars and they have a loose fitting glass cover. I don't use the gasket that comes with it, but it does fit loose enough to allow a small amount of air.
The ball is hydrated even though it may not look like it.
I'm going to use a proofing box set to 78° overnight and check in the morning.
Your help is a real asset to me. Thanks again for your time and patience.
it will come around. The lowering of hydration slows things down for a bit but then the population will increase.... wait, did you write 70°F? The temp will also slow it and the combination... Try a little bit warmer around 75° F or a few degrees more.
Typically the first feed takes longer and progressive feeds will speed up and shorten when all conditions are equal. Watch the starter. Pay attention to aromas and rye typically cracks open as it sags and matures.
Thanks Mini, I'll try the proofer.
and my horrible vision and lack of depth perception, but I have a really hard time discerning volume changes in balls of dough. I run a 67% hydration rye starter and a 60% hydration durum starter, and I end up flattening them both out to cover the bottom of their containers and have a basically level surface, so that I can mark their beginning height and easily see even minor changes in volume. You might find it easier to see what is happening with yours if you try flattening it out, as well.
I also find that they tend to be a bit sluggish for the first feed out of the fridge, especially if the ambient temps are below 75 deg. Getting them in the 80 deg range speeds things up dramatically - to doubling within 3 to 4 hours.
Good luck with yours - and please keep posting the photos (they'll make a great reference for future).
I'm going to flatten the ball and mark the level with tape.
I've also set the proofer to 82°.
My starter ball is 55° hydration. I cracked it open after 24 hours @ 73° and it is not dried out and it didn't have any measureable rise.
Sorry about the upside down image. I'm contacting Floyd about this. It happens to me often. I use IrfanView software for images and maybe that causes a problem.
With a gradual decrease in hydration? Start with your strong 100% hydration starter and build a Levain of 90% hydration. When that has matured then onto 80% hydration etc.
I bring it down to 87% and let you know what happens.
10g (100% starter) + 8g + 10g
must be the photo virus affecting the math... :)
if 10g is the starter and 10g is the water, 8g the flour then the hydration is over 125% or more liquid than the starter.
I would try 10g starter (100%) 20g water and 30g flour for 71% hydration (25/35=0.71)
Then with the next feed take 10g stiff starter (70%) 20g water and 27g flour to get the same hydration (23/32= 0.72)
See how that "feels." If you find it too dry, then up the water a tiny bit. I still find this a rather low starter to flour ratio (almost one to three) for an overnight feeding at 23°C (75°F) It may clock in well under 6 hrs.
for a liquid starter to make the change to a firm starter. Don't rush it. Slap the cut open starter back together and it will come around. You might also want to try the gradual reduction just described.
Rye will not expand very much after the passing of 8 hours good fermentation (the matrix breaks down) but you may notice the aroma changing as it matures and cracks open letting gasses escape. Dusting the ball with flour will help you to see cracks forming on the surface. The hydration used is one for long cold storage. Add enough flour to the liquid starter to still have a dough starter and not packed crumbs if you want it fermented in a day.
Don't throw out the firm starter whatever you do. You can put it into the fridge for cold storage and it will mature slowly in a couple of weeks., or months for use later. Toss in a spoon of flour to keep it dry screw down the lid.
The way I fix my upside down photos is to take a screen shot and then turn the shot. Delete the cockeyed photo and replace it. Can also add arrows, lines and writing while turning and cropping. Ask Floyd kindly for the "Edit" function if you don't have it. :)
Yesterday I lowered a 100% culture to 87% and it grew well. I just lowered that to 75% and if it grows well I'll lower once again to 60%. I think this will work for me.
In the past lowering 100% culture to 60 or 50% didn't grow, so I'm trying to progressively lower the hydration in steps.
I appreciate your help
Dan
We have a post similar but I ran across this first so here it is:
http://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/the-myth-of-double-in-size/
This info stresses my brain before a second cup of coffee but just looking at the drawings gives the general idea. Round shapes are hard to judge volume. I say it often enough myself. But a little ball of dough starter has other ways of indicating maturity. And they are so much fun to pull apart with a fork! Be sure to poke the ball and even pick it up while it is fermenting. Smell it, lightly try to squish it without breaking the surface "skin." Fun, all in the name of science. :)
Oh, almost forgot.... a little firm whole grain rye ball of starter at a lower hydration than 80% will not "double." Don't want to give the impression that it should. It will more likely loose its round shape and crack open. It should smell nutty fruity and yeasty and more toward pungent as it ferments.
Still not sure if the starter is acting correctly. I progressed from 100 -> 87 -> 75 and finally to 60% hydration. All went well with the visual growth of the starter, until I went to 60%. The growth was barely visible.
I refed and am testing now with the lump flattened with a tape marker to show the growth. I also added a slight coating of milled rye flour to the surface.
I kept the remainder of the ball and re-kneaded and put back into the proofer. The proofer is now set to 80°.
Is there a problem with flattening out the starter and marking the jar so I can better see what is going on?
