German bakery in need of a assistance with a New York style bagels
Hey all,
I am having no luck with my attempt at making New York style bagels in a commercial environment. I am using Jerffrey Hamelman's bagel recipe from the "A Baker's book of techniques and recipes, 2nd edition". I have attempted the "home" recipe which is based on 1 lb 2.6 oz of flour. It works fine at home in small amounts when done the same day. The problem I'm facing is when I attempt to do an overnight method for larger amounts (3-4-5 kilos), I run into problems. So far, I've wasted 20+ kilos of dough over the last 1.5 months trying to figure this out, I'm loosing so much sleep over this :)
Here are my percentages:
100% flour (3 kilos lets say)
58% water
.5% diastatic malt
2% salt
1.3% yeast
I (tried all together and the sponge method).
I mix everything together, Kneaded it until it's hard and smooth. I then refrigerate it for about 1.5 hours and then take it out, form and shape the bagels and put them back in the fridge overnight. Next day, I took them out, let them site for 1, 2, 3, 4 hours (I tried different timing) and then I do the regular boiling and bake them at 240 in a convection oven. The ones that were done at 1 hour came out most decent, but I keep running into the same darn issue, they look wonderful and everything, but they turn into balls and the holes are no longer there. Though I'm fine with this, the problem is, the center where the holes are raw and then outside is initially crunchy and workable, but after you let them sit for more than 30/45 minutes, the outside turns into rubber and it's hard. The ones that were left out longer 2-3-4 hours are very airy (almost like regular bread). I'm guessing they are getting over proofed?
My question is:
1. What is the best method to prepare this recipe so I can simply pull them out in the morning from the fridge and immediately bake them without having to wait hours? How do other bagel places do this? Is the sponge method completely necessary or can I skip that?
Many thanks for your input!
Hello, sweetclouds, sorry you are having trouble with your bagels. Are you doing a bulk ferment only in the refrigerator? I think you would do better to bulk ferment at room temperature, unless your dough temperature after mixing is more than 80 degrees Fahrenheit (I would still let the dough sit at room temperature for a while, before placing in the refrigerator to give the yeast a kickstart). How are you forming the bagels? Do you have a machine that is portioning and rolling the dough into bagels? Or are you dividing and forming completely by hand? A friend of mine had a bagel bakery, and she had a machine that would divide and form the bagels, but the bagels were then hand-stretched to make sure the hole was big enough.
Also, are you using bagel boards or sheet pans? My friend used perforated sheet pans to bake her bagels in a rotating rack oven. In fact, she froze her bagels overnight, and didn't boil them, but rather sprayed them with water (she used a typical garden pump sprayer for this!), after they had been pulled out of the freezer and left to sit out while the oven came to temperature. She sprayed the bagels right before they went into the oven.
Now, I know that spraying with water is not the same as boiling, and one might even say that it's not really a bagel if it hasn't been boiled. And I am not suggesting that you switch to spraying with water rather than boiling. I am just letting you know what my friend did, and I have to say, her bagels were very tasty and chewy. However, I think the perforated sheet pans would be a big help in resolving your issue with raw centers and overdone outsides. So would stretching the bagels so that you have a large hole prior to proofing. Also, as you are using a convection oven, perhaps you need to turn the temperature down by 5 or 10 degrees.
By the way, what "sponge method" are you talking about? Hamelman's recipe doesn't use a sponge....
Thanks for the awesome tips Corinaesq!
Are you doing a bulk ferment only in the refrigerator? Yes, once I'm done kneading it, about 30 minutes later I put it in the fridge. I'll definitely let it sit out then, how long do you recommend I let it sit out?
How are you forming the bagels? I'm forming them into balls and then poking a hole in the middle and stretching them out (I stretch them almost to the breaking point).
Also, are you using bagel boards or sheet pans? So I just purchased a 4 rack convection oven and they came with 4 metal rack (no holes). I'm placing a baking sheet on the rack first.