Do you think the rye may be affecting the outcome of the low hydration culture?
to almost stop fermentation. I do this when I want to "hibernate" my starter or prepare it for traveling. I would also keep it cooler than 80° F as that tends to promote more bacteria over yeast growth. What I do is basically double the volume of active starter with water and then pinch in enough flour to make crumbs that can still stick together. Then wrap it up and put it away for months at a time with no counter time before chilling. Then hydrate when I want to use the starter several days prior to baking. Certainly takes the stress out of constantly feeding a starter several times a day. For the occasional baker, very practical.
You should be able to hydrate the starter ball (or puck or disk) with some water and speed things up a little.
Shape, interesting thought. I prefer balls because there is no real discerning of rise during fermentation and the outer layers can shield and protect the inside core better. I've had dried up balls with time but the inner core could easily be hydrated as it stayed somewhat moist. (In a tightly sealed cold jar.)
For weekly or bi-weekly bakes, I keep the starter (Mother) firm but more like a stiff dough. It is then used to inoculate levains (starters) for baking after about 4 days in the refrigerator. The refreshed Mother starter is allowed to show signs of life first, about 1/3 risen (that is one third increase of original volume) before being slowed down by chilling.
Using a proofer makes me curious... what is your exact room temperature? If it is around 70° or lower, you might want to experiment with liquid starters. I mean really wet ones. :)
100% starters work well for me. I had good success baking with these.
I took some 100% and made some 87% then took that and went to 75% and finally to 60%. All of the starters seemed to rise well until I went to the 60% version. On my last try I feed the 60% version (whole milled rye) and proofed @ 80° for 10 hours. I pushed it down flat in the jar so that I could measure the rise. It looks like it rose no more that 25%.
How much should a healthy 60% rye starter take to double? Maybe I'm expecting too much from it.
It's confusing to me because all other attempts down to 75% have worked really well.
as rye needs a certain amount of hydration to build the protein bonds to stretch and rise. If those bonds are built, they break down fast with fermentation. Rye is not wheat. The hydration varies for maximum stretch... (my words, I get confused between elasticity and extensibility) somewhere between 80 and 90% hydration... a narrower estimate would be between 83 and 85 or 87%. But it depends on the flour protein and ash content of the rye flour.
The matrix can literally double or even triple the volume of a 100% rye loaf but it has also a very short working window especially with sourdough only and everything temp, hydration, acidity, yeast numbers, salt, all have to be lined up for that perfect moment. That is why so many recipes include added yeast and acid when rise is desired. Again, too much yeast rising too fast can rip the matrix apart.
I don't know if you noticed but rye also gets stiffer sooner in the fridge than wheat and stretches better a few degrees warmer in temperature than what is ideal for wheat. Cool temps slow down yeast but stiffen the dough. It's all a matter of playing with the variables. The same goes for watching the starter only no salt is involved so it is more risky to catch a high rise but that doesn't mean there isn't enough yeast existing in the starter to raise a loaf.
So if you take away water, in this case reduce the hydration of the starter, there won't be much rise as the chance for trapping gas reduces with the hydration under 80%. As it falls to 60% rye dough is just too stiff to rise, the grain particles have absorbed the water, the yeast need also a minimum amount of water to reproduce and the clock is ticking on enzymes degrading the matrix.
I don't lean too heavy on the matrix, we are abusing it. Don't expect any rise after 8 hours of enzyme attack.
One has to look for other signs of fermentation to determine when the starter yeast have chewed through the available food. Better to be on the safe side and not feed too early. It takes time for the bacteria to lower pH for the benefits acid provide and letting the starter protect itself and lower the pH before fresh flour is introduced. Cracks are typical of rye. This is how the gas escapes. For rise, one has to prevent the cracks from forming in the starter. You can do that by
Thanks for your help, Mini.
I placed a 60% rye starter ball in a container of rye flour.
This was left overnight @ 80°. Is this what I should expect from a healthy culture? How often should I feed this when left out ?
Or should I make the low hydration starter with some or all Whole Wheat or other grain like Spelt?
Your patience with me is much appreciated!
Dan
and how does it taste? I would let it ferment more to really observe it. But in its own jar.
This is your learning experience so try different things. Those are lovely cracks. How's the aroma?
"How often should I feed this when left out ?"
What temp is it when left out? It will ferment fast or slow depending on the ambient temperature. While traveling... I've had them happy for days before having to feed them even without refrigeration (although it helps when you can't find flour.) I still have one in the fridge here (Laos) Dated....Dec 2015. I better locate it. I lost it moving from one apartment to another with a fridge cleaning between. It is an Austria Rye so it's most likely making itself at home no matter what refrigerator it's in. I'll just listen for the knee slapping music and yodelling. :) (Do yeasties have knees?)
I would try putting just a teaspoon of wheat (spelt is a wheat) flour in with the rye when this ball gets all gushy and smelling ripe. See what happens to compare.
the size of a golf ball get a small brown paper bag and bury it in flour and put it on top of the fridge for 7 days and forget about it. I did and forget it to day 8. I cracked it open scooped out the middle and had a Perfect SD WW starter as the result/ I originally called it Ancient Mini's SD starter but she isn't all that Ancient so I changed the name to Mini's Ancient SD Starter . It works every time. Mini had forgotten more about starters, especially ancient ones, than most people even had heard about.
Ancient But Not Mini Oven's No Muss No Fuss 'Leave me Alone' Starter - 8 Days Later