My friend used perforated sheet pans to bake her bagels in a rotating rack oven. In fact, she froze her bagels overnight, and didn't boil them, but rather sprayed them with water (she used a typical garden pump sprayer for this!), after they had been pulled out of the freezer and left to sit out while the oven came to temperature. She sprayed the bagels right before they went into the oven. - Very interesting! This would save me some much trouble.
Perforated sheet pans - I will look into this! Mine aren't perforated, unfortunately, but totally makes sense!
Also, as you are using a convection oven, perhaps you need to turn the temperature down by 5 or 10 degrees. I totally did not think about this (I got so frustrated with all my attempts, I was not thinking straight unfortunately). Thank you for this reminder!
By the way, what "sponge method" are you talking about? Hamelman's recipe doesn't use a sponge... At the bottom of the recipe, in fine print, it says "Note: 20% of the overall flour can be pre-fermented in a pâte fermentée". It's the 2nd edition, maybe it's not on the 1st?
Thank you so much for taking the time to write this, I truly appreciate it!
I worked in a bagel shop and we would bulk ferment until they floated. We would then place them in the fridge.
Thanks Greyoldchief!
So bulk ferment, form and shape, then fridge? How long did you guys leave them out before boiling them and baking them next day?
If Hamelman doesn't have the sponge method as anything but a side note, it isn't necessary. Ich bin auch Deutsch, und ich kenne die deutsche Tendenz, Zeug komplizierter zu machen als nötig! As you are refrigerating your bagels overnight, you are already developing the flavor, which is what the sponge would accomplish. In fact, using a sponge may make your dough too strong. By the way, where is your bakery?
Thanks Corinaesq!
It's in Goslar. Unfortunately I don't speak German yet (the wife does) but I did Google translate :)
So totally skip the sponge then eh? And you're right, it's coming out very strong!
I'm thinking the following:
Once done kneading, let it sit for 2 hours on the counter.
Form and shape then refrigerate overnight.
Pull them out next day, let them sit for about 30 minutes and then bake at 230.
What do you guys think?
Get a load of this: I was just about to give you this advice:
bulk ferment 2 hours, no sponge.
shape and fridge overnight
bake at 230.
I would boil right out of the fridge.
Also, the traditional NY bagel is baked in a deck oven on bagel boards (On the boards for about 3 minutes, on the deck 12-15 mins). Boiling in an alkaline solution is helpful for the crust. I use a .015% lye solution. I also recommend the other method of shaping (rolling), as the dough is less likely to bake into a ball if the dough is not first formed into a ball.
Thanks Michael!
I did exactly that yesterday and it came out much better!!
Any idea how many days they can sit in the fridge? I did half the batch this morning, I left the other half in the fridge for tomorrow to see how they turn out.
Once they're formed and shaped, should I leave them to sit out before putting them in fridge and if so how long?
I actually tried the bagel board, unfortunately the brick oven at the bakery is not functioning right so it was very difficult to maintain the temperatures which is why we went with the convection oven.
As for lye, I have yet to try that, but that's definitely on my list.
I also did try the other method (rolling them), unfortunately I'm going to need some practice before I go that route, but agreed, that would fix the balling problem.
Many many thanks for your input, greatly appreciated!
Hey there,
So still trying to figure this darn recipe out. I almost there (I think), but I'm struggling with the outer texture of the bagel. It comes out like leather once baked (initially crispy, but soon as it cools down, it's like leather and hard). I am boiling these in malt syrup and some baking soda, I also tried baking soda alone, I tried honey and baking soda. I tried boiling them from 30 seconds to 2 minutes on each side and I'm still ending up with leather! It's a convection oven and I've tried temps from 240C to 225C. The timing is 18-20 minutes. I'm not sure what else to try at this point, I'm on the verge of completely giving up :(
See my comments on bagels here and subsequent.
Please ask for any clarifications.
gary